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Author Topic: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010  (Read 6581 times)

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Offline StrngConviction

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Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« on: May 17, 2011, 08:33:09 PM »
Ireland is a Hague Convention member but Even with an article 15 presented that states my custody and that I was excercising my rights of custody when he was removed , Dylan's habitual resident state being the USA and a MO. judges order for him to be made available to his court due to Dylans wrongful removal,  he has not yet been returned. 
 My solicitor says they are going to use an affidavit of law instead of the article 15 ruling,  can anyone clarify how this is possible? 
 How can a lawyer or solicitor give an affidavit of law if they dont know of the court order demanding his return and custody ?
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Offline SageDad

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 04:06:41 AM »
Ireland is a Hague Convention member but Even with an article 15 presented that states my custody and that I was excercising my rights of custody when he was removed , Dylan's habitual resident state being the USA and a MO. judges order for him to be made available to his court due to Dylans wrongful removal,  he has not yet been returned. 
 My solicitor says they are going to use an affidavit of law instead of the article 15 ruling,  can anyone clarify how this is possible? 
 How can a lawyer or solicitor give an affidavit of law if they dont know of the court order demanding his return and custody ?

Having a ruling that specifically references article 15 of the Abduction Convention is not uncommon but it's not necessary or even probably typical.  The key is really just demonstrating that you had custodial rights and were "actually exercising" them at the time of the illegal abduction or retention (or would have been if not for the same.)  What is required to do so may vary from country to country, and I certainly don't know how Irish law defines "custodial right" and "actually exercised" in this context but, nonetheless, I don't see why he can't use the Article 15 order and whatever "affidavit of law" he is referring to at the same time.  I can only guess that he is trying to avoid the cost/effort of having the order translated to Gaelic (although I've yet to meet an Irishman who doesn't speak English.)  Perhaps he is concerned about having the order "legalized" in Ireland, though it bears mentioning that the Convention explicitly states that no "legalization" of documents is required.

Regardless I would ask your attorney to be very clear on why he wants to exclude your Article 15 order.  I see no reason why he can't submit it into evidence along with his "affidavit."
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline StrngConviction

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 03:35:05 PM »
Ireland is a Hague Convention member but Even with an article 15 presented that states my custody and that I was excercising my rights of custody when he was removed , Dylan's habitual resident state being the USA and a MO. judges order for him to be made available to his court due to Dylans wrongful removal,  he has not yet been returned. 
 My solicitor says they are going to use an affidavit of law instead of the article 15 ruling,  can anyone clarify how this is possible? 
 How can a lawyer or solicitor give an affidavit of law if they dont know of the court order demanding his return and custody ?

Having a ruling that specifically references article 15 of the Abduction Convention is not uncommon but it's not necessary or even probably typical.  The key is really just demonstrating that you had custodial rights and were "actually exercising" them at the time of the illegal abduction or retention (or would have been if not for the same.)  What is required to do so may vary from country to country, and I certainly don't know how Irish law defines "custodial right" and "actually exercised" in this context but, nonetheless, I don't see why he can't use the Article 15 order and whatever "affidavit of law" he is referring to at the same time.  I can only guess that he is trying to avoid the cost/effort of having the order translated to Gaelic (although I've yet to meet an Irishman who doesn't speak English.)  Perhaps he is concerned about having the order "legalized" in Ireland, though it bears mentioning that the Convention explicitly states that no "legalization" of documents is required.

Regardless I would ask your attorney to be very clear on why he wants to exclude your Article 15 order.  I see no reason why he can't submit it into evidence along with his "affidavit."
They said they wouldnt enter it into evidence because it was independantly acquired. It was asked for by their CA . but they refuse to enter it because of she didnt represent herself in the matter.
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Offline SageDad

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 09:14:29 PM »
Ireland is a Hague Convention member but Even with an article 15 presented that states my custody and that I was excercising my rights of custody when he was removed , Dylan's habitual resident state being the USA and a MO. judges order for him to be made available to his court due to Dylans wrongful removal,  he has not yet been returned. 
 My solicitor says they are going to use an affidavit of law instead of the article 15 ruling,  can anyone clarify how this is possible? 
 How can a lawyer or solicitor give an affidavit of law if they dont know of the court order demanding his return and custody ?

