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Author Topic: STF Minister says STF is in trouble  (Read 14144 times)

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SAGS

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2009, 10:50:17 PM »
Quote from: roger;28204
I'm sorry, but Judge Pereira Pinto's ruling proves otherwise.
 
Sorry to say it, but your post is neither true nor helpful.

My post simply means that the Brazilian courts are not following law up to this point, especially with the HC.  You don't see that corruption is whats steering this case?

Offline noah3698

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2009, 10:51:56 PM »
Quote from: roger;28201
If the court decides to overrule Justice Marco Aurelio's "emergency seat" decision, the preexisting order becomes effective, including the order to the Consulate, Interpol, Federal Police etc.
 
Unless the federal appellate court in Rio which will eventually review the merits of Judge Pinto's lower-court decision issue itself a stay.
 
The Supreme Court is not reviewing the merits of Judge Pinto's decision. It will be reviewing only the merits of Justice Marco Aurelio "emergency seat" stay of execution.

Roger, has the Lins E Silva family submitting an appeal to the federal appelate court yet?

Offline Lexi

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2009, 10:53:37 PM »
Quote from: SAGS;28197
Doesn't matter how bulletproof a ruling or opinion is in Brazil, corruption and criminal activity in the courts wins every time.

I fear you may be right. When I first joined this campaign I recall coming across an article by a Brazilian law professor - I think he was on sabbatical in the US at the time. Anyway, he said rich Brazilians don't obey the law because they think it is beneath them. To do that would imply that they don't have any connections, status, or influence. Basically the laws are for the little people. We've seen that come to pass this week.
 
I had wanted to post the link here but his articles are very critical of some aspects of Brazilian society, especially the legal system, and I decided they may be too inflammatory.

Offline noah3698

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2009, 10:54:22 PM »
Quote from: Jaboo;28212
Perfect then there is a good chance sean could be on a plane next friday

Unfortunately not, because the Lins E Silva family are surely getting ready to appeal at the second level court if they have not already.  It is like a merry-go-round that never stops.

Offline chopchop

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2009, 10:55:48 PM »
Quote from: roger;28201
Unless the federal appellate court in Rio which will eventually review the merits of Judge Pinto's lower-court decision issue itself a stay.
You can go to the bank on this happening.  The only way for the appellate court to even entertain a review would be to grant a stay of the lower court order.  LES is not going to let that detail slip by thats why they went to Justice Marco Aurelio for the stay.  They knew in advance that he would do what they wanted and issue a stay against the federal court orders.  I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Sean will be coming home right away.

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2009, 10:57:10 PM »
Quote from: SAGS;28213
My post simply means that the Brazilian courts are not following law up to this point, especially with the HC.  You don't see that corruption is whats steering this case?

I beg to differ: some Brazilians courts are not following law up to this point, especially with the HC, because they have no legal background to apply HC.

And I truly believe that corruption (paying people with actual money) is not playing any role in this case. I think what is steering this case is that David is unfortunately fighting against the elite of the elite of the legal profession in this country.

And guys in the elite of the elite of anything usually play in a system of giving/returning favors and other stuff that goes on in the posh cocktail party circuit, and this entitles them to get away with stuff, in Brazil and in almost all countries throughout the world. Not that this is right or that we all should sit and applaud or envy them.

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2009, 11:01:42 PM »
Quote from: chopchop;28226
You can go to the bank on this happening.  The only way for the appellate court to even entertain a review would be to grant a stay of the lower court order.  LES is not going to let that detail slip by thats why they went to Justice Marco Aurelio for the stay.  They knew in advance that he would do what they wanted and issue a stay against the federal court orders.  I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Sean will be coming home right away.

Well, you said it: the only way for the appellate court to even entertain a review would be to grant a stay of the lower court order. This stay would be the first step in entertaining a review, and one that is possible. Just possible, I say, since I can't guess the probabilities.

Of course they thought it would be easier to go to Justice Marco Aurelio, but if the STF Justices overrule Marco Aurelio's stay, they will sure try to repeat the stunt at the federal appellate court. They would have no other way to go.

Offline Miltonxf2

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2009, 11:02:25 PM »
Quote from: Wendy;28138
Hey! They wrote you back?! How come they didn't write me back?! Stupid gmail e-mail prolly put me in their trashbin!  Off to send another e-mail!

O gabinete do Sen Eduardo Suplicy deu resposta. Também pediram vários dados como CPF, endereço e telefone, e disseram que iriam encaminhar um retorno.
_____________

The office of Sen. Eduardo Suplicy replied. Also requested more data such as CPF, address and phone, and said they would send an answer.

