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Author Topic: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???  (Read 35049 times)

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Offline hatufim.org

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2009, 11:49:09 AM »
Quote from: André Felipe;22155
a preliminary decision ordering the return seems to me is very unlilkey to happen, and if it happened, it doesnīt fit with your affirmative "Brasil has no intention of returning...".
 
One of the requirements for a preliminary decision is the possibility of the decision can be reversible, and sending the children to another country when both parents are fighting against each other, it doesnīt not seem to me like a situation where the preliminary decision can be reversed. In other words, if the judge gave you a favourable preliminary decision is because he wants your child/children back to your arms.
 
In Brasil, each judges have thousands of proceedings to deal with, so itīs almost inevitable HC proceedings will take more than six weeks to be analysed, and itīs doesnīt necessarily means "Brasil" doesnt want to return abducted children just because more than six weeks have passed.

I agree with you that just because more than 6-weeks have passed it's no indication that Brazil does not want to return my children. But as mentioned in my previous post, there are many other reasons that have lead me to believe that the BCA and the Court handling this case will not return my children.
 
I have discussed this documents with people from Brazil that I know in Florida, and while they are not lawyers, they have said that a 6 month delay to issue this decision would have been normal in Brazil, but it took 20 months from the time the BCA received the application to the time the initial motion was filed by the AGU. They believe that 20-months is an excesive delay. Is 20-months a normal delay? And then, in the preliminary decision, the Court points out that the children have already been in Brazil for 2 years, and that this may be a reason for not returning them. Also, from what is written in the preliminary decision, they feel the Court is not going to order the return of the children. The Court has aknowledged the facts, but they are now giving all types of psychological explanations and have stated that they are not obligated to return the children under the Hague Convention, saying that the best interest of the children is the purpose of this Hague Convention. So now they will probably want to decide if it's in the best interest of the children to stay in Brazil or to be returned.
 
I could also add that based on what has been happening with the case of Sean Goldman, and what I have read about all the other cases mentioned in this forum, it leads me to believe that Brazil has no intention of returning my children. Therefore, I have offered these proposals to Smadar Hameiry in order to obtain the return of my children. You can call it paying ransom or just accepting the facts of life, but if I do not make this offer, I do not know if I will ever see my children again.

Offline sue

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2009, 12:24:20 PM »
Something needs to be changed.  Brazil needs a speicial judiciary branch to handle Hague only cases so they can be done in the 6 weeks time frame.  To keep a parent waiting for 20 months is torture and then because of their slowness to keep the children is even worse.  Something needs to change.  I know if the shoes were reversed, Brazil would be having a fit.

Offline ENR

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2009, 01:53:19 PM »
Quote from: gail;22335
Something needs to be changed.  Brazil needs a speicial judiciary branch to handle Hague only cases so they can be done in the 6 weeks time frame.  To keep a parent waiting for 20 months is torture and then because of their slowness to keep the children is even worse.  Something needs to change.  I know if the shoes were reversed, Brazil would be having a fit.


Yes, I agree, a separate Judiciary with judges trained specifically to rule on these cases in a timely matter so that these cases don't get dragged out and become what they are today.  All the mental torture is completely unnecessary and if the Hague was just followed the way it is designed to be then all this heart ache and mental anguish would be avoided.  Yes, big changes need to happen.

Offline tweinstein

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2009, 02:54:15 PM »
Quote from: hatufim.org;22331
They believe that 20-months is an excesive delay. Is 20-months a normal delay?
In my case, it took 9 months for the AGU to initiate proceedings and another 8 for the case to be heard. It has now been 14 months without a ruling.

Offline ENR

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2009, 03:10:28 PM »
Quote from: tweinstein;22355
In my case, it took 9 months for the AGU to initiate proceedings and another 8 for the case to be heard. It has now been 14 months without a ruling.


This is just so wrong.  As more of these cases come to light and really make the government seem inadequate in handling these kinds of cases hopefully, something will change and these cases will begin to be resolved at a faster pace as even sighted as should happen in the Hague Convention.  I just hope and pray that things begin to change for the better as I can only imagine all the pain and agony these long delays bring to all LBPs.  I think BSHF is beginning to clue in the government that they have seriously dropped the ball and it is time to step up.

Offline Dan_Plainview

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2009, 04:04:57 PM »
Even if it is hard dealing with the DoS-OCI, you need to persevere. Build up your emotional resistance each day for the call and 'just do it'. It is a necessary evil to get your children home. Try to be nice. They are doing a job and do not have the passion that you have ... but their job is to provide you this information. Their job is to shake the information out of the BCA/ AGU.
 
If there is documented information that the TP can follow the children back in the case of a return this needs to be clear in the AGU's filing(s).
 
