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Offline SageDad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 02:22:00 PM »
Quote from: gail;20091
That's good to know Carlos.  If both parents have been ordered to not take the children out of the country and this woman does, then they will be returned.  Unless she takes them to a different country.  Either way I would be on the phone telling whoever I can that I am being threatened by this woman taking my children out of the country and we need an emergency hearing.  Do you have any custody of the children?


Yes, you will need to at least have legal visitation rights to invoke the Hague Convention.  The citizenship of your wife and children is irrelevant for the Hague Convention.  If she abducts to Australia they will almost certainly promptly send the children back.  If she goes to another country she is not a citizen of she will have very few rights there.  Mexico, like many countries, is very quick to expell abductors that aren't Mexican citizens.
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 12:36:17 AM »
Ok, I called legal services of Mo. I will have to call them back with other details, and find out if someone in St. Louis City would do this.   Thanks Tim!!  
Ive checked into filing an emergency hearing with the family courts over this to.  Its not just something you can just make happen. There is a lot of things you have to do first.  Hopefully I can get the hearing before they make the trip after Memorial day.  
Even though I am suppose to have my daughters a couple days each week, my x insist its her right to go to Florida with the girls , because she wants to and my time doesnt matter. Which leads me to worry even more that she really is planning to leave with the.  
She made an attempt to leave with them once before when she first told me she was divorcing me.  I had to get an attorney to file a stay and start the divorce first to keep them here then.  This is the first time since the divorce 6 years ago that I have really thought she was going to do it, and I dont want her to get out and then deal with it.
As for the age of my daughters. They are 6 and 9.  they are the  greatest kids in the world. My youngest just tested and scored very high in gifted. My oldest daughter was suppose to test last year for gifted, but,, and this is a great example of my X wife..  Because the teacher had told me about it first, my X refused to allow the testing.  This year the teacher told my X first, and it became the most important thing in the world to her.    
Its really funny who much you think you know someone before you marry, and who liittle you realize you knew about them after your married, and divorced.   I wouldnt even  befriend much less date a person like her, and yet, I married her??  Go figure lol

dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 12:48:46 AM »
Quote from: carlos;20087
The good news is that you have very little to worry about in terms of international child abduction to Australia.  Australia takes the Hague Convention VERY seriously and is quick to return abducted children or help Australian parents that have had their children abducted.  If I could pick one place for my son to be abducted to it would be Australia.  I would be more concerned about your wife taking you to court and convincing a judge to legally allow her to move to Australia with the children.


I was reading the conditions of the Hague agreement this afternoon.  From what I read, it says only Mainland Australia is part of the agreement. Tasmania and all the outlaying islands are not.  Plus, it would first be Australian courts that would decide if the kidnapped children would be returned.  I could be wrong, and hope I am.

I also read some really good information in a pdf document called

Parental Kidnapping: Prevention and Remedies
from
Legal Consultant
to the
American Bar Association
Center on Children and the Law
740 15th St. NW 9th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20005-1022
http://www.abanet.org/child
Revised December 2000

another good sight I found is
http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/prevention/prevention_2873.html

Its a lot to go over, and I really should have been doing this years ago. but I didnt have any real indication that she was up to anything. Then again, from past experience I didnt know she was setting up for a divorce either. She is very skilled in concealing the truth, thats for sure.  Im just gullible too.

Offline sue

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 09:43:34 PM »
She can not take your children out of the state without your permission.  If she says too bad, I'm going anyway, call the police.  They most certainly will go over to her place and talk to her and tell her she can not leave without your permission.  I believe she could lose custody over something like this.  If she won't let the children come over for their visitaion (and your rights as a father) call the police.  It's time to start fighting back and not take this crap from her.  It sounds like she is a bully.  I don't get it.  And the next time you get a threat from her that she's leaving, call the police.  They'll have a nice chat with her :)  It will piss her off, but too bad.  She needs to know that you are not going to take this anymore.  Stand up for your rights as a father.  And just because you make less money doesn't make you any less of a father to your girls.

