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Author Topic: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case  (Read 3712 times)

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Offline genegirl99

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 04:34:18 PM »
Virginia has said Vermont has jurisdicition.

That is true, although it seems like they're still fighting the jurisdiction issue since 2009 before Miller went on the lam and the US Supreme Court had not stepped in.

The Vermont Court said that although Jenkins never adopted Isabella she still had a right to see her.  Custody wasn't even brought up.

I was just laying everything out that I figured out and I probably wasn't clear with my meaning.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 05:23:28 PM by genegirl99 »

Offline genegirl99

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2011, 05:10:06 PM »
Lisa's facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=331151156690 

Only 119 people are in it.  Membership is closed.  It's run by a woman called Linda.

Offline SageDad

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 04:57:23 PM »
I've seen some of the same idiots say about this case "Janet Jenkins isn't a mother, since she didn't adopt Isabella, and so only her 'real' biological mother should have any say in what happens to her." Even though they were married at the time and any children born to one of them should be both of theirs.

Then again, some of those people also seem to believe it's the biological act of giving birth that makes women into deities.

Good points.  Have to be careful when poking sacred cows, but there's been a lot of feminist efforts to uphold the rights of lesbian partners so I think you are still mostly politically correct.  Libraries could be filled with "Women's Studies" books written about the importance of the bond between child and the lesbian partner/mother.  Not much good will towards fathers from that crowd though.  I believe the phrase they use is "all men are rapists." 

Situations like this do create a bit of a conundrum for the Domestic Violence Industry though.  If we should always let mothers abduct kids what about when they are both mothers?  A little bit like the inconvenient fact that domestic violence rates are higher amongst lesbian couples than straight ones.

Facebook page of the abductor is classic child abductor histrionics:

Quote from: Abductor

What's a Mom to do?

Lisa carried Isabella in her womb for nine months.At seven months Lisa began premature labor and doctors put her on bedrest and medication to prevent early delivery. Isabella did arrive four weeks early but was perfect in every way.

...

What's a Mom to do?

Lisa and Isabella have gone to the underground. A Biblical comparison is when Moses mother in order to save baby Moses, she hid him in a basket in the brush in the Nile River.

“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline forthelost

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 05:46:05 PM »
With a good dose of the "giving birth makes you a deity and thus the only person who should have any control over their child, ever" mentality I mentioned before.

Oh, and that quote is spurious, although if you read the writing of any of them it's not that far removed from it.

Offline SageDad

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 02:46:24 PM »
Been a lot of news stories about this case.  Here's an article from today (though there have been dozens over the past few months)

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20120104/NEWS01/201040331/Draft-man-charged-lesbian-custody-fight

FBI has been especially active with this case like nothing I've ever seen before.  They've even arrested accomplices that are church pastors.  They normally won't even file charges against the abductors, much less the people who help them.

If only the media and the FBI cared about children like my son as much as they care about the non-biological children of divorced lesbians.  With all this "male privilege" I get to enjoy I think I wouldn't mind "suffering" a bit of the "patriarchal oppression" that pervades our society.
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Offline Diane

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 10:52:52 AM »
Fair to say the inequality and sporadic use of aid in the recovery of children overall, is grossly unfair and not dealt with nor explained by any of the agencies or political entities mandated to provide aid.   The most spurious case being that of Congressman Miller of Ca.   When all the powers that be,  came together to affect a three day return from Mexico, plus, the arrest, and return to the U.S of the abductor.

Offline SageDad

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2012, 07:49:00 PM »
Even the NY Times has weighed in on this story (and they very rarely cover international child abduction cases):


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/a-civil-union-ends-in-an-abduction-and-questions.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
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Offline Diane

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 08:25:59 AM »
I also read the article yesterday in the NYTs.   I wondered about their rare focus on child abduction and the interest in this particular case.   You could say the FBI stepped in due to the issue of che childs safety being in jepordy.  That dosen't quite work either as the same could be said of about 90% of the cases we read about here.








Offline SageDad

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2012, 02:50:55 PM »
I also read the article yesterday in the NYTs.   I wondered about their rare focus on child abduction and the interest in this particular case.   You could say the FBI stepped in due to the issue of che childs safety being in jepordy.  That dosen't quite work either as the same could be said of about 90% of the cases we read about here.

It's about the relative importance of victims.  Some victims are more important than others.  Some victims are more sympathetic, and more politically correct than others. 

Accordingly, some forms of violence and injustice are more acceptable than others.

Consider the following scenarios:

1.) Stealing candy from a baby.
2.) Stealing candy from a child.
3.) Stealing candy from a woman.
4.) Stealing candy from a man.

The more helpless we view the victim the more sympathy we give them.  Baby's are helpless and innocent.  They are the most sympathetic of victims.  We have great sympathy for the baby, but very little for the man, who is probably not so innocent and should just himself "be a man," and deal with his own problems.  If we start adding "privileges" like "rich," "white" and "heterosexual" we can decrease his relative importance even further. 