Having a ruling that specifically references article 15 of the Abduction Convention is not uncommon but it's not necessary or even probably typical.  The key is really just demonstrating that you had custodial rights and were "actually exercising" them at the time of the illegal abduction or retention (or would have been if not for the same.)  What is required to do so may vary from country to country, and I certainly don't know how Irish law defines "custodial right" and "actually exercised" in this context but, nonetheless, I don't see why he can't use the Article 15 order and whatever "affidavit of law" he is referring to at the same time.  I can only guess that he is trying to avoid the cost/effort of having the order translated to Gaelic (although I've yet to meet an Irishman who doesn't speak English.)  Perhaps he is concerned about having the order "legalized" in Ireland, though it bears mentioning that the Convention explicitly states that no "legalization" of documents is required.

Regardless I would ask your attorney to be very clear on why he wants to exclude your Article 15 order.  I see no reason why he can't submit it into evidence along with his "affidavit."
They said they wouldnt enter it into evidence because it was independantly acquired. It was asked for by their CA . but they refuse to enter it because of she didnt represent herself in the matter.

uhh.. They won't enter it into evidence because it was "independently acquired?"  That's BULLSHIT.  Every piece of evidence I submit is "independently acquired."   What's more, every time I ask the US State Department to give me evidence that I have every right to, they make up an endless, and ever changing, line of reasons why they can't give it to me.  Just what the hell evidence do they plan to allow you to submit?  None?

In no uncertain terms this is a gross violation of the Hague Convention.  It is up to the judge to determine the probatory value of the evidence submitted, not the CENSORED attorney they have assigned to "represent you."

They are setting you up for failure.
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline StrngConviction

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 11:14:36 PM »
You can say that again, they had the odacity to ask me why I am so persistant to take him back to the states with me . As you know he does not want to come back with me , he has been brainwashed into thinking I am the demon here and that because I am pursuing this that I am the one causing all his heartache .He told me personally that " He HAS TO STAY , to take care of  Mother." He is feeling sorry for his abductor , The name of the syndrome" Helsinkie, or StockHolm"  , where they start to have feelings of protection with their abductor and captor. Here is a link describing it...
http://www.sniggle.net/stock.php.

Anyway , because he doesnt want to leave they say I should leave him there. That he is of age to decide what he wants and for that decision to be considered.He is 14.Now. One issue here , he says he is now settled in his new home , that he has friends now . That he and his Mother are WELL settled. Well as you all know , he was in a homeless shelter and halfway house for almost a half a year( this past year). Now they are being housed by the Goverment and given money to live on , free welfare , free housing , free medical.She doesnt work and has not worked in over a year. So , they are going to consider his opinion as an opinion that is mature enough to know what is in his best interest. Okay , I am cool with that , BUT. If they think that a mind his age that thinks that living in a homeless shelter and halfway house for abused and battered drug dependant families is a mature one, and in the best interest of that child. I want them to explain how. I so would love to make some smart a$$ comments about that , but now I know they watch this forum considering they quoted a few posts of mine from here :)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 01:21:50 AM by Bob D'Amico »
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Offline L.E.R.P.

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 02:09:10 AM »
My case in the EU is ongoing; I have already used the information/methods below in my case in the EU.

You have the right to request a representative from US Embassy or Consulate attend each hearing in foreign countries. From what I have read regarding your case, there is BIAS & PREDUDICE, this is one
additional reason they should attend your hearings. (Use Bias & Prejudice as a trump card if they resist)

“Your Attorney not accepting evidence” is a very bad sign and a huge violation of Hague on recognizing judgments which they are a party to(below), Hague Appostille, Annex of Hague, the list gets longer $including lawsuits$ with countries failing to follow the foundation of The Hague.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chain of Evidence- -Hague Apostille --US Embassy/Consulate = American Citizen Services (ACS)

    * Don’t send important/vital documents needed in Irish court direct to your attorney in Ireland,
    * Don’t send important/vital documents direct to AMC.
    * Keep the chain of evidence clean.    US Court direct to US Embassy/Consulate ->
        To your Irish Attorney->Into Irish Court.
    * Ask-Demand your Irish Attorney, always copies your ACS contact into every reply & email sent.
       If you suspect bull shit : **
    ** Begin Bcc: to ACS into email to your Irish attorney, in case he is taken you for a ride
       and is setting you up for failure as Sagedad pointed out.  My EU attorney did $lawsuit$+Judge.
    ** Control your Attorney, get everything in writing (bcc email's) what you are expecting, he should
         reply understands that he understands, without it becoming a misunderstanding Bcc: ACS  
        
   ** I got taken for a $50,000 dollar ride by my attorney this didn’t include translations and extra 6
         month un budgeted stay in EU.
      
You or your US Attorney:
1) Request the Court Clerk In MO send the "specific" document(s) to your (ACS) American Citizen
     Service @ Embassy or Consulate contact via  email and send hard copies direct to your AMC contact.
    Cced: You, your US Attorney, your Congressman, Senator and your Irish Attorney in

   * Don’t over flood the Irish court, Include Orders, Judgment’s and evidence that supports the common
      sense “plain English” goals you achieved in the USA.

2) Request that the clerk provide a cover letter.

         "Mr._____ has requested the county clerk of ______ to transmit the following court documents
          electronically.  The certified copies are in transit via_____________ mail service to the US
          Embassy/Consulate. The County of ____________ appreciates your courtesy in accepting the
          electronic versions in the interim, considering this very important matter. Enclosed are the
          following ________ County court Orders
          *______________________Date.
          *______________________Date.
          *______________________Date.
         _ County Court Clerk has sent these documents to American Citizen Service, US Embassy/Consulate    
            attention Vice Consulate General_______/Chief of American Citizens Services.

3) Once Hard Copies arrive if possible, have your attorney go to Embassy/Consulate. If Embassy/Consulate  must send to your attorney, ensure they are Signed & Sealed, you will have to pay for certified delivery cost.(Send cash in advance some Emb/Cons take credit cards. or Lost in the mail

If you follow the correct chain of evidence, your evidence meets Hague Apostil, Hague Evidence Conventions requirements under Hague. It goes on and on. Note I have already proven this to a resistant court in my case in the EU, you can research and you will find this.  I submitted 150 pages + using the method listed. Your AMC contact / Foreign Service Officer are an incredible asset, this continues in my case.

When American Citizen Service receives the documents: They are to attach and produce a cover letter to authenticate the source and transmission of your documents, which sent the cert copies, in route.   AMC Signs and Seals the document(s) AMC may have a cost per cover page.

The method of transmitting evidence is a part of the Hague Apostil on evidence.
Embassy’s & Consulates are very aware of the evidence chain and they know how countries operate and don’t operate; unfortunately you are not the first case they’ve had.

Is your current attorney on the US Embassy / Consulate list of attorneys in Ireland?
Do you have a solid contact, vice consulate, section chief in AMC?

Is your Congressman and Senator involved, they can apply a lot of pressure: 1. Ensure your being assisted by Embassy /Consulate. 2. Engage State Dept to interact on your behalf. 3. Much more..

Please know this Foreign Service Officers are as important, just as important as our military, those at the bottom get things done and those that have spent too much time looking down @ the bottom continue to lose touch with reality! Respect these people and kick their ass when they deserve it, all are Americans after all and parents. Expect your ass kicked back then get back in it~!
----------
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=authorities.details&aid=891
---------
chapter I - scope of the convention

Article 1

(1)  The objects of the present Convention are –

a) to determine the State whose authorities have jurisdiction to take measures directed to
    the protection of the person or property of the child; USA
b) to determine which law is to be applied by such authorities in exercising their    
    jurisdiction; USA
c) to determine the law applicable to parental responsibility; USA
d) to provide for the recognition and enforcement of such measures of protection in all    
    Contracting States; USA
e) to establish such co-operation between the authorities of the Contracting States as may
    be necessary in order to achieve the purposes of this Convention. USA
--------
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=status.comment&csid=185&disp=resdn
--------
Declarations
Articles: 23,26,34,52

Articles  23, 26 and 52 of the Convention allow Contracting Parties a degree of flexibility in order to apply a simple and rapid regime for the recognition and enforcement of judgments. The Community rules provide for a system of recognition and enforcement which is at least as favorable as the rules laid down in the Convention. Accordingly, a judgment given in a Court of a Member State of the European Union, in respect of a matter relating to the Convention, shall be recognized and enforced in Ireland by application of the relevant internal rules of Community law. BIAS/PREDUDICE UNLESS IRISH COURT  ACCEPTS #1 USA JURISDICTION #2 USA JUDGEMENTS

Ireland, pursuant to Article 34, paragraph 2 of the Convention, hereby declares that requests under paragraph 1 of Article 34 shall be communicated to its authorities only through its Central Authority

---------
www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-645.pdf
---------
June 2011 Hague “Special Commission” accepts the language of this VITAL US Supreme court ruling.
Throw this at your Irish Attorney!  Very important language Parental Alienation Syndrome [PAS]

http://www.hcch.net/upload/wop/concl28sc6_e.pdf
45. In relation to the autonomous Convention meaning of the term “rights of custody”, the Special Commission takes notice of Abbott v. Abbott, 130 S.Ct. 1983 (2010), which supports the view that a right of access combined with a right to determine the residence of the child constitutes a “right of custody” for the purposes of the Convention and acknowledges that it is a significant contribution towards achieving consistency on an international level regarding its interpretation.
I understand the challenge with your son, I went through this also though ½ as challenging as you.

I am not an attorney but it seems your irish attorney is drunk @ the wheel driving your case into a wall. I am a left behind parent and most importantly I Love My Kids!  
Keep kicking ass StrongConviction!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:45:10 AM by L.E.R.P. »
Failure is not defined by attempts to change what is wrong back to what is right; failure is defined by accepting what is wrong and doing nothing to change it!   L.E.R.P.

Offline L.E.R.P.

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 03:25:53 PM »
The fact that your Irish attorney is giving you grief about your US evidence should be a concern, red flag, from what you have posted, he is totally contradicting to the convention below.
--------------
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=authorities.details&aid=325
--------------
Ireland is a signatory:  Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalization for Foreign Public Documents [12]
Article 1
The present Convention shall apply to public documents which have been executed in the territory of one Contracting State and which have to be produced in the territory of another Contracting State.
For the purposes of the present Convention, the following are deemed to be public documents:
a)  documents emanating from an authority or an official connected with the courts or tribunals of the State, including those emanating from a public prosecutor, a clerk of a court or a process-server ("huissier de justice");
b)  administrative documents;
c)  notarial acts;
d)  official certificates which are placed on documents signed by persons in their private capacity, such as official certificates recording the registration of a document or the fact that it was in existence on a certain date and official and notarial authentications of signatures.
However, the present Convention shall not apply:
a)  to documents executed by diplomatic or consular agents;
* Delivery to us Embassy/Consulate from a)b)c)d) above isn't executing.
*Consular may not self generate their own documents i.e “Mr. Dumass was delayed because he was on the moon”) <-Signed & Sealed. <-No
* Embassy/Consulate would be ensuring/affirming the delivery of documents & authenticy
Definition of   EXECUTE
1: to carry out fully : put completely into effect <execute a command>
2: to do what is provided or required by <execute a decree>
3: to put to death especially in compliance with a legal sentence
4: to make or produce (as a work of art) especially by carrying out a design
5: to PERFORM what is required to give validity to <execute a deed>
b)  to administrative documents dealing directly with commercial or customs operations.

---------------
Common Sense:

What has more factual relevance, most weight, sends the strongest message?

1) Definition of AFFIDAVIT: a sworn statement in writing made especially under oath or
     on affirmation before an authorized magistrate or officer. <- Written by your Irish attorney.

OR

2)  Court Order, from a Judge in the United States of America, who has investigated the facts in
      your case while understanding the priniples of international law and given a judicial judgment !


« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 03:32:27 PM by L.E.R.P. »
Failure is not defined by attempts to change what is wrong back to what is right; failure is defined by accepting what is wrong and doing nothing to change it!   L.E.R.P.