Offline sue

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 09:44:51 PM »
These women make me so angry.  I had the worst ex, but I never took my daughter from him.  This makes me sick.

Offline Bree

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 10:56:04 PM »
Quote from: gail;20254
She can not take your children out of the state without your permission. If she says too bad, I'm going anyway, call the police. They most certainly will go over to her place and talk to her and tell her she can not leave without your permission. I believe she could lose custody over something like this. If she won't let the children come over for their visitaion (and your rights as a father) call the police. It's time to start fighting back and not take this crap from her. It sounds like she is a bully. I don't get it. And the next time you get a threat from her that she's leaving, call the police. They'll have a nice chat with her :) It will piss her off, but too bad. She needs to know that you are not going to take this anymore. Stand up for your rights as a father. And just because you make less money doesn't make you any less of a father to your girls.

:yeahthat: Well said, Gail!  Additionally, if she does try to take your children outside the US, by contacting the police you will have some type of legal documentation (police reports - demand them since they are not always written) to support the fact that she had been threatening this.
"Every parent who has a child and they tuck him in at night, or her in at night, and they wish the best and only the best and they will always protect the child and do whatever they can, but most of the time they don't have to prove it. I'm in the proving grounds, to myself and to my child.  I have to get him home and I will do whatever I have to. I'll never stop to save him."  --David Goldman

dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2009, 12:58:51 AM »
She actually told me she talked to her attorney and he told her she doesnt need my permission to take them anywhere, just has to give me contact details and go.   I told her to just try it, and she will be the new face of the a nationwide Amber alert.    Then she said that she is going to Florida ,and I cant stop her from going there.  I said I am filing for an emergency hearing ( thanks to the advice from this website ,,, but I didnt tell her that)   That is when she started to use the girls. She ask me if I want to be the reason that our daughters wont be going to Disney World ?  
I said you never said Disney world until just now, and I doubt thats what your plans are anyway as youve indicated different earlier.   But I know that she is going to try to use our daughters to get to me by using a Disney story.    But my daughters are smart, and if I have to, I will let them read the emails so they know whats going on. Id rather not. Id rather they never had to hear anything about this, but I dont want them thinking Im keeping them from Disney World.  

Quote from: Bree;20263
:yeahthat: Well said, Gail!  Additionally, if she does try to take your children outside the US, by contacting the police you will have some type of legal documentation (police reports - demand them since they are not always written) to support the fact that she had been threatening this.

Offline Teena

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2009, 09:17:22 AM »
Quote from: dan1dad;20270
She actually told me she talked to her attorney and he told her she doesnt need my permission to take them anywhere, just has to give me contact details and go. I told her to just try it, and she will be the new face of the a nationwide Amber alert. Then she said that she is going to Florida ,and I cant stop her from going there. I said I am filing for an emergency hearing ( thanks to the advice from this website ,,, but I didnt tell her that) That is when she started to use the girls. She ask me if I want to be the reason that our daughters wont be going to Disney World ?
I said you never said Disney world until just now, and I doubt thats what your plans are anyway as youve indicated different earlier. But I know that she is going to try to use our daughters to get to me by using a Disney story. But my daughters are smart, and if I have to, I will let them read the emails so they know whats going on. Id rather not. Id rather they never had to hear anything about this, but I dont want them thinking Im keeping them from Disney World.
Good luck dan1dad. Don't let her fool you. And it is always better safe than sorry especially with all the threats she has given you.
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Offline sue