Offline noah3698

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2009, 11:04:18 PM »
Quote from: roger;28228
I beg to differ: some Brazilians courts are not following law up to this point, especially with the HC, because they have no legal background to apply HC.
 
And I truly believe that corruption (paying people with actual money) is not playing any role in this case. I think what is steering this case is that David is unfortunately fighting against the elite of the elite of the legal profession in this country.
 
And guys in the elite of the elite of anything usually play in a system of giving/returning favors and other stuff that goes on in the posh cocktail party circuit, and this entitles them to get away with stuff, in Brazil and in almost all countries throughout the world. Not that this is right or that we all should sit and applaud or envy them.

Roger what you are saying is considered "corruption" in the US.....
Definition of Political corruption: the dysfunction of a political system or institution in which government officials, political officials or employees seek illegitimate personal gain through actions such as bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, patronage, graft, and embezzlement

Offline Lexi

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2009, 11:05:04 PM »
Further to Roger's point about the judges in the lower Federal court usually being younger, I believe Judge Pinto is 46. Seems like that's old enough to be wise but perhaps not so old as to be too traditional or regressive in his mindset. He's a gift.

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2009, 11:09:14 PM »
Quote from: noah3698;28235
Roger what you are saying is considered "corruption" in the US.....
Definition of Political corruption: the dysfunction of a political system or institution in which government officials, political officials or employees seek illegitimate personal gain through actions such as bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, patronage, graft, and embezzlement

I know that. Different standards, unfortunately.

It is interesting that, if you check the cold letter of Brazilian legislation, the definition is pretty similar to the one you quoted. But because it doesn't echo society's feelings, it is not applied in the real world as it should. But legal practictioners know that law lags if it is contrary to society's deep values. It is just ignored when it doesn't reflect society's values, jump ahead of them, or try to change them by force.

We Brazilians tolerate cornyism and patronage way much more than our laws actually call for, because law itself doesn't have the power to change collective deep-rooted feelings.

It is a sad state of affairs, but very true nonetheless.

Offline noah3698

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2009, 11:16:43 PM »
Quote from: roger;28239
I know that. Different standards, unfortunately.
 
It is interesting that, if you check the cold letter of Brazilian legislation, the definition is pretty similar to the one you quoted. But because it doesn't echo society's feelings, it is not applied in the real world as it should.
 
We Brazilians tolerate cornyism and patronage way much more than our laws actually call for.
 
It is a sad state of affairs, but very true nonetheless.

 
I am just glad the Judge Pinto doesn't mingle at the same posh cocktail parties as the Lins E Silva group.  Let's hope the majority of the STF does not either....

Offline roger

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2009, 11:19:12 PM »
Quote from: noah3698;28246
I am just glad the Judge Pinto doesn't mingle at the same posh cocktail parties as the Lins E Silva group.  Let's hope the majority of the STF does not either....

I'm also glad about Judge Pinto. I'm just not too hopeful about the majority of the STF. We never know, though.

SAGS

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2009, 11:21:15 PM »
Quote from: roger;28228
I beg to differ: some Brazilians courts are not following law up to this point, especially with the HC, because they have no legal background to apply HC.
 
And I truly believe that corruption (paying people with actual money) is not playing any role in this case. I think what is steering this case is that David is unfortunately fighting against the elite of the elite of the legal profession in this country.
 
And guys in the elite of the elite of anything usually play in a system of giving/returning favors and other stuff that goes on in the posh cocktail party circuit, and this entitles them to get away with stuff, in Brazil and in almost all countries throughout the world. Not that this is right or that we all should sit and applaud or envy them.

You're proving my point.  These special favors are ILLEGAL and have no place when it comes to interpreting the law as its written.  Friends, family and special buddys in the courts are no reason to give "special favors".  That is defined as "corruption."
 
If I mug a judge and the police illegally searched my car to catch me with the evidence, that judges friends at my hearing MUST let me go free.  If they don't because they are FRIENDS with the other judge, they just broke the law.
 
Thats what going on here.  Corruption at its best, and its not even being hidden. Its in plain site.  As far as money changing hands, thats just speculation, but I'd bet my hat on it.

Offline TomD

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Re: STF Minister says STF is in trouble
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2009, 11:29:36 PM »
Quote from: roger;28201
If the court decides to overrule Justice Marco Aurelio's "emergency seat" decision, the preexisting order becomes effective, including the order to the Consulate, Interpol, Federal Police etc.

Unless the federal appellate court in Rio which will eventually review the merits of Judge Pinto's lower-court decision issue itself a stay.

The Supreme Court is not reviewing the merits of Judge Pinto's decision. It will be reviewing only the merits of Justice Marco Aurelio "emergency seat" stay of execution.
Roger, with such a limited scope of the law to decide, why should it take these 11 justices a week to decide?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke