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Bring Sean Home Foundation => International Abduction Cases => Bordaty => Topic started by: hatufim.org on April 23, 2009, 06:27:54 PM

Title: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on April 23, 2009, 06:27:54 PM
I think I may have won my Hague case (see www.hatufim.org (http://www.hatufim.org)), at least the first round. Here is the story:
 
I got an email on April 1, 2009, from Brazilian officials handling my case saying: "Your Hague application was analysed by the Attorney General’s Office and a petition was filed at the Federal Court in Sao Paulo. Meanwhile the case is undergoing judicial proceedings and a preliminary decision was issued..."
 
So I requested to have a copy sent to me of the petition and of the preliminary Court decision. I was told they could only send me a copy of the petition (but not the decision) through the US State Dept.
 
So far, the US State Dept has failed to confirmed that they have received any such documents from Brazil. They have a copy of the email, they called them, nothing. The interesting thing is that in the past the US State Dept had informed me that Brazil had ignored my Hague application and that they would not be returning my children.
 
So, I am confused, and have a few questions:
 
1.- Has this ever happened to anyone else here?
 
2.- What does this mean? First they tell me that a preliminary decision was issued, and then, they do not want to send it to me???
 
3.- How can I get a copy of this Federal Court decision?
 
I assume that the reason they do not want to send me a copy of the court decision is because it's in my favor. What do you think?
 
Thanks!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on April 23, 2009, 07:04:43 PM
Can you contact the attorney directly? My concern is that if the ruling was now 3 weeks ago, your children's mother has already filed an appeal. This doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on April 23, 2009, 08:10:33 PM
How incredibly frustrating...  It's one thing to wait the huge periods of time for anything to happen in these cases.. but having to wait weeks or months to even hear what has happened is totally unacceptable.. though no surprising... Why is OCI not able to give you such basic information on your case?  Actually nevermind, I know why...  One of the good things about having a private attorney are that I don't have to deal with any of that BS.  When something happens in my case i'm one of the first to know about it.  I almost always know before the Central Authority of Mexico or the OCI's knows.

I'm assuming the AGU is representing you in Brazil, can you contact them directly?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on April 23, 2009, 08:32:49 PM
a preliminary decision favourable to you... thatīs very unusual, and a very good signal.

I think you should contact AGU to know better whatīs happening.

I donīt know how things works in Sao Pauloīs Federal Court, and how they contact foreigner people who is not envolved directly in the proceeding and doesnīt have private attorney, but I think they could at least say to you if it was favourable or non favourable.

Peharps São Pauloīs Federal Court shows, in its website, about the decision, if you have the proceeding number. Or give it to me and I will see in the website if itīs possible.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on April 23, 2009, 09:54:07 PM
That's a wonderful and promising sign, but, being the pessimist or shall I say Devil's advocate, I wonder if some movement on other cases, ANY movement on other cases, even if it's in circles, would give the watching world the idea that maybe Brazil was going to get it act together and start following the Treaty's protocols?.....I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but they are in GREAT NEED of a PR boost, and possibly the appearance of complying, even if it's NOT in the Goldman case might bring them some POSITIVE publicity???? What do you think?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on April 23, 2009, 10:07:30 PM
I donīt know sashia...usually judges donīt bow to the press and public opinion (national or international) but that is a possibility.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on April 23, 2009, 11:24:44 PM
Then in the spirit of positive energy, I'm going to assume that the people handling the case truly intend to stick to the Hague as it was written and that soon, very soon, you'll have those 3 wonderful kids back home with you.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: dmdaven2 on April 23, 2009, 11:49:51 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;19312
I think I may have won my Hague case (see www.hatufim.org (http://www.hatufim.org)), at least the first round. Here is the story:
 
I got an email on April 1, 2009, from Brazilian officials handling my case saying: "Your Hague application was analysed by the Attorney General’s Office and a petition was filed at the Federal Court in Sao Paulo. Meanwhile the case is undergoing judicial proceedings and a preliminary decision was issued..."
 
So I requested to have a copy sent to me of the petition and of the preliminary Court decision. I was told they could only send me a copy of the petition (but not the decision) through the US State Dept.
 
So far, the US State Dept has failed to confirmed that they have received any such documents from Brazil. They have a copy of the email, they called them, nothing. The interesting thing is that in the past the US State Dept had informed me that Brazil had ignored my Hague application and that they would not be returning my children.
 
So, I am confused, and have a few questions:
 
1.- Has this ever happened to anyone else here?
 
2.- What does this mean? First they tell me that a preliminary decision was issued, and then, they do not want to send it to me???
 
3.- How can I get a copy of this Federal Court decision?
 
I assume that the reason they do not want to send me a copy of the court decision is because it's in my favor. What do you think?
 
Thanks!


Well the key word is preliminary...

so that's not an official decision
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on April 24, 2009, 12:06:40 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;19325

I think you should contact AGU to know better whatīs happening.

Peharps São Pauloīs Federal Court shows, in its website, about the decision, if you have the proceeding number. Or give it to me and I will see in the website if itīs possible.

So far, I have not been able to get a copy of this document, I don't know the number. Is it possible to find it by family name?
 
What's the website of the Sao Paulo Federal Court?
 
Thanks!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on April 24, 2009, 12:15:18 AM
Quote from: tweinstein;19315
Can you contact the attorney directly? My concern is that if the ruling was now 3 weeks ago, your children's mother has already filed an appeal. This doesn't make much sense.

I have never spoken to the AGU, I don't have their phone number. I don't even know who to ask for.
 
Maybe the reason they are not sending me the documents is to give her time to file an appeal? But in any case, from what I know, she must be given the chance to file an appeal, right?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on April 24, 2009, 12:24:36 AM
Quote from: carlos;19323
How incredibly frustrating... It's one thing to wait the huge periods of time for anything to happen in these cases.. but having to wait weeks or months to even hear what has happened is totally unacceptable.. though no surprising... Why is OCI not able to give you such basic information on your case? Actually nevermind, I know why... One of the good things about having a private attorney are that I don't have to deal with any of that BS. When something happens in my case i'm one of the first to know about it. I almost always know before the Central Authority of Mexico or the OCI's knows.
 
I'm assuming the AGU is representing you in Brazil, can you contact them directly?

I will try to contact the AGU or someone in Brazil again tomorrow. My children were abducted more than 2 years ago, so this news from Brazil took everyone by surprise. The US State Dept had already told me that Brazil had ignored my Hague petition and that they would not be returning my children. They asked me if I wanted to ask for visitation rights.
 
Also interesting is the fact that they (BMJ and BCA) are refusing to assist me in communicating with my children.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on April 24, 2009, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;19397
I will try to contact the AGU or someone in Brazil again tomorrow. My children were abducted more than 2 years ago, so this news from Brazil took everyone by surprise. The US State Dept had already told me that Brazil had ignored my Hague petition and that they would not be returning my children. They asked me if I wanted to ask for visitation rights.
 
Also interesting is the fact that they (BMJ and BCA) are refusing to assist me in communicating with my children.


Call the OCI and demand they give you contact info for the AGU and the BCA so you can get info on your case if they are not going to get it for you and give it to you directly.  You can also call the NCMEC and speak with your caseworker there.  They can also give you this information and are more pleasent to deal with than the beaurocratic DMV experience of talking to OCI.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on April 24, 2009, 05:34:07 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;19392
So far, I have not been able to get a copy of this document, I don't know the number. Is it possible to find it by family name?
 
What's the website of the Sao Paulo Federal Court?
 
Thanks!

oh my, you must have that number and also more contact with AGU!
 
http://www.trf3.gov.br/ , thatīs the website of the Federal Court of São Paulo, but the proceeding is running under secrecy of justice, so I believe a research by the family name wonīt help.
 
would help a lot a private lawyer in São Paulo...
 
she can fill an appeal against the preliminary decision, but we donīt have sure what this decisions is talking about.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on April 24, 2009, 09:43:14 PM
I have spoken to the lead attorney at the AGU many times in the past, but all three numbers I used successfully previously didn't work when I tried them earlier this month. :nixweiss:Sorry.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: jdv28 on April 24, 2009, 10:56:03 PM
They didn't give you any papers from that hearing?  You got NOTHING???
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on April 29, 2009, 09:37:10 PM
Could it be that the AGU has just accepted that your case meets the requirement to file under the Hague and that the "decision" after filing was just to serve the abductor and seize the abductor and children's passports??? I think it is a strong possibility. You need to contact your attorney at the AGU (Now that you have one assigned)!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on April 29, 2009, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;20148
Could it be that the AGU has just accepted that your case meets the requirement to file under the Hague and that the "decision" after filing was just to serve the abductor and seize the abductor and children's passports??? I think it is a strong possibility. You need to contact your attorney at the AGU (Now that you have one assigned)!
Technically, the LBP is not permitted to speak to the attorney at the AGU. The plaintiff is the Brazilian government, not the LBP. Every time I spoke to the attorney representing my interests, he reminded me that he was doing me a favor. When he felt that my questions were becoming too demanding (before the phone numbers stopped working), he simply told me not to call back again.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Bree on April 29, 2009, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;20150
Technically, the LBP is not permitted to speak to the attorney at the AGU. The plaintiff is the Brazilian government, not the LBP. Every time I spoke to the attorney representing my interests, he reminded me that he was doing me a favor. When he felt that my questions were becoming too demanding (before the phone numbers stopped working), he simply told me not to call back again.

What a way to make someone feel supported!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on April 29, 2009, 10:22:25 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;20150
Technically, the LBP is not permitted to speak to the attorney at the AGU. The plaintiff is the Brazilian government, not the LBP. Every time I spoke to the attorney representing my interests, he reminded me that he was doing me a favor. When he felt that my questions were becoming too demanding (before the phone numbers stopped working), he simply told me not to call back again.

Of course you are right Tim. I forgot that when you use the BCA/AGU it is USA vs. Brazil (or is it BCA vs. TP?) ... when you have personal representation (like David) it is LBP vs. TP. Isn't that so?  I also think that the OCI isn't technically involved if/when you hire private counsel.

If there is a hearing, how is it that you find out so that you can be deposed etc?!?! Are you to rely on the communication between the BCA/AGU and OCI. That's broke by all accounts!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: dmdaven2 on April 30, 2009, 05:03:06 AM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;20153
Of course you are right Tim. I forgot that when you use the BCA/AGU it is USA vs. Brazil (or is it BCA vs. TP?) ... when you have personal representation (like David) it is LBP vs. TP. Isn't that so?  I also think that the OCI isn't technically involved if/when you hire private counsel.

If there is a hearing, how is it that you find out so that you can be deposed etc?!?! Are you to rely on the communication between the BCA/AGU and OCI. That's broke by all accounts!


The idea is to not return children at all...that's the main goal of the US Dept of State and everyone in Brazil

Essentially...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on April 30, 2009, 06:28:03 AM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;20153
Of course you are right Tim. I forgot that when you use the BCA/AGU it is USA vs. Brazil (or is it BCA vs. TP?) ... when you have personal representation (like David) it is LBP vs. TP. Isn't that so?  I also think that the OCI isn't technically involved if/when you hire private counsel.