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2009, 09:38:01 AM »
Quote from: dan1dad;20270
She actually told me she talked to her attorney and he told her she doesnt need my permission to take them anywhere, just has to give me contact details and go. I told her to just try it, and she will be the new face of the a nationwide Amber alert. Then she said that she is going to Florida ,and I cant stop her from going there. I said I am filing for an emergency hearing ( thanks to the advice from this website ,,, but I didnt tell her that) That is when she started to use the girls. She ask me if I want to be the reason that our daughters wont be going to Disney World ?
I said you never said Disney world until just now, and I doubt thats what your plans are anyway as youve indicated different earlier. But I know that she is going to try to use our daughters to get to me by using a Disney story. But my daughters are smart, and if I have to, I will let them read the emails so they know whats going on. Id rather not. Id rather they never had to hear anything about this, but I dont want them thinking Im keeping them from Disney World.
Who was your initial lawyer?  You can call him/her and just ask a few simple questions regarding her taking the kids out of state without your permission and he will tell you what to do.  This should be a free call.  You need to keep all this documented and if she does go you need to call the police and make them come out and file a report.  What kind of custody do you have of the children?  Call your attorney, I used to do it and was never charged for a phone call.  What did she tell you her reason was to go to Florida in the first place?

dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2009, 05:02:37 PM »
Just out of curiosity , how long does it take before you get an emergency hearing?  And what all can be brought up at that hearing? Is it restricted to only what the hearing is about? Or can other issues be put on the record at that time.   Im really in no position to hire an attorney, and I still havent found out if there is anyone in my area that will help me out with this.


Oh, and sorry I forgot to answer this earlier but my X first ask if I would be ok with her keeping the girls a couple days longer than usual.  Only after trying to find out why , she said that she was taking them on a trip.  It took some more prying and she said she was taking them to Florida. My daughters told me their Nana was coming along to make sure they get there ok.  Nana is a big proponant of getting her daughter and granddaughters to Australia, and was coming to take them all back when I first was told that about the divorce.  With the cloak of secrecy about a trip, and having to force info out of my X, I am very worried.  Then My X  can do whatever she wants because her attorney told her so , and she doesnt have to ask me anyway.    I reminded her we have joint legal and I am still the father. I have a right to know where they are going, and when, and I have the right say no.  It was only only I told her I would stop her legally if I had to . That is when she started to bring the girls into it and how I would be the reason they could not go to Disney world and so on.

Now just the yesterday she attempted to lure me in by saying she would negotiate a way for me to be ok with her taking them on a trip ( no mention of disneyworld this time) and ask what she could offer to not have me go to the courts with this.   I knew she was trying to pull something, at least I feel she was.  Someone else suggested that if I try to negotiate , she could do a couple things.  If it gets to hearing she could claim I was not really worried of flight from country if ried to negotiate terms, and that whats to say she wouldnt just get me to agree to something, and leave anyway.   She knows she needs a couple days that the girls should be with me to make the trip, and she knows that I will call her in as kidnapping if our daughters dont make their visist without a good reason.  She just cant leave the area and not think I would let it slide 2 or 3 days before calling the authorities, and by then she would be long gone.

She consideres her self to be very sly, always has . And when I thought she loved me and I thought I loved her, she could get away with it. Even when I knew I still forced my self to overlook it. That was my dumb mistake. Nice guys always get screwed. And I do mean always.   So Im tired of being the nice guy when it comes to her using my daughters, and trying to take them away from me.

dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2009, 03:16:18 PM »
Well I found out today that I need to call the Eastern Missouri legal services at 314 534 4200.  I also found out after calling them, they do not handle cases that involve possible child kidnapping with custody cases.    She gave me the number to a lawyer referral line, and that is just for high paid attorneys.  which I can not afford.  
I called DFS courts in St. Louis City to see how to file an emergency case myself, except they dont give any information out like that.  They said I need to contact an attorney.    I guess they consider this a big money case and its mandatory that attorneys get a lot of money for it as its a highly emotional problem.   So what do I do now?  Just wait to see if she takes them out of the country and they hope that someone will try to help then?   This is ridiculous.