In this case we have qualifiers like lesbian, female and mother which add both sympathy, and by extension, public interest, to the story.

Men are, by definition, guilty until proven innocent if they are in a dispute with a woman.  As such, they are also, by definition, not the victim, but the perpetrator.  Even after we have shown that an individual man actually is the victim, he is not a sympathetic victim.  It's a "man's world" after all and men have all the power.  Men are, by definition, never helpless.  Besides, things that happen every day are not news.  There's never been a news story reporting on the rising of the sun, and father's losing their children has become our daily bread.  Saying that a fit father has lost all access to his children is like saying good morning.
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline Diane

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 09:45:36 PM »
Not always the case obviously.  David Goldman,  Congressman Miller's son.  Gee,  that's all I can think of.   On the other hand,  I can't think of that many women getting their children back either.   Has a study been done on the percentage of abductors who are women or men and also on the gender of those obtaining recovery.  That might be a revealing statistic and lend credence to your argument of sexual bias.

Offline lovellboys

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2012, 09:21:50 AM »
Not always the case obviously.  David Goldman,  Congressman Miller's son.  Gee,  that's all I can think of.   On the other hand,  I can't think of that many women getting their children back either.   Has a study been done on the percentage of abductors who are women or men and also on the gender of those obtaining recovery.  That might be a revealing statistic and lend credence to your argument of sexual bias.

It also depends on the country the child was abducted to and how that country perceives women.   
 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bringing-Eli-Home/107675875938913

Offline SageDad

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2012, 04:42:48 PM »
Not always the case obviously.  David Goldman,  Congressman Miller's son.  Gee,  that's all I can think of.   On the other hand,  I can't think of that many women getting their children back either.   Has a study been done on the percentage of abductors who are women or men and also on the gender of those obtaining recovery.  That might be a revealing statistic and lend credence to your argument of sexual bias.

Your counter-examples only reinforce my statement.  Are you really implying that the case for Congressman Miller's grandson was normal in any way, shape or form?  Or the Goldman case for that matter?  They are extremely exceptional cases with massively mitigating factors... like having the mother die and having a massive grass roots campaign and associated media involvement for Goldman and, and having a grandfather that's a US Congressman for Miller.


Generalizing from exceptions is a very well known logical fallacy.  It's kind of like noticing that one man is a rapist and then saying something like "all men are rapists."  If you're going to make a generalization you need to have a representative sample.  David Goldman is an exceptional human being but still only succeeded through a series of very exceptional circumstances.  And Miller is a US Congressman.

Quote
It also depends on the country the child was abducted to and how that country perceives women.  http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bringing-Eli-Home/107675875938913


Very true.  The middle-east is a huge, and very notable, exception where being male, and being Muslim, confer huge legal advantages, but it's also the exception that demonstrates the rule.  Legal advantages are not necessarily the same as sympathy though.  Sharia law does not directly tie child custody to a nebulously defined concept of the child's "best interests" -- which invites the judge to make decisions based on personal biases. 
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline SageDad

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2012, 10:20:24 AM »
Trial Due for Pastor in Dispute on Custody
By ERIK ECKHOLM
Published: August 6, 2012


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us/trial-for-kenneth-miller-accused-of-aiding-in-a-kidnapping.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share

The curious involvement of an Amish-Mennonite sect in a high-profile case of international parental kidnapping will be on display — and perhaps become clearer — in a courtroom in Burlington, Vt., this week.

Jury selection is to begin Tuesday in the criminal trial of a pastor charged with helping Lisa A. Miller flee the country with her young daughter to prevent the girl from staying with Ms. Miller’s former partner in a civil union.

Kenneth L. Miller, 46, the leader of a Beachy Amish Mennonite church in Stuarts Draft, Va., is accused of helping Ms. Miller, who is no relation, violate custody orders, aiding her in her flight with her daughter, Isabella, to Nicaragua, where they were sheltered by missionaries of the sect. The pair have been missing since September 2009 and are believed to be in Central America.

The bitter and widely publicized custody battle that preceded Ms. Miller’s flight pitted conservative Christians using the slogan “Protect Isabella” against the courts and supporters of gay rights.

Ms. Miller repeatedly defied orders by a Vermont family court to allow Isabella to visit  Janet Jenkins, Isabella’s other legal parent. The Vermont civil union was officially dissolved in 2004; Ms. Miller, the birth mother, was granted custody, and Ms. Jenkins was awarded visitation rights.

Ms. Miller became a cause célèbre among evangelical opponents of same-sex marriage after she declared her newfound religious objection to homosexuality and spent years in court trying to end Ms. Jenkins’s parental rights. In September 2009, as a frustrated Vermont judge ordered one more visit and threatened to transfer custody of the girl to Ms. Jenkins, Ms. Miller and Isabella, then 7, disappeared from their home in Lynchburg, Va.