If there is a hearing, how is it that you find out so that you can be deposed etc?!?! Are you to rely on the communication between the BCA/AGU and OCI. That's broke by all accounts!
When you use the AGU, it is Brazil vs TP and the BCA and OCI are involved. When you use a private attorney, it is LBP vs TP and the BCA and OCI are not involved. The BCA and AGU are only involved in David's case because of the publicity and complexity.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on April 30, 2009, 10:27:41 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;19508
oh my, you must have that number and also more contact with AGU!
 
http://www.trf3.gov.br/ , thatīs the website of the Federal Court of São Paulo, but the proceeding is running under secrecy of justice, so I believe a research by the family name wonīt help.
 
would help a lot a private lawyer in São Paulo...
 
she can fill an appeal against the preliminary decision, but we donīt have sure what this decisions is talking about.

If it is that the "decision" at this point was to serve the TP with court papers and seize the documents then I think at this point it may not be being run under secrecy of justice ...

Wish there were a way to know more ... I guess the process is to rely on the OCI, which is understaffed, there is a time difference and a language barrier with BCA. On the other end, the BCA/AGU are understffed, as well ... which nicely feeds into the slow system that doesn't return children because too much time has passed. If they cared at all, staffing the BCA and AGU would be a good start. But that will be the last thing that they do because their six weeks doesn't technically start until the first filing, right?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Wendy on April 30, 2009, 11:02:54 AM
Ok...after reading all of the posts in this thread I have to say that the system as it is is seriously broken and you all should be SERIOUSLY pissed off about that.  Once you all get your kids back, I say we start fighiting with these organizations to do their jobs! Whether or not you have a private attorney should have NO affect on the kind of information you get in this regard. It's the most pathetic pile of beaurocratic garbage I've seen in a while.  
 
Also with regards to the Dept. of State and the OCI, I think "we" need to get after Obama to clear this mess.  Clearly there is a lack of transparency with these offices!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: kmoor88 on April 30, 2009, 11:20:50 AM
Emails, letters and phone calls is not working. We get an automated reply. Old fashioned in your face protesting always gets the message across loud and clear. The left behind parents have suffered long enough with no changes or penalties for not complying with the Hague Convention.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on April 30, 2009, 04:49:31 PM
Here is an update on the case. After almost a month of phone calls and emails, I finally got a copy of the petition filed by the AGU, and the preliminary court decision.
 
I am posting this info here not to complain about anything going on there, but to get your opinions and advice, to know if you have seen anything like this before, and if not, just to let you know how things work when you have a very solid Hague case.
 
What I understood from the papers is because I speak Spanish but not Portuguese. The initial petition written by the AGU was very well written, no complaints with that.
 
The Court decision appears to be in my favor completely in regards to the Hague case itself, but there appear to be some indications of a few problems.
 
The first problem is the issue of the dates. My children were abducted on March 20, 2007. The BCA received the complete request for the return of my children on July 13, 2007. The initial petition was filed on March 2, 2009. The question is: What happened during all this time? It took about 20 months to file a petition? The issue of the time that went by is being used against me...
 
The court finds that the children were illegaly removed from the USA, illegaly brought into Brazil, that I have legal custody of the children, and that the Brazilian custody orders may be null and void, although they want to first see the papers of the alleged Brazilian divorce done by Smadar.
 
The court decision says that because 2 years have already passed, they no longer have to return the children ... Article 12 is cited ...
 
They did request for all the children's passports to be confiscated so that Smadar does not move the children to another country.
 
The court decision also mentions Article 13 and that separating the children from their mother will cause psychological harm to the children...
 
I sent them a few questions and comments. I requested to talk to the AGU directly. In the past, I have been told that I cannot talk to the AGU because they are not representing me nor working for me.
 
From the beginning I have requested to the BCA and the USCA (US State Dept) that I want to communicate with my children. This issue is not even mentioned in the decision except for saying that since the children have been abducted for more than 2 years, it may not be in their best interest to be returned.
 
Also, the issue of child support is mentioned. I don't understand exactly if what they mean to say by that is that I have to pay child support for my abducted children?
 
I have been told in the past that if I travel to Brazil I will be arrested and put in jail until I agree to pay a large amount in child support. Has anybody else heard of this?
 
I have also been told that I may be arrested if I travel to Brazil and forced to sign papers giving away custody of my children to the abducting mother. Has anybody else heard of this?
 
In the meantime, I am not being allowed to contact my children and this fact is being used against me instead of against the abductor.
 
And all this despite the fact that I have by all accounts a "very strong" Hague case...
 
And one other thing: The preliminary decision was reached on March 11, 2009, it was faxed to the BCA on March 19, 2009. After contacting the BCA, I was told by email about this decision on April 1, 2009. I immediately requested to see a copy of these documents and I was told they could not send me a copy of the preliminary decision. In the end, these documents were faxed to the USCA until April 24, 2009. The Court also wanted to get additional information within 30 days of March 11, 2009, that's April 11, 2009. Do you see a problem here?
 
It seems to me that the AGU and the Brazilian Court are working very fast, but that the BCA retained the petition for the return of my children for a very long time. What do you think?
 
The last I heard from the BCA was in April 14 when they told me that: "In view of the high number of cases, and growing workload..." not to contact them again directly, only through the USCA.
 
As I said before I am not complaining about anything, just looking for your advice, opinions, and to let you know what happens during a very strong Hague case when the Brazilian Court had already accepted the fact that the abducting mother violated the laws of Brazil and the USA when she abducted the children to Brazil, and commited acts of fraud during the alleged Brazilian divorce, and does not have legal custody of the children...
 
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: dmdaven2 on April 30, 2009, 04:59:29 PM
I think you need to document precisely the concerns you have based on dates and timing and get answers.

Hold these people accountable...make it known that the shady things involved in your case which don't make sense shall not be accepted without logical reasoning, and if no logical explanation is available then you need to strongly suggest they IMMEDIATELY return your child, which is CLEARLY stated in the Hague

That's be problem, it's not about other documents and he said she said...the Hague is...hey we have an abducted child, were they illegally brought here? If the answer is yes, the ONLY thing left to hear is if the defendant makes a complaint using  one of the factors enumerated in Article 12. If the defendant can't disprove that the child was habitually residing in the US, that you were exercising custody, your child is under 16, or prove that should the child return they'd be in GRAVE danger...then finito...case over...order the return of your child...PERIOD
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: jl2saint on April 30, 2009, 05:11:45 PM
Also, the issue of child support is mentioned. I don't understand exactly if what they mean to say by that is that I have to pay child support for my abducted children?
 
I have been told in the past that if I travel to Brazil I will be arrested and put in jail until I agree to pay a large amount in child support. Has anybody else heard of this?

Everybody has heard of it......

Helvecio Ribiero ignorantly spouted similar jargin on Larry King about David ( Haven't heard from OL Helvecio since that fiasco....lol.....He must have gotten fired for being the worlds worst family spokeman....)

And the sad part is, they actually think that you should........
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on April 30, 2009, 05:35:46 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;20226
The first problem is the issue of the dates. My children were abducted on March 20, 2007. The BCA received the complete request for the return of my children on July 13, 2007. The initial petition was filed on March 2, 2009. The question is: What happened during all this time? It took about 20 months to file a petition? The issue of the time that went by is being used against me...
It took 9 months to file my case. I have now been waiting since March 14, 2008 for a ruling. Kelvin Birotte's timeline is almost the same as mine.
 
The court decision says that because 2 years have already passed, they no longer have to return the children ... Article 12 is cited ...
 
They did request for all the children's passports to be confiscated so that Smadar does not move the children to another country.
 
The court decision also mentions Article 13 and that separating the children from their mother will cause psychological harm to the children...
 Read my latest article. This is standard practice.

 I sent them a few questions and comments. I requested to talk to the AGU directly. In the past, I have been told that I cannot talk to the AGU because they are not representing me nor working for me.They are extremely overworked. I have spoken to them in the past, but most recently, they told me not to call. I think they genuinely want to help us, but when they get frustrated, they fall back on standard protocol.
 
Also, the issue of child support is mentioned. I don't understand exactly if what they mean to say by that is that I have to pay child support for my abducted children? This worries me. According to Article 16, custody or anything else can't be argued unless the court first declares that the children do not need to be returned. Now that this has occurred, I fear that she could go after you for child support.
 
I have been told in the past that if I travel to Brazil I will be arrested and put in jail until I agree to pay a large amount in child support. Has anybody else heard of this?Yes. This is exactly why I just petitioned the AGU to file a stay against the child support order. I guess the judge's lack of action is actually working on my behalf here. I don't have my children, but I'm also not paying child support to an abductor.  
 
I have also been told that I may be arrested if I travel to Brazil and forced to sign papers giving away custody of my children to the abducting mother. Has anybody else heard of this?Yes.
 
In the meantime, I am not being allowed to contact my children and this fact is being used against me instead of against the abductor.
 According to Patricia Lamego, the head of the BCA, this looks very poor for the abducting parent. I'm not sure how this is happening.
 
And one other thing: The preliminary decision was reached on March 11, 2009, it was faxed to the BCA on March 19, 2009. After contacting the BCA, I was told by email about this decision on April 1, 2009. I immediately requested to see a copy of these documents and I was told they could not send me a copy of the preliminary decision. In the end, these documents were faxed to the USCA until April 24, 2009. The Court also wanted to get additional information within 30 days of March 11, 2009, that's April 11, 2009. Do you see a problem here?Get used to it.
 
It seems to me that the AGU and the Brazilian Court are working very fast, but that the BCA retained the petition for the return of my children for a very long time. What do you think?The AGU is very competent.
 
The last I heard from the BCA was in April 14 when they told me that: "In view of the high number of cases, and growing workload..." not to contact them again directly, only through the USCA. They are inconsistent on this. At times they will speak to me, at times they won't.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on April 30, 2009, 06:04:11 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;20226
Here is an update on the case. After almost a month of phone calls and emails, I finally got a copy of the petition filed by the AGU, and the preliminary court decision.
 
I am posting this info here not to complain about anything going on there, but to get your opinions and advice, to know if you have seen anything like this before, and if not, just to let you know how things work when you have a very solid Hague case.
 
What I understood from the papers is because I speak Spanish but not Portuguese. The initial petition written by the AGU was very well written, no complaints with that.
 
The Court decision appears to be in my favor completely in regards to the Hague case itself, but there appear to be some indications of a few problems.
 
The first problem is the issue of the dates. My children were abducted on March 20, 2007. The BCA received the complete request for the return of my children on July 13, 2007. The initial petition was filed on March 2, 2009. The question is: What happened during all this time? It took about 20 months to file a petition? The issue of the time that went by is being used against me...
 
The court finds that the children were illegaly removed from the USA, illegaly brought into Brazil, that I have legal custody of the children, and that the Brazilian custody orders may be null and void, although they want to first see the papers of the alleged Brazilian divorce done by Smadar.
 
The court decision says that because 2 years have already passed, they no longer have to return the children ... Article 12 is cited ...
 
They did request for all the children's passports to be confiscated so that Smadar does not move the children to another country.
 
The court decision also mentions Article 13 and that separating the children from their mother will cause psychological harm to the children...
 
I sent them a few questions and comments. I requested to talk to the AGU directly. In the past, I have been told that I cannot talk to the AGU because they are not representing me nor working for me.
 
From the beginning I have requested to the BCA and the USCA (US State Dept) that I want to communicate with my children. This issue is not even mentioned in the decision except for saying that since the children have been abducted for more than 2 years, it may not be in their best interest to be returned.
 
Also, the issue of child support is mentioned. I don't understand exactly if what they mean to say by that is that I have to pay child support for my abducted children?
 
I have been told in the past that if I travel to Brazil I will be arrested and put in jail until I agree to pay a large amount in child support. Has anybody else heard of this?
 
