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Author Topic: STF Minister says STF is in trouble  (Read 14140 times)

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Offline Lexi

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2009, 10:28:38 PM »
Quote from: roger;28159
Don't know. But I don't think it is going to be final whichever way it goes, because the Justices will be reviewing the merits of the stay issued by Justice Marco Aurelio, not the merits of Judge Pereira Pinto's decision.
 
The actual appeal on the merits of Judge Pereira Pinto's decision must be heard first at the federal appellate court in Rio. And this federal appellate court can issue another stay of execution, even if the Justices at the Supreme Court next week (or whenever) overrule Justice Marco Aurelio's stay.
 
The LeS just did not want to take the chance at the federal appellate court and hit the emergency button at the Supreme Court.

Given how bulletproof Justice Pinto's opinion seems, I'd be interested in knowing on what basis that stay would be issued. I'm not saying it wont or can't be, I just didn't get the impression he left them much if any room to maneuver. Hence the hail mary pass on Tuesday...

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2009, 10:35:09 PM »
Quote from: noah3698;28163
Roger, I am a little confused here.  I remember the other night you got pretty upset over some people disrespecting the STF Justices by saying they are being paid off by the Lin E Silva family.  The way I look at it being paid in exchange for special treatment is no different than recieving it  because you are in the same "good ol' boys club".  They are both unethical and in no way deserving of any respect from us.

I also think it is unethical in democratic countries, but I'm in the minority in Brazil. Go ask most Brazilians if they think this is unethical and you'll hear a big no.

The definition of corruption in this country involves paying people with actual money. If you ask or return favors or just work your connections, this is not even remotely considered as corruption by the vast majority of Brazilians. Influence peddling happens day in and day out, but that's just the way it is. You have to be caught paying people with actual money to (maybe) get in trouble with the law.

I don't want to sound too dramatic, but working your connections is standard operating procedure throughout Brazilian society, in all walks of life, professions, and social stratus.

Life in this country is not democratic: whoever say it is is just naive or lying in self-interest. Either you have connections or you are likely to end up nowhere.

Having said that, I don't think STF Justices receive money and I don't think they are even offered money. But I do think their friends have a better chance of being heard. And I also this is also valid for all other higher courts in the country made up of political appointees.

It is not a surprise that the most comprehensive, sound, and fair ruling in this case came from a federal lower-court judge. Usually these guys are young (in their 20's or 30's) and have the independence and freshness that their older peers have already lost.

SAGS

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2009, 10:35:57 PM »
Quote from: LukieD;28135
Exactly right. They had a strategy and they knew they only needed to pick off one judge sympathetic to their cause to succeed in getting a stay order. I'm sure they had Marco Aurelio de Mello sized up well in advance. This was their ace in the hole strategy if they didn't like their chances with the Federal judge of second instance who would be reviewing any appeal to Judge Pinto's ruling. Maybe the clock was ticking and they didn't like their chances so they went back and played the constitutional card. It's nice to have the connections to enable a political party to file a petition on your behalf, isn't it? I wonder how many Brazilians could succeed in pulling that off. I bet not many.
 
And I don't presume to know about any contact between these families and Marco Aurelio ahead of time, or how well the Minister knows Tostes or these families, but it sure does make you wonder...

Yeah, the stay order was probably already waiting before the Monday ruling.

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2009, 10:37:41 PM »
Quote from: Lexi;28181
Given how bulletproof Justice Pinto's opinion seems, I'd be interested in knowing on what basis that stay would be issued. I'm not saying it wont or can't be, I just didn't get the impression he left them much if any room to maneuver. Hence the hail mary pass on Tuesday...

Judge Pinto's decision cleary shows that he went out of his way and tried very, very hard not to leave any room to maneuver, and hence the hail marry pass on Tuesday. But we never know.

SAGS

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2009, 10:40:22 PM »
Quote from: whartn;28164
Where is Lula in this equation?:conf:

What do you mean?

Offline Jaboo

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2009, 10:40:34 PM »
What i am interested in , is if next week the court decides Dornelles petition is invalid.  Therefore the existing order becomes effective.  However since the mandate requiring sean to be brought to the consulate has passed, how and when will sean be required to be turned over.