You asked for my opinion. My opinion is that if the Judge wants you at a hearing and/ or to be deposed ... you should go. The AGU should be able to stay any family court orders that are in place or that might arise.
 
Alot of people think that David & Sean's case will not greatly help other left-behind parents because Bruna is dead and therefore anomolous. I would like to think that this whole mess could have been avoided if the Court had done the just thing 4 1/2 years ago ... and that going forward that Brazil can avoid future embarrassment by making responsible judgements.
 
The BCA/ AGU did you wrong. 20 months is at least twice as long as anything else I have heard. They are your Attorney (not actually your Attorney but work with me). The Brazilian Federal Court has not done you wrong, yet. Their response to the AGU's filing was typical. All they said was "wait, let's hear the taking parents side to make sure there is aren't any grave risk concerns". Effectively, they agreed in part to the AGU's assertion that:
 
1) Florida is the "habitual residence"
 
2) That you were asseting your custody rights when the children were wrongfully rmoved.
 
Be angry with the DoS-OCI, but continue to badger them and be professional.
 
Be angry with the AGU for taking so long ... but now they are fighting for your cause and from what you say they seem to be representing you well at this point.
 
The Federal Court in Sao Paulo has not wronged you, yet. If they request your presence there, I would go taking every precaution the AGU can give. I would stop initiating mediation with the TP.
 
Keep the faith!
 
Just one opinion (actually, maybe 4 or 5) ...
Dan
 
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Offline tweinstein

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Please Respond to My Survey
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2009, 06:31:10 PM »
I posted a survey recently asking LBPs about their experiences with the AGU/BCA and OCI. Since people are discussing this topic in this thread, I thought it was reasonable to direct some traffic to my survey.

http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?p=22097#post22097

Offline André Felipe

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2009, 08:00:32 PM »
Quote from: hatufim.org;22326

About the trip to Brazil, I have been told by many people that I cannot go to Brazil for any reason until the Federal Court has issued a final judgment ordering the return of the children and stating that I can travel to Brazil and pick them up. Many people have told me that if I go to Brazil before this happens, that I could be arrested and forced to pay child support for my abducted children and sign over custody to my ex-wife. What is your opinion about this?

In Brasil, differently from US, a parent can not travel with the kids without the permission of the other parent, and this permission must be clear and written in a public office, with the presence of both parents, in front of an official so he can testify it was a valid permission.
 
So, you can not come to Brasil and pick up the child and leave the country without that permission of the mother. You can only do this with a judge order.
 
About child support, in this situations is better the LBP do a little investigation to know if the "kidnapper" mother/father initiated a lawsuit asking child support in a Family Law State Court.
 
Once the "kidnapper" initiate the lawsuit, he/she may ask the judge to give the order without "listening" first the LBP. Depending on the situation and the arguments, the judge may order it or not. If he/she order it, the parent/LBP must pay and obey the order within 3 days.
 
The judge can only give a prison order if:
 
1) the parent was found and was given acknowledge about the obligation to give child support; and;
 
2) the parent (LBP) doesnīt pay and doesnīt say why he wonīt or why he canīt pay it., and;
 
3) the parent/LBP didnīt pay the last 3 months of child support.
 
So, you will only be arrested here if your ex-wife initiated a lawsuit more than 3 months earlier, an Courtīs Offcial finds you and say to you there is a judge order for child support and if you donīt do nothing during 3 days.
 
Itīs better you look for some attorney to help you on avoiding this problem, so if a Courtīs Official finds you, the attorney must answer and explain the judge the whole history, I believe any reasonable judge would order a child support after he/she be aware that the issue is about International Abduction of a child, or when the Federal Justice didnīt yet decided if it is or not a HC case.

Offline tweinstein

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2009, 10:50:13 PM »
In regards to arrest for non-payment of child support, I just received tentative confirmation that the AGU filed motions to stay the order against me. This clears the way for me to travel to visit my children without the risk of arrest.

Offline sue

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2009, 10:47:56 AM »
Quote from: tweinstein;22602
In regards to arrest for non-payment of child support, I just received tentative confirmation that the AGU filed motions to stay the order against me. This clears the way for me to travel to visit my children without the risk of arrest.
Oh my God.  To think that someone can abduct your children to another country and then ask for child support is just unbelievalbe to me.  And then the threat of being arrested, great way to keep the LBP away from their children forever.  What do they base the amount of child support on?  Do they ask for annual salary from the LBP?  And if they don't get the information from the LBP, how do they know it is accurate?  This is all so wrong in so many ways, it makes me feel helpless.