I have also been told that I may be arrested if I travel to Brazil and forced to sign papers giving away custody of my children to the abducting mother. Has anybody else heard of this?
 
In the meantime, I am not being allowed to contact my children and this fact is being used against me instead of against the abductor.
 
And all this despite the fact that I have by all accounts a "very strong" Hague case...
 
And one other thing: The preliminary decision was reached on March 11, 2009, it was faxed to the BCA on March 19, 2009. After contacting the BCA, I was told by email about this decision on April 1, 2009. I immediately requested to see a copy of these documents and I was told they could not send me a copy of the preliminary decision. In the end, these documents were faxed to the USCA until April 24, 2009. The Court also wanted to get additional information within 30 days of March 11, 2009, that's April 11, 2009. Do you see a problem here?
 
It seems to me that the AGU and the Brazilian Court are working very fast, but that the BCA retained the petition for the return of my children for a very long time. What do you think?
 
The last I heard from the BCA was in April 14 when they told me that: "In view of the high number of cases, and growing workload..." not to contact them again directly, only through the USCA.
 
As I said before I am not complaining about anything, just looking for your advice, opinions, and to let you know what happens during a very strong Hague case when the Brazilian Court had already accepted the fact that the abducting mother violated the laws of Brazil and the USA when she abducted the children to Brazil, and commited acts of fraud during the alleged Brazilian divorce, and does not have legal custody of the children...
 

This seems very odd. My advice is to have someone you can trust take the time to give you an accurate translation of both the filing and the "decision".
 
The odd part is all the reference to divorce, separation, custody and child support. To my knowledge these are family court issues not federal court. Are you sure that they weren't putting a stay on something the abductor had running in family court?
 
I'm also pretty sure the TP (abductor) can't divorce you in Brasil until two years has passed (maybe it has) ... and then only in Brasilia (that is if you were married in the US).
 
It also seems that if you were to go to Brasil, before you could be put in jail for failure to make child support you would at least need to be served and given some notice to appear. Certainly could be wrong on this ...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 17, 2009, 05:23:35 PM
I am still waiting for the translation, but some very interesting facts were determined by the Brazilian autorities:
 
1.- The children were wrongfully removed from Florida.
2.- The children were wrongfully taken into Brazil.
 
The explanation given is simply that Smadar Hameiry did not have her husband's permission or the permission of the Florida Court to take the children from Florida to Brazil.
 
Also, the Brazilian authorities have determined that:
 
3.- The Florida divorce and Florida custody orders are valid in Brazil.
4.- The Brazilian divorce and Brazilian custody orders, secretly obtained by Smadar Hameiry, were obtained fraudulently, illegally, and are null and void.
 
Despite the above, the Brazilian Court says that the children cannot be separated from their mother as this may cause psychological damage to the children, and also that I should be paying child support.
 
It should be noted that no one has ever said that they want to separate the children from their mother. The objective is to allow the children to communicate with their father in addition to their mother. Also, it's more than obvious that having the children abducted is bad for the children.
 
In short, I won my Hague case, but still, there is no sign that the Brazilian authorities will return my children. Also, the Brazilian authorities have refused in assisting me in communicating with my children over the phone or internet. And of course, have made it impossible for me to visit my children in Brazil.
 
Now what am I supposed to do?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 17, 2009, 05:42:12 PM
How can they tell you to pay child support to someone who has stolen your children?  And on top of that will not allow you to see or talk with them?  What does your divorce state in the US?  What type of custody do you have and is your ex Brazilian?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on May 17, 2009, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;21891
And of course, have made it impossible for me to visit my children in Brazil.

I don't understand. How do they make it impossible?
Aren't you still legally married? Why can't you go visit your
WIFE and CHILDREN?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on May 17, 2009, 06:17:24 PM
Never mind, I read your other post and now I understand.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 17, 2009, 06:32:02 PM
Quote from: gail;21893
How can they tell you to pay child support to someone who has stolen your children? And on top of that will not allow you to see or talk with them? What does your divorce state in the US? What type of custody do you have and is your ex Brazilian?

The final Florida divorce judgment, done on Sept 4, 2007, gives me "sole parental responsibility" for my children. This means I have full custody of my children.
 
The reasons given are that Smadar Hameiry abducted the children to Brazil, and also that she has prevented any communication between me and my children since the abduction.
 
My ex-wife, Smadar Hameiry, was born in Israel but has a Brazilian passport. We met in Israel, got married in Israel, and all our children were born in Israel. According to Brazilian law, under these conditions, she could have not done the divorce in Brazil. The proper jurisdiction for the divorce was Florida, because we moved to Florida and lived there 8 months before she abducted the children to Brazil.
 
So I won the legal Hague case, and have full legal custody of my children. Now what?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 17, 2009, 06:59:18 PM
Can you go get the children?  With the help of the Brazilian police?  This is crazy.  The Chabad are supporting her and want your money, that's about what it sounds like.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 17, 2009, 06:59:44 PM
What does your attorney say?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on May 18, 2009, 01:57:01 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;21891
I am still waiting for the translation, but some very interesting facts were determined by the Brazilian autorities:
 
1.- The children were wrongfully removed from Florida.
2.- The children were wrongfully taken into Brazil.
 
The explanation given is simply that Smadar Hameiry did not have her husband's permission or the permission of the Florida Court to take the children from Florida to Brazil.
 
Also, the Brazilian authorities have determined that:
 
3.- The Florida divorce and Florida custody orders are valid in Brazil.

Someone should explain to this court that returning your children to the United States does not equate to seperating them from their mother.  She can legally enter the US and dispute custody there and make that argument in Florida.  

4.- The Brazilian divorce and Brazilian custody orders, secretly obtained by Smadar Hameiry, were obtained fraudulently, illegally, and are null and void.
 
Despite the above, the Brazilian Court says that the children cannot be separated from their mother as this may cause psychological damage to the children, and also that I should be paying child support.

See Above
 
It should be noted that no one has ever said that they want to separate the children from their mother. The objective is to allow the children to communicate with their father in addition to their mother. Also, it's more than obvious that having the children abducted is bad for the children.
 
In short, I won my Hague case, but still, there is no sign that the Brazilian authorities will return my children. Also, the Brazilian authorities have refused in assisting me in communicating with my children over the phone or internet. And of course, have made it impossible for me to visit my children in Brazil.
 
Now what am I supposed to do?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: dmdaven2 on May 18, 2009, 07:49:53 AM
Well...I wouldn't consider myself "winning" the Hague unless my child was sitting there with me as i wrote the title of the thread "I won my Hague case"
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on May 18, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
Quote from: dmdaven2;21941
Well...I wouldn't consider myself "winning" the Hague unless my child was sitting there with me as i wrote the title of the thread "I won my Hague case"


:yeahthat:  

Even if you win in the supreme court of a country all that means is you now have the joy of trying to get the unappealable return order enforced... and I can cite several cases where the cases stalled indefinitely at that point.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 18, 2009, 11:50:15 AM
The Florida divorce and orders are valid and yet they are saying you should be paying child support?  Is this judge on drugs?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: dmdaven2 on May 18, 2009, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: gail;21963
The Florida divorce and orders are valid and yet they are saying you should be paying child support? Is this judge on drugs?

No he was born that way...there's something in the water down there in Brazil...:conf:
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on May 19, 2009, 10:52:10 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;21901
The final Florida divorce judgment, done on Sept 4, 2007, gives me "sole parental responsibility" for my children. This means I have full custody of my children.
 
The reasons given are that Smadar Hameiry abducted the children to Brazil, and also that she has prevented any communication between me and my children since the abduction.
 
My ex-wife, Smadar Hameiry, was born in Israel but has a Brazilian passport. We met in Israel, got married in Israel, and all our children were born in Israel. According to Brazilian law, under these conditions, she could have not done the divorce in Brazil. The proper jurisdiction for the divorce was Florida, because we moved to Florida and lived there 8 months before she abducted the children to Brazil.
 
So I won the legal Hague case, and have full legal custody of my children. Now what?

This is odd on so many levels. You really need to have this document translated by someone for whom Portuguese is their first language (not me).  What strikes me is all the family issues purported to being dealt with in Federal Court.

1) Is your wife a legal US resident or citizen? If not, then that may be a reason the Federal Court is digging their heels in. You said you were in Florida only 8 months when she left ... is she able to legally return. That's a big deal. The State might be able to help you with that if that is the reason the Federal Court is objecting. In other words, if they return your children, can the mother (taking parent) follow or are they in effect taking the children away from the mother?

2) Have you pressed to have her charged with a felony in the US? Brazilian Federal Courts are unlikely to return if the TP is facing felony charges in habitual residence. Not right, just a fact (at least concerning Brasil).

3) Federal Courts are unlikely to discuss your visitation with your children while in Brazil. My impression is that it is not their job but a job for family courts. At you Attorney's request, they may try to persuade your wife (TP) to allow you access, but nothing official. If she doesn't comply it looks bad for her, though. I'm speaking as if you were there in Brasil for a deposition and/or hearing ... as you were not it does not surprise me that they did not cover this topic as it does not seem to be what is before them (which is: jurisdictional return or not). I am not sure what vehicle or court David used to get access to Sean, recently.

4) In these cases, there is usually a Public Prosecutor (might have the translation wrong here) who advises the Judge and gives opinion representing the child(ren). In effect, he/ she is the Attorney for the child and adviser to the judge. In other words you have a Judge, a TP Attorney, the LBP's Attorney (AGU in your case, I believe) and this Public Prosecutor that represents your children's interest to the Judge. Might what you have be his/ her opinion (formal, written) to the Judge for the Judge to consider ahead of making a ruling/ decision?

5) I find it odd that they automatically assume that US judgments have validity in Brasil without going through a validation process there. All previous information I had known about required a step of validation before US judgments would be recognized in Brasil. Did the TP get legally divorced in Brasil or just document your separation? I thought she would need to wait 2 years before starting divorce proceedings (there) and then only in Brasilia. If you initiated divorce before that time and had the divorce recognized in Brazil through mirrored documents it could happen faster than 2 years. Which leads me to another question. Is your marriage certificate mirrored and children's birth certificates mirrored in Brasil? How is she able to do anything with regard to separation/ custody in family court without those? Really, she shouldn't be allowed at all or it should at least be stayed until the end of the Hague proceedings in Federal Court.

I don't know your situation but it seems very confusing. All this family related stuff: custody, child support, divorce. You really need to have any and all documents translated by someone you can trust. Once translated you should have the same or another here (again, that you trust) tell you what might be going on from a procedural standpoint. The State Dept (OCI) should be able to tell you what is going on but often times the BCA does not answer their phone calls, either. The BCA/ AGU demands that all documents coming to them be translated to Portuguese; do they do the same in return? In other words, the BCA/ AGU demands that all documents being supplied them by the DoS-OCI be translated to Portuguese; when there are decisions to be communicated back to DoS-OCI and LBPs do the translate them to English? My guess is no ... and if so, it probably takes 3 years ...

Perplexing ...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 19, 2009, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: dmdaven2;21941
Well...I wouldn't consider myself "winning" the Hague unless my child was sitting there with me as i wrote the title of the thread "I won my Hague case"

Well, legally speaking, I won the Hague case. The problem now is to get the Brazilian Court to order the return of the children, and then to get them to enforce that order.
 
At the very beginning, when I was looking for a Brazilian lawyer, I was told when quoted a price, that if they won the case they wanted a $20,000 USD bonus.
 
I asked them if by winning the case they mean getting the children out of Brazil, and they responded that NO. Winning the case means just that, winning the case in Court. But getting the children out of Brazil after winning the case, that's another story. And they even told me they don't think I would be able to get them out, but at least I would win the case.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 19, 2009, 12:55:45 PM
Someone should explain to this court that returning your children to the United States does not equate to seperating them from their mother. She can legally enter the US and dispute custody there and make that argument in Florida.
 
I have already sent this information to Brazil. According to all the Florida divorce attorneys I have spoken to, if Smadar Hameiry comes back to Florida with the children, the Florida Court will never separate the children from their mother.
 
If she fights for custody in Florida Court she would get anywhere between 2 to 5 days in the week with the children. That is, the worst case scenario would be 2 days in the week, the best case scenario would be 5 days in the week.
 
Nevertheless, the Rabbis I have consulted with have advised me that the best thing will be to agree with her that she has the children 5 days a week and me only 2 days a week. The Rabbis have told me that it will be best for everyone if she gets 5 days and I get 2 days a week on average with the children.
 
I have also provided this information to the Brazilian authorities, and have even made a proposal to Smadar Hameiry through the Brazilian authorities asking her if she would agree to having the children 5 days and me only 2 days in Florida, and in addition I would pay child support as established by the Florida Court.
 
Another advice given by the Rabbis is that if Smadar Hameiry wants to return with the children to Israel, that will also be acceptable, and that I should agree with her on visiting the children in Israel. In this case, I would pay child support as established by the Israeli Court.
 
In both of the above options, whether the children are in Florida or Israel, I will have to pay her child support. She will only have to agree to let me have contact with my children. The proposal has been made, and I am now waiting for a response from Smadar Hameiry through the Brazilian authorities.
 
Nobody wants to take the children away from their mother. The objective is to allow the children to communicate with their father IN ADDITION to being with their mother.
 
The Rabbis have also stated that it's very important to get the children away from Chabad, and to put them in a normal Jewish school. And the only way to achieve this is to get them out of Brazil, where Smadar Hameiry has now become dependent on Chabad in order to continue with this abduction, as she doesn't have any money to pay for school tuition in a normal Jewish school, and Chabad is letting her have the children in a Chabad school for FREE, so they can "educate" the children "the Chabad way".
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 19, 2009, 12:57:50 PM
A bonus?  Our Country needs to step up and see that your children are brought home.  There is no excuse for this.  Why even spend the money and go to court the "win", if they won't send them home.  Maybe somebody should look into going after Brazil, the Country, with an attorney.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on May 19, 2009, 01:19:59 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22059
Another advice given by the Rabbis is that if Smadar Hameiry wants to return with the children to Israel, that will also be acceptable, and that I should agree with her on visiting the children in Israel.
I'd be careful with this one. Last time I checked, Israel wasn't fully compliant. Read pages 31-32 of this report:

http://travel.state.gov/pdf/2008HagueAbductionConventionComplianceReport.pdf
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 19, 2009, 03:08:49 PM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22048
This is odd on so many levels. You really need to have this document translated by someone for whom Portuguese is their first language (not me). What strikes me is all the family issues purported to being dealt with in Federal Court.

The first document was already translated and the second is now in the process of being translated. Several Brazilians that I know in Florida have also read these documents and have given me their opinions. They say that, while they are not lawyers, the Court decision makes no sense. It looks like a custody hearing more than a hearing of an application for the return of the children. They say the document is very unfair and unbalanced, and ignores the fact that abducting the children to Brazil and not allowing them to communicate with their father is causing great psychological and emotional trauma to the children. The document also says this is not really an emergency situation. And it recommends continuing with the present situation as it is now. Someone said it has some connotations of anti-Americanism because it says that the US family Courts cannot be trusted and that sending the children back to the USA is a decision that cannot be reversed. In short, it appears that the Brazilian Court has no intention whatsoever in returning the children to the USA. Nevertheless, it has ordered the confiscation of the children's passports in order to prevent the mother from taking them to a different country without the Court's permission. It was also noted that it took 20 months from the time the application was received from the Brazilian authorities until the case was filed. They said that in Brazil a 6 month interval would have been considered normal, but 20 months seems excesive.
 
 
The U.S. Department of State 2008 Report on Compliance with the Hague Convention explains the problem:
 
"Brazil continued to demonstrate patterns of noncompliance with the Convention in its judicial performance. The USCA notes several instances during FY 2007 in which Brazilian courts treated Convention cases as custody decisions, rather than applying the principles of wrongful removal or retention laid out in the Convention. In two cases, Brazilian judges refused returns to the United States, citing the "best interests of the child."
 
These decisions contradict the Convention, as the Preamble of the Convention declares that the interest of children is attained through their return to their country of habitual residence. In addition, the USCA notes that judges in some cases continued to demonstrate a bias towards mothers and towards Brazilian citizens. Further, the judicial process is excessively lengthy, with cases going on well beyond the six weeks mandated by the Convention."
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 19, 2009, 04:04:25 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;22063
I'd be careful with this one. Last time I checked, Israel wasn't fully compliant. Read pages 31-32 of this report:
 
http://travel.state.gov/pdf/2008HagueAbductionConventionComplianceReport.pdf

The proposal from the Rabbis to agree with Smadar Hameiry to move with the children to Israel have many reasons. First of all, the Rabbis say that the children were abducted by Chabad. They feel, based on the facts, that Chabad is manipulating Smadar Hameiry. The Rabbis say that the first priority is to remove the children from the Chabad school in Brazil and put them in a normal Jewish school, either in Israel or Florida.
 
Today in Brazil, Smadar Hameiry has become dependent on Chabad to continue with this abduction. She cannot afford to pay school tuition so Chabad has offered her FREE tuition for the children. Chabad has also hired a child psychologist to assist Smadar Hameiry in alienating the children from their father. The stated objective of Chabad is that the children never see their father again.
 
By moving to Israel, Smadar Hameiry will not depend on Chabad anymore as in Israel the schools are free. Also health insurance is free. The economic situation of the children will be better. They will get a better education. And they will live much better in Israel than in Brazil. The Rabbis also want to end this abduction situation.
 
Also, if the children are in Israel, I can go and visit them. But even if she still behaves crazy and still refuses to let me see the children in Israel, there are many people in Israel who know me and who will probably try to convince her to let me see the children.
 
And even if she still refuses to let me see the children, the Rabbis have told me that if the children are in Israel, they are not abducted. In other words, instead of being considered an abduction, this will only be considered another case of thousands of cases of crazy women who don't allow their ex-husband to talk to their children (welcome to the club!). But it will not be an abduction. And frankly, I agree with the Rabbis, it's better to have the children in Israel than in Brazil, and to keep the children away from Chabad.
 
Also, the Rabbis have told me that if the children are in Israel or Florida they will be most of the time with their mother and I will have to pay child support. But if the children are in Brazil, the Rabbis have told me to not send her any money, and also, to not go to Brazil.
 
Do you see any problems with this advice? I think it makes sense.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 19, 2009, 04:45:00 PM
Is she having an affair with somebody from Chabad in Brazil?  Why would they be paying all of her bills?  Just to keep the children in there school for free?  This all sounds so crazy.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on May 19, 2009, 06:30:39 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22080
The Rabbis say that the first priority is to remove the children from the Chabad school in Brazil and put them in a normal Jewish school, either in Israel or Florida.
This sounds like good advice.
 
 
Quote
By moving to Israel, Smadar Hameiry will not depend on Chabad anymore as in Israel the schools are free. Also health insurance is free. The economic situation of the children will be better. They will get a better education. And they will live much better in Israel than in Brazil. The Rabbis also want to end this abduction situation.
It's a toss-up for me. I agree that it is good to get them away from Chabad, but I'm afraid of a few things:
1. With the ongoing Palestinian/Israeli conflict, I'm concerned about safety. (I understand the argument for Zionism)
2. I think you want your children classified as abducted. It gives you more legal standing.
 
Quote
Also, if the children are in Israel, I can go and visit them. But even if she still behaves crazy and still refuses to let me see the children in Israel, there are many people in Israel who know me and who will probably try to convince her to let me see the children.
Are you saying that you would be satisfied with visitation in another country and not participating in your children's lives on a daily basis?
 
Quote
Also, the Rabbis have told me that if the children are in Israel or Florida they will be most of the time with their mother and I will have to pay child support. But if the children are in Brazil, the Rabbis have told me to not send her any money, and also, to not go to Brazil.
 
Do you see any problems with this advice? I think it makes sense.
I agree with the advice about child support. However, under Article 16 of the Hague Convention, you are entitled to file for the local courts to stay any motions pending the outcome of the federal case.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on May 19, 2009, 07:08:12 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22080
The proposal from the Rabbis to agree with Smadar Hameiry to move with the children to Israel have many reasons. First of all, the Rabbis say that the children were abducted by Chabad. They feel, based on the facts, that Chabad is manipulating Smadar Hameiry. The Rabbis say that the first priority is to remove the children from the Chabad school in Brazil and put them in a normal Jewish school, either in Israel or Florida.
 
Today in Brazil, Smadar Hameiry has become dependent on Chabad to continue with this abduction. She cannot afford to pay school tuition so Chabad has offered her FREE tuition for the children. Chabad has also hired a child psychologist to assist Smadar Hameiry in alienating the children from their father. The stated objective of Chabad is that the children never see their father again.
 
By moving to Israel, Smadar Hameiry will not depend on Chabad anymore as in Israel the schools are free. Also health insurance is free. The economic situation of the children will be better. They will get a better education. And they will live much better in Israel than in Brazil. The Rabbis also want to end this abduction situation.
 
Also, if the children are in Israel, I can go and visit them. But even if she still behaves crazy and still refuses to let me see the children in Israel, there are many people in Israel who know me and who will probably try to convince her to let me see the children.
 
And even if she still refuses to let me see the children, the Rabbis have told me that if the children are in Israel, they are not abducted. In other words, instead of being considered an abduction, this will only be considered another case of thousands of cases of crazy women who don't allow their ex-husband to talk to their children (welcome to the club!). But it will not be an abduction. And frankly, I agree with the Rabbis, it's better to have the children in Israel than in Brazil, and to keep the children away from Chabad.
 
Also, the Rabbis have told me that if the children are in Israel or Florida they will be most of the time with their mother and I will have to pay child support. But if the children are in Brazil, the Rabbis have told me to not send her any money, and also, to not go to Brazil.
 
Do you see any problems with this advice? I think it makes sense.

I am sorry for the lack of information you are being provided. It is one example (of many) of the turmoil that a LBP endures.
 
My opinion, for what it is worth:
 
Based upon what you have reported, I think you do not have a final decision from the Federal Court, I think you have a preliminary decision.
 
My guess (again, based upon what you have said and some background knowledge) is:
 
1) That the AGU boldly asked the Judge for the children's immediate return to their "habitual residence" based upon the information provided in the application.
 
2) The Judge agreed that it seems that the children were "wrongfully removed" but that everyone had enough time to hear from the TP as to her "rationale" for the abduction. Sieze all documents, order her not to relocate, order her to respond to civil allegations made by "Brazil" vs Her within a defined length of time ... effectively "serving" her.
 
Next steps are that she (through her Attorney) responds to the allegations Brazil/ AGU/ OCI/ you have made against her. This is where she makes slanderous remarks about you or "grave risk" arguements to which the AGU will file a response (they may need to talk to you at this point). After that, probably a hearing and depositions for which you may need to prepare yourself (financially and emotionally) to travel to Brazil. Final decision somewhere thereafter ...
 