Offline dmdaven2

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 03:36:38 PM »
He's 14 years old!? I think not only have they set you up for failure, but they are definitely going to listen to the teenagers wishes...although, isn't he old enough to travel alone? Maybe he'll come back soon voluntarily...especially if you have the plane ticket ready to go for him...
Devon Davenport - Father of Nadia Lynn ;)

Offline StrngConviction

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 06:01:09 PM »
He's 14 years old!? I think not only have they set you up for failure, but they are definitely going to listen to the teenagers wishes...although, isn't he old enough to travel alone? Maybe he'll come back soon voluntarily...especially if you have the plane ticket ready to go for him...
You would think 14 is of an age that he knows whats in his best interest , but when there is drugs and abuse involved its a whole other ball park . Dont mix apples and oranges. They are both abductions yes , but when there is drugs ( Meth and Heroin )and domestic abuse/assault involved there should NOT be any age limit that a childs wishes to stay in that situation should be honored or even condoned. To allow a childs wishes to stay in that situation is as much child abuse as giving them alchohol or drugs yourself. So please dont ....plus he has been there for years. Yes , I have failed him.
 Something I will never live down.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 06:03:25 PM by StrngConviction »
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Offline StrngConviction

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 07:21:01 PM »
He's 14 years old!? I think not only have they set you up for failure, but they are definitely going to listen to the teenagers wishes...although, isn't he old enough to travel alone? Maybe he'll come back soon voluntarily...especially if you have the plane ticket ready to go for him...
You would think 14 is of an age that he knows whats in his best interest , but when there is drugs and abuse involved its a whole other ball park . Dont mix apples and oranges. They are both abductions yes , but when there is drugs ( Meth and Heroin )and domestic abuse/assault involved there should NOT be any age limit that a childs wishes to stay in that situation should be honored or even condoned. To allow a childs wishes to stay in that situation is as much child abuse as giving them alchohol or drugs yourself. So please dont ....plus he has been there for years. Yes , I have failed him.
 Something I will never live down.
Hey Daven , sorry if that sounded wrong , i tried to edit it once i reread it . Thanks for your input . I have just been told time and time again to just let go that he will make his mind up on his own. He is scared for his Mother and will subject himself to this crap thinking he can handle it without being coerced(spelling?). My problem is I know children that have thought that just to be turned down the wrong path. Kind of like the saying , hang around crap long enough you start stinking. His ideology has already changed dramtically. His thought process is nothing like it used to be. He used to be so confident and full of himself , now he just talks depression and suicide . He is at an age where his Mother is influencing every aspect of his life, even while i was there she would call him on the phone crying , playing on his emotions. Telling him not to let me turn him against her. In fact she had him so convinced i would we argued the fact that he said I was trying to turn him against her  and I never even mentioned her while I was there. I am so afraid that she might even allow him to do drugs. He is not the same at ALL.
Behind this smile is something only we LBP understand.
                May God be with ALL our children.

Offline dmdaven2

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Re: Dylan Warren abducted from US >Ireland 2010
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 11:42:34 PM »
He's 14 years old!? I think not only have they set you up for failure, but they are definitely going to listen to the teenagers wishes...although, isn't he old enough to travel alone? Maybe he'll come back soon voluntarily...especially if you have the plane ticket ready to go for him...
You would think 14 is of an age that he knows whats in his best interest , but when there is drugs and abuse involved its a whole other ball park . Dont mix apples and oranges. They are both abductions yes , but when there is drugs ( Meth and Heroin )and domestic abuse/assault involved there should NOT be any age limit that a childs wishes to stay in that situation should be honored or even condoned. To allow a childs wishes to stay in that situation is as much child abuse as giving them alchohol or drugs yourself. So please dont ....plus he has been there for years. Yes , I have failed him.
 Something I will never live down.
Hey Daven , sorry if that sounded wrong , i tried to edit it once i reread it . Thanks for your input . I have just been told time and time again to just let go that he will make his mind up on his own. He is scared for his Mother and will subject himself to this crap thinking he can handle it without being coerced(spelling?). My problem is I know children that have thought that just to be turned down the wrong path. Kind of like the saying , hang around crap long enough you start stinking. His ideology has already changed dramtically. His thought process is nothing like it used to be. He used to be so confident and full of himself , now he just talks depression and suicide . He is at an age where his Mother is influencing every aspect of his life, even while i was there she would call him on the phone crying , playing on his emotions. Telling him not to let me turn him against her. In fact she had him so convinced i would we argued the fact that he said I was trying to turn him against her  and I never even mentioned her while I was there. I am so afraid that she might even allow him to do drugs. He is not the same at ALL.

It's all good man, I feel you and where you're coming from...situation at hand is just unfortunate, especially because he's able to speak his mind...and so it may take a level of maturation for your son to reflect back and realize hind sight is 20/20 and that you had his best interest in mind...
Devon Davenport - Father of Nadia Lynn ;)