SAGS

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2009, 10:41:25 PM »
Quote from: Lexi;28181
Given how bulletproof Justice Pinto's opinion seems, I'd be interested in knowing on what basis that stay would be issued. I'm not saying it wont or can't be, I just didn't get the impression he left them much if any room to maneuver. Hence the hail mary pass on Tuesday...

 
Doesn't matter how bulletproof a ruling or opinion is in Brazil, corruption and criminal activity in the courts wins every time.

Offline Lexi

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2009, 10:42:43 PM »
Quote from: roger;28191
Judge Pinto's decision cleary shows that he went out of his way and tried very, very hard not to leave any room to maneuver, and hence the hail marry pass on Tuesday. But we never know.

Yes, guess they drove that point home this week. It's a good thing that David has been blessed with uncommon serenity even though this would test Mother Theresa.

SAGS

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2009, 10:44:15 PM »
Quote from: Jaboo;28196
What i am interested in , is if next week the court decides Dornelles petition is invalid. Therefore the existing order becomes effective. However since the mandate requiring sean to be brought to the consulate has passed, how and when will sean be required to be turned over.

They'll appeal it again.

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2009, 10:44:37 PM »
Quote from: Jaboo;28196
What i am interested in , is if next week the court decides Dornelles petition is invalid.  Therefore the existing order becomes effective.  However since the mandate requiring sean to be brought to the consulate has passed, how and when will sean be required to be turned over.

If the court decides to overrule Justice Marco Aurelio's "emergency seat" decision, the preexisting order becomes effective, including the order to the Consulate, Interpol, Federal Police etc.

Unless the federal appellate court in Rio which will eventually review the merits of Judge Pinto's lower-court decision issue itself a stay.

The Supreme Court is not reviewing the merits of Judge Pinto's decision. It will be reviewing only the merits of Justice Marco Aurelio "emergency seat" stay of execution.

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2009, 10:46:08 PM »
Quote from: SAGS;28197
Doesn't matter how bulletproof a ruling or opinion is in Brazil, corruption and criminal activity in the courts wins every time.

I'm sorry, but Judge Pereira Pinto's ruling proves otherwise.

Sorry to say it, but your post is neither true nor helpful.

Offline Jaboo

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2009, 10:46:28 PM »
i know roger but in that order he is ordered to be delivered at 2 pm on the 3rd.
that time is no longer relevant, so when would sean be delivered?

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2009, 10:47:50 PM »
Quote from: Jaboo;28205
i know roger but in that order he is ordered to be delivered at 2 pm on the 3rd.
that time is no longer relevant, so when would sean be delivered?

Within 48 hours counted as of the date the order is reinstated, if reinstated.

Offline noah3698

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2009, 10:48:15 PM »
Quote from: roger;28188
I also think it is unethical in democratic countries, but I'm in the minority in Brazil. Go ask most Brazilians if they think this is unethical and you'll hear a big no.
 
The definition of corruption in this country involves paying people with actual money. If you ask or return favors or just work your connections, this is not even remotely considered as corruption by the vast majority of Brazilians. Influence peddling happens day in and day out, but that's just the way it is. You have to be caught paying people with actual money to (maybe) get in trouble with the law.
 
I don't want to sound too dramatic, but working your connections is standard operating procedure throughout Brazilian society, in all walks of life, professions, and social stratus.
 
Life in this country is not democratic: whoever say it is is just naive or lying in self-interest. Either you have connections or you are likely to end up nowhere.
 
Having said that, I don't think STF Justices receive money and I don't think they are even offered money. But I do think their friends have a better chance of being heard. And I also this is also valid for all other higher courts in the country made up of political appointees.
 
It is not a surprise that the most comprehensive, sound, and fair ruling in this case came from a federal lower-court judge. Usually these guys are young (in their 20's or 30's) and have the independence and freshness that their older peers have already lost.

Thanks for explaining that to me Roger. I guess that is why I was confused because in the US using your connections to influence a judge or offering favors in return for special treatment within the legal system is considered very unethical (not that it doesn't happen because of course it does).  
 
No wonder this has been such an uphill battle for David all these years.  I bet if this had been any other family David was fighting Sean would have been home a long time ago.

Offline Jaboo

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2009, 10:49:03 PM »
Perfect then there is a good chance sean could be on a plane next friday