Just a guess, take it for what it's worth ...
 
I think it is too soon to be discussing mediation with the TP. If she were inclined to voluntarily return, she would have already. Her heels are dug in and she does not fear a return. At this point the Courts would have to turn the children's documents over to you or her for the purpose of a voluntary return in the case she had a change of heart.
 
Brazilian Federal Courts will not/ can not send the children to Israel; their "habitual residence" is Florida. This is not a custody battle it is a jurisdictional return (hopefully). Florida Family Courts have jurisdiction over separation/ custody/ divorce. They have ruled. If/ when she returns she can dispute that judgment but I would think the Florida Courts might consider limiting her access to some sort of supervised visitation (court or otherwise) for fear of re-abduction. I would think they have some liability, but I may be living in some fantasy land. I would weigh the advice you are getting very carefully. In fact, I think you are fortunate that the "habitual residence" is Florida and not Israel because the Federal Courts may have determined it "grave risk" to return the children to a war-torn country.
 
Is she a permanent resident or US Citizen? Does she have the right to return/ follow?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 19, 2009, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;22089
It's a toss-up for me. I agree that it is good to get them away from Chabad, but I'm afraid of a few things:
1. With the ongoing Palestinian/Israeli conflict, I'm concerned about safety. (I understand the argument for Zionism)

I lived in Israel many years and I can tell you that Israel is very safe (despite what you see on TV), and it's the best place for Jewish children to be.
 
Quote from: tweinstein;22089
2. I think you want your children classified as abducted. It gives you more legal standing.

Well, I prefer that my children will no longer be abducted so I can see them. Besides, what Smadar Hameiry has done, has been done. She abducted the children, and this can never be erased. Now we need to concentrate on recovering them.
 
Quote from: tweinstein;22089
Are you saying that you would be satisfied with visitation in another country and not participating in your children's lives on a daily basis?

 
No. Of course I would prefer to see my children everyday, and participate in their lives. But if I have to chose between NEVER seeing them and seeing them only a few days a week, a few days a month, maybe even just a few days a year, I would rather see them just a few days a year, than NEVER seeing them at all.
 
A tragic situation has been created by a crazy woman, a lawless country, and a godless religious cult named Chabad, where either I take the offer of seeing my children a few days a year or nothing. And on top of it, I will have to pay her money to see my children a few days a year.
 
Which reminds me of another Rabbinical advice: "Next time you get married, try to get married to a woman who is not crazy."
 
Quote from: tweinstein;22089
I agree with the advice about child support. However, under Article 16 of the Hague Convention, you are entitled to file for the local courts to stay any motions pending the outcome of the federal case.

The AGU requested that in their motion. But the Brazilian Court apparently did not do it. Instead it asked to send information about this proceeding to the local court in Aruja handling the divorce and to inform them of this proceeding, and requested the full file of the divorce proceedings to examine what has been done there. I do not know what orders have been issued by the Aruja Court in regards to the Brazilian divorce, which in any case was done illegally and fraudulently.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on May 19, 2009, 07:54:46 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22103
Which reminds me of another Rabbinical advice: "Next time you get married, try to get married to a woman who is not crazy."
It's too bad I didn't get this advice from the rabbi who married me.:nixweiss:
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 19, 2009, 09:04:41 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;22104
It's too bad I didn't get this advice from the rabbi who married me.:nixweiss:
LOL
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 19, 2009, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22099
Based upon what you have reported, I think you do not have a final decision from the Federal Court, I think you have a preliminary decision.

Yes, this is a preliminary decision.
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22099
My guess (again, based upon what you have said and some background knowledge) is:
 
1) That the AGU boldly asked the Judge for the children's immediate return to their "habitual residence" based upon the information provided in the application.
 
2) The Judge agreed that it seems that the children were "wrongfully removed" but that everyone had enough time to hear from the TP as to her "rationale" for the abduction. Sieze all documents, order her not to relocate, order her to respond to civil allegations made by "Brazil" vs Her within a defined length of time ... effectively "serving" her.

This appears to be what is happening. There also appears to have been an investigation prior to the initial filing.
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22099
Next steps are that she (through her Attorney) responds to the allegations Brazil/ AGU/ OCI/ you have made against her. This is where she makes slanderous remarks about you or "grave risk" arguements to which the AGU will file a response (they may need to talk to you at this point). After that, probably a hearing and depositions for which you may need to prepare yourself (financially and emotionally) to travel to Brazil. Final decision somewhere thereafter ...
Just a guess, take it for what it's worth ...

If this is correct, then this appears to be the start of a very long and completly needless legal process, because it's already very obvious from the information gathered, that the children should have been immediately returned.
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22099
I think it is too soon to be discussing mediation with the TP. If she were inclined to voluntarily return, she would have already. Her heels are dug in and she does not fear a return. At this point the Courts would have to turn the children's documents over to you or her for the purpose of a voluntary return in the case she had a change of heart.

She might be afraid that if she returns the children she could get arrested or that the children would be taken away from her. This is one of the reasons that the proposals were made, to make it clear to her that the children will not be taken away from her, and that she will not get arrested.
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22099
Brazilian Federal Courts will not/ can not send the children to Israel; their "habitual residence" is Florida. This is not a custody battle it is a jurisdictional return (hopefully). Florida Family Courts have jurisdiction over separation/ custody/ divorce. They have ruled. If/ when she returns she can dispute that judgment but I would think the Florida Courts might consider limiting her access to some sort of supervised visitation (court or otherwise) for fear of re-abduction. I would think they have some liability, but I may be living in some fantasy land. I would weigh the advice you are getting very carefully. In fact, I think you are fortunate that the "habitual residence" is Florida and not Israel because the Federal Courts may have determined it "grave risk" to return the children to a war-torn country.

Yes, if Brazil would honor its obligations under the Hague Convention, and would return the children, she would probably get supervised access initially in order to prevent a re-abduction. Nevertheless, Brazil has no intention whatsoever in returning the children. Therefore, the proposals have been made, and if Smadar Hameiry decides to return the children, not only will she have them most of the time, but it will also cost me a lot of money, so I can see them at least 2 days a week, which is much better than never seeing them again.
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22099
Is she a permanent resident or US Citizen? Does she have the right to return/ follow?

Smadar Hameiry has the right to return and follow the children to the USA. At this point in time, neither the Police nor the FBI have filed criminal charges against her precisely for not giving an excuse to the Brazilian authorities to not return the children. If she decides to return the children, or if Brazil returns the children, then the custody fight, if any, will be at the Florida Family Court. But if Smadar Hameiry decides not to return the children and Brazil does not return the children, then this may cause the FBI and Police to file criminal charges against her.
 
It's interesting to note that shortly after the FBI got involved in the case I was contacted by someone from Chabad who told me they wanted to help me. During the meeting we had they wanted to know what was the FBI asking me about. They also told me that if the FBI or the Police would file criminal charges against Smadar Hameiry, Chabad would stop assisting her in Brazil. It's interesting that Chabad was trying to convince me to tell law enforcement to file criminal charges against Smadar Hameiry. This doesn't sound like Chabad cares much about Smadar Hameiry.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 20, 2009, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22118
Yes, this is a preliminary decision.

Adding to my previous post, being this a preliminary decision, it seems that Brazil has no intention of returning my children. I think it would be a real miracle if Brazil would even order the return of my children. The simple fact that it has taken so long to do even the preliminary decision, when the Hague Convention mentions a 6-week time period, defeats the purposes of the Hague Convention.
 
From the legal point of view, I feel I have won the Hague case. The facts mentioned cannot be changed. For example, the fact that the children were removed illegaly from Florida and taken illegaly into Brazil because Smadar Hameiry did not have my permission nor the permission of the Florida Court is something that cannot be changed.
 
Also, the fact that the divorce and custody was done properly and legally in Florida, and that Smadar Hameiry did it illegaly and fraudulently in Brazil can also not be changed.
 
Smadar Hameiry will never be able to say that she won the Hague case. When she abducted the children to Brazil, she commited several crimes according to the laws of Brazil, Florida, and the USA. She is also causing severe psychological harm to her own children.
 
The only reason that the children have not been returned is because Brazil does not return abducted children. It's that simple.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on May 20, 2009, 10:29:27 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22146
Adding to my previous post, being this a preliminary decision, it seems that Brazil has no intention of returning my children. I think it would be a real miracle if Brazil would even order the return of my children. The simple fact that it has taken so long to do even the preliminary decision, when the Hague Convention mentions a 6-week time period, defeats the purposes of the Hague Convention.
 
From the legal point of view, I feel I have won the Hague case. The facts mentioned cannot be changed. For example, the fact that the children were removed illegaly from Florida and taken illegaly into Brazil because Smadar Hameiry did not have my permission nor the permission of the Florida Court is something that cannot be changed.
 
Also, the fact that the divorce and custody was done properly and legally in Florida, and that Smadar Hameiry did it illegaly and fraudulently in Brazil can also not be changed.
 
Smadar Hameiry will never be able to say that she won the Hague case. When she abducted the children to Brazil, she commited several crimes according to the laws of Brazil, Florida, and the USA. She is also causing severe psychological harm to her own children.
 
The only reason that the children have not been returned is because Brazil does not return abducted children. It's that simple.

a preliminary decision ordering the return seems to me is very unlilkey to happen, and if it happened, it doesnīt fit with your affirmative "Brasil has no intention of returning...".
 
One of the requirements for a preliminary decision is the possibility of the decision can be reversible, and sending the children to another country when both parents are fighting against each other, it doesnīt not seem to me like a situation where the preliminary decision can be reversed. In other words, if the judge gave you a favourable preliminary decision is because he wants your child/children back to your arms.
 
In Brasil, each judges have thousands of proceedings to deal with, so itīs almost inevitable HC proceedings will take more than six weeks to be analysed, and itīs doesnīt necessarily means "Brasil" doesnt want to return abducted children just because more than six weeks have passed.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on May 20, 2009, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;22155
a preliminary decision ordering the return seems to me is very unlilkey to happen, and if it happened, it doesnīt fit with your affirmative "Brasil has no intention of returning...".
 
One of the requirements for a preliminary decision is the possibility of the decision can be reversible, and sending the children to another country when both parents are fighting against each other, it doesnīt not seem to me like a situation where the preliminary decision can be reversed. In other words, if the judge gave you a favourable preliminary decision is because he wants your child/children back to your arms.
 
In Brasil, each judges have thousands of proceedings to deal with, so itīs almost inevitable HC proceedings will take more than six weeks to be analysed, and itīs doesnīt necessarily means "Brasil" doesnt want to return abducted children just because more than six weeks have passed.

hatufim.org

I agree with Andre, what the AGU asked for (that I referred to as bold) was extremely unlikely to have been indicated. What the Judge did was very typical (agree "wrongful removal", serve TP, sieze all (Brazilian, US & Israeli Passports, abductor and children) documents, order not to relocate, order to respond w/in (x) days). From what you have told us about dates, I would not be at all surprised if this has already happened; her Attorney has probably submitted her response to Brazil/ BCA/ AGU civil charges against her. According to me, you need to be burning-up the phone lines to DoS-OCI and pressuring them daily to get you the information out of the BCA/ AGU. They (OCI/ BCA/ AGU) are overworked and understaffed; be polite and persistent ... squeaky wheel gets the grease and their is no policy against what you are asking; you'd be asking them to do their job.