Offline André Felipe

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2009, 11:03:01 AM »
Quote from: gail;22624
Oh my God. To think that someone can abduct your children to another country and then ask for child support is just unbelievalbe to me. And then the threat of being arrested, great way to keep the LBP away from their children forever. What do they base the amount of child support on? Do they ask for annual salary from the LBP? And if they don't get the information from the LBP, how do they know it is accurate? This is all so wrong in so many ways, it makes me feel helpless.

thatīs a disgusting maneuver.
The payment is monthly, and the amount is based on the regular expenses a child has to education and health and it depends on the social-economic status of the LBP, kidnapper mom or dad and the child.
 
One correction: the judge will always order the payment even before the judge listen to LBPīs arguments, except if the kidnapper parent says he/she doesnīt need it immediatly.
 
As the LBP not lives in Brasil and so sending an official to LBPīs home to inform about the order is impossible, the kidnapper may ask the judge to publish the order in the Official Press, so, after 3 days of the the publishing, and if the LBP come to Brasil, he/she will be at the risk of being arrested.
 
Thatīs very unfair with LBP and I donīt have sure about how exactly is the proceedings when the parent doesnīt live inside brasil territory, I will ask a Family Law judge how exactly is the proceeding when the "debtor" is a foreigner.
 
But I believe any Family Law judge would revoke a childīs suport order when he heard about the whole situation.

Offline sue

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2009, 11:03:03 AM »
How brazen these women are.  So mighty and bold hiding behind anther country, I would love to see them have to come back and answer for their behavior.  This is what needs to be done, these women need to be sent back with their children and face what they have done.  Very brazen while being protected by another country, makes me sick.

Offline sue

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2009, 11:07:45 AM »
Quote from: André Felipe;22625
thatīs a disgusting maneuver.
The payment is monthly, and the amount is based on the regular expenses a child has to education and health and it depends on the social-economic status of the LBP, kidnapper mom or dad and the child.
 
One correction: the judge will always order the payment even before the judge listen to LBPīs arguments, except if the kidnapper parent says he/she doesnīt need it immediatly.
 
As the LBP not lives in Brasil and so sending an official to LBPīs home to inform about the order is impossible, the kidnapper may ask the judge to publish the order in the Official Press, so, after 3 days of the the publishing, and if the LBP come to Brasil, he/she will be at the risk of being arrested.
Thatīs very unfair with LBP and I donīt have sure about how exactly is the proceedings when the parent doesnīt live inside brasil territory, I will ask a Family Law judge how exactly is the proceeding when the "debtor" is a foreigner.
 
But I believe any Family Law judge would revoke a childīs suport order when he discover about the whole situation.
What if the LBP cannot afford the child support the judge orders?  They need to know how much the LBP makes each year and that cannot and should not come from the abducting parent.  They have no problem stealing children from the  LBP, they have no problem with lying about how much money the LBP makes.  And to publish this in the paper?  The LBP does not read the Brazil newspapers.  This is so wrong.  Change needs to come in this country of yours.

Offline André Felipe

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2009, 11:15:10 AM »
Quote from: gail;22627
What if the LBP cannot afford the child support the judge orders? They need to know how much the LBP makes each year and that cannot and should not come from the abducting parent. They have no problem stealing children from the LBP, they have no problem with lying about how much money the LBP makes. And to publish this in the paper? The LBP does not read the Brazil newspapers. This is so wrong. Change needs to come in this country of yours.

the LBP will be arrested if he/she doesnīt do nothing.
So, he/she must answer to the judge, through an attorney or AGU or a public attorney, that he/she can not afford the support payment, and then the judge will revoke the order.
 
I am just saying how the law is, and of course the law wasnīt written to be applied with those situation when the parents lives in different countries, so, I believe there are some differences when the judge knows the father/mother doesnīt lives in Brasil. And of course the kidnapper parent would never say to the judge "I left USA without permission of my fatherīs kids and am living in Brasil with my kids without his consent, and now I want a child support", no judge would give what the kidnapper wants if he knows what is actually happening.

Offline SageDad

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Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2009, 12:04:25 PM »
Quote from: gail;22627
What if the LBP cannot afford the child support the judge orders?  They need to know how much the LBP makes each year and that cannot and should not come from the abducting parent.  They have no problem stealing children from the  LBP, they have no problem with lying about how much money the LBP makes.  And to publish this in the paper?  The LBP does not read the Brazil newspapers.  This is so wrong.  Change needs to come in this country of yours.


There is a Hague Convention on international child support that should be used in these cases though the name of it escapes me now.  Perhaps Brazil has not acceeded to it or perhaps it just ignores it like the abduction convention.  It actually has been used by abductors to collect child support from LBP's in the US with the help of the OCI in the past.  I'd like to think they have corrected that oversite of theirs but I'm not sure that they have.
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