Offline sue

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2009, 04:19:10 PM »
I would call an attorney and ask their advice.  They might know of an attorney that will do this for you or give you other advice.  I had to put mine on a credit card.  If you have joint legal custody she cannot take those children out of state without your permission and if she gets that she has to give you phone numbers of hotels or wherever they are staying.  You might want to remind her that she can't kidnap your children and that you will take her to court.  If she really wanted to go on vacation she should tell you where and when and not lie.  Maybe you should remind her that Australia is a signatory of the Hague and they will send the children right back and she will lose all custody.  It's terrible to have to argue, it's best to have an attorney.

dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2009, 04:26:23 PM »
I called the family courts back a couple times and this time I used the rotary phone option and waited for an operator and not just transferred to someone in a certain department that cant think beyond their immediate duties.   This woman was nice enough to transfer me to legal assistance where I actually talked to an attorney there.
I told him what I was told earlier about not having any assistance, and he just said "that figures"   He then told me I needed to get all my past papers together, and contact the clerk that handled the case for the judge that finalized the custody agreement.   He said having limited funds I might be able to do it on my own, and the clerk might be able to walk me through the filing process too.  Also, being as there was the papers were filed in the original divorce to prevent her from flight with the children,  there is a past history of it and my chances might be better because of this and the original judge will probably notice that too.  I hope this is right.  
Now I just have to get all this done and in the works this week.  Now Im worried that since she knows I know, she might push up her plans.   Id rather deal with this hear, because once its out of the country, Im just out of luck not having a lot of money.  That is the main motivator for  the justice system to work, and we all know its not equal for all.  at least not in the USA,  I can only imagine what its like outside the USA.  Anyway, I hope I can get it all arranged this week, and I hope that doing so will prevent her from running off.  But I also worry it might just make her act now and not wait.  Its a hard decission. Either way, its very apparent that the legal system in the US is not really interested in child kidnapping cases until after the facts.
We need to get the laws changed to help everyone in the USA from having to deal with this, and we need to do it now.

dan1dad

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2009, 04:33:08 PM »
She says her attorney told her she can take them. I dont have an attorney nor can I afford on at this time.   Id rather not stoop to the police, but if I have to I will.  I fear they will bring in DFS, and that if things get to deep, they might take the girls away.   I dont know why they would, but I know of plenty of nightmare stories about Missouri DFS.  I have an aquantiance that use to be an attorney for them until around 5 years ago.  She now lives elsewhere and gave up being an attoney.  Havent seen her for 5 years now, but she use to tell stories that just disgusted her of the things DFS social workers would do, or not do, in many cases.  One I recall is there was a family that was very poor and couldnt afford diapers for the baby.  The social worker took the baby away saying it was abuse because on the day she was there, the baby had a wal-mart plastic shopping bag on her for a diaper. The family was out of diapers and out of money.  My friend said she talked the judge into giving the baby back to the family, and my friend went out and bought the family a month supply of diapers, something that DFS should have done to begin with.  They have very uncaring and untrained people working with the Missouri DFS from what I have heard, and I do not want to take that chance if I dont have to.  


Quote from: gail;20254
She can not take your children out of the state without your permission.  If she says too bad, I'm going anyway, call the police.  They most certainly will go over to her place and talk to her and tell her she can not leave without your permission.  I believe she could lose custody over something like this.  If she won't let the children come over for their visitaion (and your rights as a father) call the police.  It's time to start fighting back and not take this crap from her.  It sounds like she is a bully.  I don't get it.  And the next time you get a threat from her that she's leaving, call the police.  They'll have a nice chat with her :)  It will piss her off, but too bad.  She needs to know that you are not going to take this anymore.  Stand up for your rights as a father.  And just because you make less money doesn't make you any less of a father to your girls.

Offline sue

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Re: need some quick, valid advice on possible abduction
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2009, 04:41:23 PM »
Just do what the attorney at the court told you to do.  They will walk you through it, they helped me as well.  And don't make yourself sick with worry :)