Don't give up! I've been bashed a bit about being hopeful but it won't work. I think you stand a better chance in Sao Paulo Federal Court than Rio; should not be but may be.

Emotionally, expect some false allegations from the TP. Financially and emotionally, budget for a trip to Brazil.

It is early in the process at the first level of Federal Court. Too early to give up hope, way too early to mediate w/ TP ... and besides the Courts have the passports now. When I said she did not fear a return I did not mean she did not fear what would happen if she were returned; what I meant is she thinks Brazil is a safe haven for her and her ilk. If this unfolds as I described above, during the hearing/ deposition stage they quite possibly will ask your respective Attorneys to conduct a mediation ahead of the Court ruling. I think initiating mediation now weakens your position and she does not feel threatened at this point to negotiate. My opinion ...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on May 20, 2009, 12:02:22 PM
I didnīt read the previous post, so, the judge didnīt (preliminay) ordered the return of the children, according to brazilian law, there is no problem with that, as this preliminary order has very little chances to be reversed. Would be fair without the slowness of the court...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 21, 2009, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22157

I agree with Andre, what the AGU asked for (that I referred to as bold) was extremely unlikely to have been indicated. What the Judge did was very typical (agree "wrongful removal", serve TP, sieze all (Brazilian, US & Israeli Passports, abductor and children) documents, order not to relocate, order to respond w/in (x) days). From what you have told us about dates, I would not be at all surprised if this has already happened; her Attorney has probably submitted her response to Brazil/ BCA/ AGU civil charges against her. According to me, you need to be burning-up the phone lines to DoS-OCI and pressuring them daily to get you the information out of the BCA/ AGU. They (OCI/ BCA/ AGU) are overworked and understaffed; be polite and persistent ... squeaky wheel gets the grease and their is no policy against what you are asking; you'd be asking them to do their job.
 
Don't give up! I've been bashed a bit about being hopeful but it won't work. I think you stand a better chance in Sao Paulo Federal Court than Rio; should not be but may be.

It's extremely hard to talk to the DOS-OCI and the BCA-AGU don't want to talk to me. It took me about a month to get these 2 documents, the BCA initially told me they could not send me the preliminary decision. They do not want to send any other documents or tell me what is going on with the case. Is this a way to conduct a fair trial?
 
For more than a year the DOS-OCI had me under the belief that there was no ongoing Hague process, and that the BCA had rejected my application. One day I sent an email to the BCA just to check if there was anything going on, and they responded by saying that a preliminary decision had been issued and the passports had been taken. Everybody in the USA was completely surprised with that response, starting with the DOS-OCI who had no idea there was a process going on in regards to my children's case. From what I know, the DOS-OCI had already classified this case as non-compliance by Brazil. And then it took about a month to get these 2 documents, which the BCA initially did not want to send. Is this a way to conduct a fair Hague process?
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22157
Emotionally, expect some false allegations from the TP. Financially and emotionally, budget for a trip to Brazil.

Smadar Hameiry has already stated in all previous documents that the reason she left is because her tourist visa had expired. This allegation has already been proven to be false simply by showing the relevant immigration documents.
 
About the trip to Brazil, I have been told by many people that I cannot go to Brazil for any reason until the Federal Court has issued a final judgment ordering the return of the children and stating that I can travel to Brazil and pick them up. Many people have told me that if I go to Brazil before this happens, that I could be arrested and forced to pay child support for my abducted children and sign over custody to my ex-wife. What is your opinion about this?
 
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22157
It is early in the process at the first level of Federal Court. Too early to give up hope, way too early to mediate w/ TP ... and besides the Courts have the passports now. When I said she did not fear a return I did not mean she did not fear what would happen if she were returned; what I meant is she thinks Brazil is a safe haven for her and her ilk. If this unfolds as I described above, during the hearing/ deposition stage they quite possibly will ask your respective Attorneys to conduct a mediation ahead of the Court ruling. I think initiating mediation now weakens your position and she does not feel threatened at this point to negotiate. My opinion ...

The children were abducted on March 20, 2007, more than 2 years ago. At this rate, when will the process be completed, after 6 years? At that point in time the children will have already been so brainwashed that they will probably not want to come back. And if they come back, I'm not so sure they will be able to readjust. This is precisely why the Hague Convention gives the 6-weeks timeframe, to avoid this type of psychological problems.
 
The reason why I made this proposals is to try to expedite the return of the children by convincing Smadar Hameiry that it's in her best interest to return the children. The offer I made is the best offer a woman could get in Florida in a standard divorce, that is, a divorce where a woman did not abduct her children to Brazil and prevented them to communicate with their father for more than 2 years. In Florida she will have the children most of the time, and I will also pay her money. This solution appears to be really bad for me, but I want to see my children, and more importantly, I want my children to be able to see their father and to know that their father loves them very much.
 
As I said before, based on what I have read in the preliminary decision, and based on how this process has been conducted so far, I do not believe that Brazil has any intention of returning my children, more specifically, the BCA and the Court handling this case, have no intention of returning my children. It is also my impression that the DOS-OCI considers that the chances of obtaining the return of my children is ZERO. So much so, that they had already classified this case as non-compliance by Brazil. I think it would be a really big surprise and miracle if the Court orders the return of my children.
 
Another issue is that if Smadar Hameiry starts to believe that Brazil may order the return of the children, she can just go and hide in a different Brazilian city, and then no one will find her. Can the AGU request that a psychological evaluation be conducted on Smadar Hameiry?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on May 21, 2009, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;22155
a preliminary decision ordering the return seems to me is very unlilkey to happen, and if it happened, it doesnīt fit with your affirmative "Brasil has no intention of returning...".
 
One of the requirements for a preliminary decision is the possibility of the decision can be reversible, and sending the children to another country when both parents are fighting against each other, it doesnīt not seem to me like a situation where the preliminary decision can be reversed. In other words, if the judge gave you a favourable preliminary decision is because he wants your child/children back to your arms.
 
In Brasil, each judges have thousands of proceedings to deal with, so itīs almost inevitable HC proceedings will take more than six weeks to be analysed, and itīs doesnīt necessarily means "Brasil" doesnt want to return abducted children just because more than six weeks have passed.

I agree with you that just because more than 6-weeks have passed it's no indication that Brazil does not want to return my children. But as mentioned in my previous post, there are many other reasons that have lead me to believe that the BCA and the Court handling this case will not return my children.
 
I have discussed this documents with people from Brazil that I know in Florida, and while they are not lawyers, they have said that a 6 month delay to issue this decision would have been normal in Brazil, but it took 20 months from the time the BCA received the application to the time the initial motion was filed by the AGU. They believe that 20-months is an excesive delay. Is 20-months a normal delay? And then, in the preliminary decision, the Court points out that the children have already been in Brazil for 2 years, and that this may be a reason for not returning them. Also, from what is written in the preliminary decision, they feel the Court is not going to order the return of the children. The Court has aknowledged the facts, but they are now giving all types of psychological explanations and have stated that they are not obligated to return the children under the Hague Convention, saying that the best interest of the children is the purpose of this Hague Convention. So now they will probably want to decide if it's in the best interest of the children to stay in Brazil or to be returned.
 
I could also add that based on what has been happening with the case of Sean Goldman, and what I have read about all the other cases mentioned in this forum, it leads me to believe that Brazil has no intention of returning my children. Therefore, I have offered these proposals to Smadar Hameiry in order to obtain the return of my children. You can call it paying ransom or just accepting the facts of life, but if I do not make this offer, I do not know if I will ever see my children again.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 21, 2009, 12:24:20 PM
Something needs to be changed.  Brazil needs a speicial judiciary branch to handle Hague only cases so they can be done in the 6 weeks time frame.  To keep a parent waiting for 20 months is torture and then because of their slowness to keep the children is even worse.  Something needs to change.  I know if the shoes were reversed, Brazil would be having a fit.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: ENR on May 21, 2009, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: gail;22335
Something needs to be changed.  Brazil needs a speicial judiciary branch to handle Hague only cases so they can be done in the 6 weeks time frame.  To keep a parent waiting for 20 months is torture and then because of their slowness to keep the children is even worse.  Something needs to change.  I know if the shoes were reversed, Brazil would be having a fit.


Yes, I agree, a separate Judiciary with judges trained specifically to rule on these cases in a timely matter so that these cases don't get dragged out and become what they are today.  All the mental torture is completely unnecessary and if the Hague was just followed the way it is designed to be then all this heart ache and mental anguish would be avoided.  Yes, big changes need to happen.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on May 21, 2009, 02:54:15 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22331
They believe that 20-months is an excesive delay. Is 20-months a normal delay?
In my case, it took 9 months for the AGU to initiate proceedings and another 8 for the case to be heard. It has now been 14 months without a ruling.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: ENR on May 21, 2009, 03:10:28 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;22355
In my case, it took 9 months for the AGU to initiate proceedings and another 8 for the case to be heard. It has now been 14 months without a ruling.


This is just so wrong.  As more of these cases come to light and really make the government seem inadequate in handling these kinds of cases hopefully, something will change and these cases will begin to be resolved at a faster pace as even sighted as should happen in the Hague Convention.  I just hope and pray that things begin to change for the better as I can only imagine all the pain and agony these long delays bring to all LBPs.  I think BSHF is beginning to clue in the government that they have seriously dropped the ball and it is time to step up.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on May 21, 2009, 04:04:57 PM
Even if it is hard dealing with the DoS-OCI, you need to persevere. Build up your emotional resistance each day for the call and 'just do it'. It is a necessary evil to get your children home. Try to be nice. They are doing a job and do not have the passion that you have ... but their job is to provide you this information. Their job is to shake the information out of the BCA/ AGU.
 
If there is documented information that the TP can follow the children back in the case of a return this needs to be clear in the AGU's filing(s).
 
You asked for my opinion. My opinion is that if the Judge wants you at a hearing and/ or to be deposed ... you should go. The AGU should be able to stay any family court orders that are in place or that might arise.
 
Alot of people think that David & Sean's case will not greatly help other left-behind parents because Bruna is dead and therefore anomolous. I would like to think that this whole mess could have been avoided if the Court had done the just thing 4 1/2 years ago ... and that going forward that Brazil can avoid future embarrassment by making responsible judgements.
 
The BCA/ AGU did you wrong. 20 months is at least twice as long as anything else I have heard. They are your Attorney (not actually your Attorney but work with me). The Brazilian Federal Court has not done you wrong, yet. Their response to the AGU's filing was typical. All they said was "wait, let's hear the taking parents side to make sure there is aren't any grave risk concerns". Effectively, they agreed in part to the AGU's assertion that:
 
1) Florida is the "habitual residence"
 
2) That you were asseting your custody rights when the children were wrongfully rmoved.
 
Be angry with the DoS-OCI, but continue to badger them and be professional.
 
Be angry with the AGU for taking so long ... but now they are fighting for your cause and from what you say they seem to be representing you well at this point.
 
The Federal Court in Sao Paulo has not wronged you, yet. If they request your presence there, I would go taking every precaution the AGU can give. I would stop initiating mediation with the TP.
 
Keep the faith!
 
Just one opinion (actually, maybe 4 or 5) ...
Title: Please Respond to My Survey
Post by: tweinstein on May 21, 2009, 06:31:10 PM
I posted a survey recently asking LBPs about their experiences with the AGU/BCA and OCI. Since people are discussing this topic in this thread, I thought it was reasonable to direct some traffic to my survey.

http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?p=22097#post22097
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on May 23, 2009, 08:00:32 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;22326

About the trip to Brazil, I have been told by many people that I cannot go to Brazil for any reason until the Federal Court has issued a final judgment ordering the return of the children and stating that I can travel to Brazil and pick them up. Many people have told me that if I go to Brazil before this happens, that I could be arrested and forced to pay child support for my abducted children and sign over custody to my ex-wife. What is your opinion about this?