Federal agents eventually learned that the pair had flown to Nicaragua, where they were sheltered by missionaries of the Beachy Amish Mennonites, sect members have acknowledged. The group believes that same-sex marriage is a sin.

Mr. Miller contacted a fellow pastor in Nicaragua to ask if he would buy one-way airplane tickets for Ms. Miller and her daughter, meet them at the Managua airport and arrange a place to stay, according to recovered e-mails, telephone records and the deposition of the missionary in Nicaragua.

Ms. Miller and Isabella remain missing, but federal agents believe they remain in hiding somewhere in Nicaragua, possibly with covert help from conservative Christians.

How Kenneth Miller met Lisa Miller and who drove the pair to the Canadian border so they could fly from Toronto remain mysteries.

“We hope the trial will reveal more information about who helped Lisa flee the country and will send a message to those who continue to aid Isabella’s abduction in Nicaragua,” said Sarah Star, Ms. Jenkins’s lawyer in Vermont.

Aiding and abetting of international parental kidnapping — assisting the removal of a child “with intent to obstruct the lawful exercise of parental rights” — carries a prison sentence of up to three years.

Mr. Miller has not disputed the extensive evidence of his role in arranging the flight to Nicaragua, but in preliminary motions, his lawyers have argued that Mr. Miller did not knowingly commit a crime. They note that Ms. Miller was still free to make a flight at the time and that a warrant for her arrest was not issued until months later.

But the Vermont judge had already mandated a visit with Ms. Jenkins for late September 2009 — just after the international flight — and had made his ultimate intention to transfer custody if Ms. Miller continued to defy orders quite clear. From evidence in the indictment, it appears that prosecutors will describe a pattern of deliberate deception on Mr. Miller’s part, suggesting he knew that Ms. Miller was violating the law.

For their flight to Central America, for example, Mr. Miller disguised Ms. Miller and Isabella in the long dresses and head scarves of the Beachy Amish Mennonites, according to his e-mails and statements by missionaries. He told those buying the tickets to make sure the flight did not originate in the United States and he asked that their route not include connections on American soil. Later, he made an e-mail inquiry about the pair’s life in Nicaragua in the Pennsylvania Dutch language, which the F.B.I. translated from recovered e-mails.

The court documents also describe the possible role of Philip Zodhiates, the owner of Response Unlimited, a Christian direct-mail business in Waynesboro, Va., only minutes from Mr. Miller’s church and family landscaping store. On the evening of Sept. 21, 2009, two cellphones registered to Mr. Zodhiates’s company left a moving trail of calls to Mr. Miller, made en route to Buffalo, where Ms. Miller and Isabella were dropped off to go to Canada.

Later, the court documents indicate, Mr. Zodhiates sent care packages to Ms. Miller and Isabella in Nicaragua.

Mr. Zodhiates has not been indicted and declined to comment.

The indictment of Mr. Miller has shaken the Beachy Amish Mennonites in the United States and abroad, a group that tries to live simply and avoid trouble but now finds one pastor on criminal trial and others, in Nicaragua, under surveillance and afraid to visit home.

The sect, one of many offshoots of the Anabaptist tradition, has about 13,000 adult members worldwide, said Cory Anderson, a member and doctoral student in sociology at Ohio State University who keeps a Beachy Amish Mennonite Web site. It broke with the Old Order Amish in 1926 over its decision to use cars and other technology and it is more evangelistic, with missionaries living throughout Central America as well as in Australia, Ireland, Kenya and Eastern Europe.

The sect has no official affiliation with the mainstream Mennonites in the United States, who do not wear distinguishing clothing and are known for their pacifism.

The Beachys’ aid to Ms. Miller and now the trial of a respected pastor have stirred debate within the sect over whether it should be more engaged with society’s culture wars, working to defend traditional marriage and opposing abortion, Mr. Anderson said.

But their historical style is not one of harsh attacks on others, he added.

Beachy leaders have asked members to remember Mr. Miller’s trial in their prayers, Mr. Anderson said, and members hope that Mr. Miller will not go to prison. But the leaders also warned against condemning the judge or those who testify against Mr. Miller. “The outcome is in the hands of God, and we trust that God will make the best of it,” he said.
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline SageDad

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Offline rmakielski

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Re: FBI arrests Tenn. pastor in Vt.-Va. custody case
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2012, 01:28:55 PM »
Must one be Gay to get the FBI to take action. I am sure that every abductor has there their support group aidding and abetting. I know that someone drove my children to the airport. The abductors attorney even provided  critical documents that would allow the children to attend school in the the DR. The FBI knows this but does nothing.
To Gabriel and Isabel: "Whatever you grow up to be, you will always be my children. I will always love you no mater what happens."

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