In Brasil, differently from US, a parent can not travel with the kids without the permission of the other parent, and this permission must be clear and written in a public office, with the presence of both parents, in front of an official so he can testify it was a valid permission.
 
So, you can not come to Brasil and pick up the child and leave the country without that permission of the mother. You can only do this with a judge order.
 
About child support, in this situations is better the LBP do a little investigation to know if the "kidnapper" mother/father initiated a lawsuit asking child support in a Family Law State Court.
 
Once the "kidnapper" initiate the lawsuit, he/she may ask the judge to give the order without "listening" first the LBP. Depending on the situation and the arguments, the judge may order it or not. If he/she order it, the parent/LBP must pay and obey the order within 3 days.
 
The judge can only give a prison order if:
 
1) the parent was found and was given acknowledge about the obligation to give child support; and;
 
2) the parent (LBP) doesnīt pay and doesnīt say why he wonīt or why he canīt pay it., and;
 
3) the parent/LBP didnīt pay the last 3 months of child support.
 
So, you will only be arrested here if your ex-wife initiated a lawsuit more than 3 months earlier, an Courtīs Offcial finds you and say to you there is a judge order for child support and if you donīt do nothing during 3 days.
 
Itīs better you look for some attorney to help you on avoiding this problem, so if a Courtīs Official finds you, the attorney must answer and explain the judge the whole history, I believe any reasonable judge would order a child support after he/she be aware that the issue is about International Abduction of a child, or when the Federal Justice didnīt yet decided if it is or not a HC case.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on May 23, 2009, 10:50:13 PM
In regards to arrest for non-payment of child support, I just received tentative confirmation that the AGU filed motions to stay the order against me. This clears the way for me to travel to visit my children without the risk of arrest.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 24, 2009, 10:47:56 AM
Quote from: tweinstein;22602
In regards to arrest for non-payment of child support, I just received tentative confirmation that the AGU filed motions to stay the order against me. This clears the way for me to travel to visit my children without the risk of arrest.
Oh my God.  To think that someone can abduct your children to another country and then ask for child support is just unbelievalbe to me.  And then the threat of being arrested, great way to keep the LBP away from their children forever.  What do they base the amount of child support on?  Do they ask for annual salary from the LBP?  And if they don't get the information from the LBP, how do they know it is accurate?  This is all so wrong in so many ways, it makes me feel helpless.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on May 24, 2009, 11:03:01 AM
Quote from: gail;22624
Oh my God. To think that someone can abduct your children to another country and then ask for child support is just unbelievalbe to me. And then the threat of being arrested, great way to keep the LBP away from their children forever. What do they base the amount of child support on? Do they ask for annual salary from the LBP? And if they don't get the information from the LBP, how do they know it is accurate? This is all so wrong in so many ways, it makes me feel helpless.

thatīs a disgusting maneuver.
The payment is monthly, and the amount is based on the regular expenses a child has to education and health and it depends on the social-economic status of the LBP, kidnapper mom or dad and the child.
 
One correction: the judge will always order the payment even before the judge listen to LBPīs arguments, except if the kidnapper parent says he/she doesnīt need it immediatly.
 
As the LBP not lives in Brasil and so sending an official to LBPīs home to inform about the order is impossible, the kidnapper may ask the judge to publish the order in the Official Press, so, after 3 days of the the publishing, and if the LBP come to Brasil, he/she will be at the risk of being arrested.
 
Thatīs very unfair with LBP and I donīt have sure about how exactly is the proceedings when the parent doesnīt live inside brasil territory, I will ask a Family Law judge how exactly is the proceeding when the "debtor" is a foreigner.
 
But I believe any Family Law judge would revoke a childīs suport order when he heard about the whole situation.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 24, 2009, 11:03:03 AM
How brazen these women are.  So mighty and bold hiding behind anther country, I would love to see them have to come back and answer for their behavior.  This is what needs to be done, these women need to be sent back with their children and face what they have done.  Very brazen while being protected by another country, makes me sick.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 24, 2009, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;22625
thatīs a disgusting maneuver.
The payment is monthly, and the amount is based on the regular expenses a child has to education and health and it depends on the social-economic status of the LBP, kidnapper mom or dad and the child.
 
One correction: the judge will always order the payment even before the judge listen to LBPīs arguments, except if the kidnapper parent says he/she doesnīt need it immediatly.
 
As the LBP not lives in Brasil and so sending an official to LBPīs home to inform about the order is impossible, the kidnapper may ask the judge to publish the order in the Official Press, so, after 3 days of the the publishing, and if the LBP come to Brasil, he/she will be at the risk of being arrested.
Thatīs very unfair with LBP and I donīt have sure about how exactly is the proceedings when the parent doesnīt live inside brasil territory, I will ask a Family Law judge how exactly is the proceeding when the "debtor" is a foreigner.
 
But I believe any Family Law judge would revoke a childīs suport order when he discover about the whole situation.
What if the LBP cannot afford the child support the judge orders?  They need to know how much the LBP makes each year and that cannot and should not come from the abducting parent.  They have no problem stealing children from the  LBP, they have no problem with lying about how much money the LBP makes.  And to publish this in the paper?  The LBP does not read the Brazil newspapers.  This is so wrong.  Change needs to come in this country of yours.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: André Felipe on May 24, 2009, 11:15:10 AM
Quote from: gail;22627
What if the LBP cannot afford the child support the judge orders? They need to know how much the LBP makes each year and that cannot and should not come from the abducting parent. They have no problem stealing children from the LBP, they have no problem with lying about how much money the LBP makes. And to publish this in the paper? The LBP does not read the Brazil newspapers. This is so wrong. Change needs to come in this country of yours.

the LBP will be arrested if he/she doesnīt do nothing.
So, he/she must answer to the judge, through an attorney or AGU or a public attorney, that he/she can not afford the support payment, and then the judge will revoke the order.
 
I am just saying how the law is, and of course the law wasnīt written to be applied with those situation when the parents lives in different countries, so, I believe there are some differences when the judge knows the father/mother doesnīt lives in Brasil. And of course the kidnapper parent would never say to the judge "I left USA without permission of my fatherīs kids and am living in Brasil with my kids without his consent, and now I want a child support", no judge would give what the kidnapper wants if he knows what is actually happening.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on May 24, 2009, 12:04:25 PM
Quote from: gail;22627
What if the LBP cannot afford the child support the judge orders?  They need to know how much the LBP makes each year and that cannot and should not come from the abducting parent.  They have no problem stealing children from the  LBP, they have no problem with lying about how much money the LBP makes.  And to publish this in the paper?  The LBP does not read the Brazil newspapers.  This is so wrong.  Change needs to come in this country of yours.


There is a Hague Convention on international child support that should be used in these cases though the name of it escapes me now.  Perhaps Brazil has not acceeded to it or perhaps it just ignores it like the abduction convention.  It actually has been used by abductors to collect child support from LBP's in the US with the help of the OCI in the past.  I'd like to think they have corrected that oversite of theirs but I'm not sure that they have.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on May 24, 2009, 02:42:32 PM
Quote from: carlos;22630
There is a Hague Convention on international child support that should be used in these cases though the name of it escapes me now. Perhaps Brazil has not acceeded to it or perhaps it just ignores it like the abduction convention. It actually has been used by abductors to collect child support from LBP's in the US with the help of the OCI in the past. I'd like to think they have corrected that oversite of theirs but I'm not sure that they have.
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=131
 
So far, the United States and Burkina Faso are the only signatories.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on May 24, 2009, 10:05:34 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;22638
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=131
 
So far, the United States and Burkina Faso are the only signatories.


Ha!  I remember reading that thing a while ago when I read an article about abductors getting LBP's to pay child support and was worried my wife could try to make me pay to support her keeping my son in Mexico and not letting me see him... Safe to say that's a fairly useless convention for the time being though.  There is a site that lists the countries which have specific bilateral child support agreements with the US here (http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/international/) There are only 15 of them and neither Brazil or Mexico is one of them.  Still there are various other generic (not child-support specific) conventions that can be used to collect civil damages internationally.

I've never heard of LBP's that go to Mexico getting jailed for child support..  I don't really understand how it happens in Brazil.  In order for child support to be charged a custody hearing must take place and the Hague Convention says all custody proceedings must be suspended until the Hague case has been decided.

As an interesting side note the family Judge that heard my Hague case ordered me to pay all my wife's legal fees in contesting the Hague case under some Mexican civil code for the losing party in civil cases.  Only one of many mistakes she made.

Article 26 of the HC states (in part):

Upon ordering the return of a child or issuing an order concerning rights of access under this Convention, the judicial or administrative authorities may, where appropriate, direct the person who removed or retained the child, or who prevented the exercise of rights of access, to pay necessary expenses incurred by or on behalf of the applicant, including travel expenses, any costs incurred or payments made for locating the child, the costs of legal representation of the applicant, and those of returning the child.

There is no provision for the abducting parent to charge the LBP their legal fees in a Hague case.  I'm curious to know how much she claims to have spent in legal fees though, unfortunately, despite telling me I had to pay them the judge never said what they were.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on May 24, 2009, 10:26:27 PM
I would not pay a damn thing to anyone who abducted my child.  And I'm sorry Andre, but the judge obviously knows that the mother is at the very least being accused of abducting Twienstein's children.  A judge would ask "where is the father and why isn't he here"  "has he been notified", all of that I'm sure should be asked.  I've been through a divorce and the child support thing and none of this would ever happen here in the US.  I'm not saying we are perfect, far from it, but safe to say nothing like this is going to happen.  It is a safe haven for child abductors and something has got to be done about it.  They have signed onto the Hague Convention, now they need to act on it and send these children home within the 6 week time frame.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on June 02, 2009, 06:18:39 PM
Great news today with the return of Sean Goldman to his father David. I hope this is a sign of good things to come. It has given me new hope in being able to recover my 3 children from Brazil. I hope this website and forum stay on, to continue helping all left behind parents in recovering their abducted children.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 06:23:52 PM
Everytime I am out running around I seem to see a "Chabad", it makes me cringe.  My husband says it's a scary bunch.  I told him about your case, awful.  Has anything new happened?  I suppose I should have put that under your thread?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 06:28:59 PM
Quote from: Bindlerkids;25007
What is a Chabad?? forgive my ignorance is it some religion group?
Radical Jewish group.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on June 12, 2009, 03:42:33 PM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;22363
Even if it is hard dealing with the DoS-OCI, you need to persevere... Their job is to shake the information out of the BCA/ AGU...
 
The BCA/ AGU did you wrong. 20 months is at least twice as long as anything else I have heard. They are your Attorney (not actually your Attorney but work with me). The Brazilian Federal Court has not done you wrong, yet. Their response to the AGU's filing was typical. All they said was "wait, let's hear the taking parents side to make sure there is aren't any grave risk concerns". Effectively, they agreed in part to the AGU's assertion that:
 
1) Florida is the "habitual residence"
 
2) That you were asseting your custody rights when the children were wrongfully rmoved.
 
Be angry with the DoS-OCI, but continue to badger them and be professional... Be angry with the AGU for taking so long ... but now they are fighting for your cause and from what you say they seem to be representing you well at this point... The Federal Court in Sao Paulo has not wronged you, yet... I would stop initiating mediation with the TP...

Last week I receive another copy of a filing by the AGU about a month after it was filed. A few pages were missing. My favorite quote in that document was: "Everything that Smadar Hameiry has told us from the beggining of the process has been proven to be a lie." Several examples are mentioned: (a) That she said she left Florida because her visa had expired, but it was proven that was false, (b) that she did not participated in the Florida divorce, when she had a Florida attorney representing her, and (c) that she stated that the marriage ceremony took place in the Brazilian Embassy in Tel Aviv, when in reality it took place in Jerusalem, Israel.
 
This week there were interesting developments. On May 15, 2009, I made the proposal that maybe the children should move to Israel... On Monday, June 8, I get a phone call at almost 5pm from the person handling the case at the US State Dept, saying that I need to send her an email saying that I accept the proposal and that the children will be moving from Brazil to Israel. But that I must send her an email within 30 minutes, saying that I give my permission that my children travel to Israel. So I told her that I want to see everything in writing before I send any emails, and that I do not understand why after ignoring my case for more than 2 years, suddenly I'm being told to send an email within 30 minutes. She responded that if I do not send her this email right now, the Judge was going to deny the return of my children and that I would not be seeing them again for many years...
 
After about 30 minutes, she calls me again in desperation asking me if I already sent her this email. Again, I told her that before I respond to anything or give any authorizations to anything, I first need to know what is going on, that I want to see everything in writing, and I want to have copies of all the documents from the Brazilian Federal Court to understand what exactly is happening before I give my response to anything, and that besides, the people at the BCA are already not at the office at this time. She said that they are at the office (after hours) and they are just waiting for my confirmation.
 
A couple of hours later I sent her an email saying what I told her over the phone, that before anything is done, I first need to see all the Court documents to understand what is happening. And also that I cannot understand why they are making threats and ultimatums that if I do not reply within 30 minutes, I will not see my children again.
 
The next morning, I get an email from her (USCA) saying "Thank you for having given your authorization..." with copies being sent to the various people at the BCA and AGU. I immediately responded with several emails saying that I never gave any authorizations...
 
Then she (USCA) calls me and tells me that there was a missunderstanding and then she send me a letter that she received from the BCA, and a Court document explaining what is the situation. The day before she said she did not have those documents, but that was another lie. After reading these documents, what essentially says is that I have to give the Court permission to return the passports to Smadar Hameiry and also that would imply that the case is closed and the children do not have to be returned. Obviously, a dirty trick by the BCA/USCA in order to try to get me to drop this case. And still they are refusing to send me the Court documents.
 
The Court document also stated that I can now talk to my children over the phone at Smadar Hameiry's (her parents) house, and at the Chabad school, and the 2 phone numbers are listed. I called Smadar's house, her father answered the phone, and as soon as he heard my voice he hanged up. Then I called the school, where I was told that Smadar Hameiry had given them strict instruction to not let my children talk to me.
 
Last but not least, this Court document also implied that if I would give the Court permission to return the passports to Smadar Hameiry, that she would have complete custody over my children. And that's why she (USCA) tried to fool me into sending her this email.
 
Since I refused to approve this thing, the USCA has stopped talking to me and is not returning my phone calls or emails....
 
If anyone reading this is a Brazilian lawyer, or somehow has the opportunity to get info from the Brazilian Federal Court about what is going on with my case, or if he knows how to look at this over the internet, please let me know.
 
The case number is: Processo no 2009.61.00.055504-2 - 23a Var Federal - SP
Partes: Union X Smadar Hameiry
 
Your questions opinions and advice are always more than welcomed.
 
Thank you!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Teena on June 12, 2009, 04:34:25 PM
I am so sorry. I don't know how to help you. But I do want to say that what they tried to pull on you is absolutely disgusting and shameful. Also the fact that you have orders to talk to your children and they are not complying. If I were you I would contact tweinstein. He seems to be knowlegeable about these things and may be able to point you in the right direction.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on June 13, 2009, 11:18:37 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;32587
Last week I receive another copy of a filing by the AGU about a month after it was filed. A few pages were missing. My favorite quote in that document was: "Everything that Smadar Hameiry has told us from the beggining of the process has been proven to be a lie." Several examples are mentioned: (a) That she said she left Florida because her visa had expired, but it was proven that was false, (b) that she did not participated in the Florida divorce, when she had a Florida attorney representing her, and (c) that she stated that the marriage ceremony took place in the Brazilian Embassy in Tel Aviv, when in reality it took place in Jerusalem, Israel.
 
This week there were interesting developments. On May 15, 2009, I made the proposal that maybe the children should move to Israel...

To whom did you make this proposal and how? Did you make this proposal to Smadar Hameiry through DoS-OCI/ BCA/ AGU or is this more conversating through Rabbi's?

On Monday, June 8, I get a phone call at almost 5pm from the person handling the case at the US State Dept, saying that I need to send her an email saying that I accept the proposal and that the children will be moving from Brazil to Israel. But that I must send her an email within 30 minutes, saying that I give my permission that my children travel to Israel. So I told her that I want to see everything in writing before I send any emails, and that I do not understand why after ignoring my case for more than 2 years, suddenly I'm being told to send an email within 30 minutes. She responded that if I do not send her this email right now, the Judge was going to deny the return of my children and that I would not be seeing them again for many years...
 
After about 30 minutes, she calls me again in desperation asking me if I already sent her this email. Again, I told her that before I respond to anything or give any authorizations to anything, I first need to know what is going on, that I want to see everything in writing, and I want to have copies of all the documents from the Brazilian Federal Court to understand what exactly is happening before I give my response to anything, and that besides, the people at the BCA are already not at the office at this time. She said that they are at the office (after hours) and they are just waiting for my confirmation.
 
A couple of hours later I sent her an email saying what I told her over the phone, that before anything is done, I first need to see all the Court documents to understand what is happening. And also that I cannot understand why they are making threats and ultimatums that if I do not reply within 30 minutes, I will not see my children again.
 
The next morning, I get an email from her (USCA) saying "Thank you for having given your authorization..." with copies being sent to the various people at the BCA and AGU. I immediately responded with several emails saying that I never gave any authorizations...
 
Then she (USCA) calls me and tells me that there was a missunderstanding and then she send me a letter that she received from the BCA, and a Court document explaining what is the situation. The day before she said she did not have those documents, but that was another lie. After reading these documents, what essentially says is that I have to give the Court permission to return the passports to Smadar Hameiry and also that would imply that the case is closed and the children do not have to be returned. Obviously, a dirty trick by the BCA/USCA in order to try to get me to drop this case. And still they are refusing to send me the Court documents.
 
The Court document also stated that I can now talk to my children over the phone at Smadar Hameiry's (her parents) house, and at the Chabad school, and the 2 phone numbers are listed. I called Smadar's house, her father answered the phone, and as soon as he heard my voice he hanged up. Then I called the school, where I was told that Smadar Hameiry had given them strict instruction to not let my children talk to me.
 
Last but not least, this Court document also implied that if I would give the Court permission to return the passports to Smadar Hameiry, that she would have complete custody over my children. And that's why she (USCA) tried to fool me into sending her this email.
 
Since I refused to approve this thing, the USCA has stopped talking to me and is not returning my phone calls or emails....
 
If anyone reading this is a Brazilian lawyer, or somehow has the opportunity to get info from the Brazilian Federal Court about what is going on with my case, or if he knows how to look at this over the internet, please let me know.
 
The case number is: Processo no 2009.61.00.055504-2 - 23a Var Federal - SP
Partes: Union X Smadar Hameiry
 
Your questions opinions and advice are always more than welcomed.
 
Thank you!

First, I am sorry for your pain and stress. Your situation certainly is particular.

The Hague convention is there to return children to their "habitual residence" so that custody can be determined in the proper jurisdiction. They are not returning the children to you, but to the place in Florida that you are that the children are/ were adapted. As soon as you try to mediate to something other than that narrow path I am not sure the Hague applies anymore. Again, I think this is a bad idea; if you relinquish your Hague rights, they give her the Passports back, I assume she has custody in Brasil and she can travel anywhere in the world. I think you're getting bad advice and should be getting a fair shake in Sao Paulo. My 2 cents, again. My guess is that the Public Prosecutor (MPF) and Judge in Sao Paulo will look dimly on her lying ways; the truth is on your side!!

I assume the plan was that everybody goes back to Israel and custody and child support is determined anew, there? Why would she agree to that when she has not voluntarily returned to this point? Could she not have fled to Israel when she fled to Brasil? Why would she agree? Maybe to get the civil case pressure off her back?

I would stay the course in Sao Paulo trying to get the children returned to their "habitual residence" but I don't know much about what has transpired. I hope you haven't weakened your case with this mediation. Guess that was 4 cents.

You case is running under secret of justice by now, I would guess. I wasn't able to find anything here, but my Portuguese ain't so hot:

http://www.trf3.jus.br/

http://www.jfsp.jus.br/
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on June 13, 2009, 11:35:00 AM
Who is USCA?  And I agree with Dan, you need to keep this a Hague fight to get the children back.  Sounds like she is capable of anything and why should she go to Israel?  She won't come back to Florida, who knows what she has planned.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: SageDad on June 13, 2009, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: gail;32889
Who is USCA?  And I agree with Dan, you need to keep this a Hague fight to get the children back.  Sounds like she is capable of anything and why should she go to Israel?  She won't come back to Florida, who knows what she has planned.


The USCA is the US Central Authority or Office of Children's Issues in the US State Department.  They play lip service to supporting left behind parents but their primary goal is to "resolve" international child abductions and thereby avoid diplomatic problems with other countries (the primary goal of the State Dept is, and always has been, international diplomacy).  Actually returning children is incidental to that goal.  If pushed for clarification the OCI will admit they are not there to help left behind parents but rather to "help" the children even when that means helping the abducting parent, though "generally helping the left behind parent aligns with helping the children".  In doing this the OCI often acts as judge, jury and executioner and makes unilateral decisions, often without all the pertinent information, that can lead directly or indirectly to Hague cases being denied.  In my case they refused to release information about entry and exit records into the US for my wife and son.  By doing so they seek to ensure what they consider to be the "best interest of the child" and avoid a situation where the Mexican courts order my son's return but fail to properly execute that order (which makes for a proper diplomatic mess).  They view the child's "best interests" through the previously mentioned prism of avoiding international conflicts.  That is to say they generally view the best interests of the child as aligned with avoiding international conflicts and "resolving" cases.

If you would have agreed to allow your wife to move to Israel you would have vacated your standing as a petitioner in the Hague case and the OCI would have happily marked your case as "resolved" the next time they quietly file their Non-Compliance Report (which they only make because the Congress requires them to by law).
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on June 13, 2009, 10:34:31 PM
That's terrible.  How can they get away with trying to trick and lie to a left behind parent?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on July 08, 2009, 10:36:07 PM
Latest update on this case: Smadar Hameiry called me on Tuesday June 30, crying and begging me to give her a written authorization to allow her and the children to leave Brazil.
 
Smadar Hameiry abandoned the children in Brazil. She was calling from Israel.
 
Other people had previously told me that she had arrived in Israel around June 23rd. She told me she had already found a house in Israel and that she was now looking for a job there. In the meantime, she had obtained unemployment insurance from the government.
 
During her phone call she told me she hates Brazil, that she can't stand it anymore. She also confirmed the involvement of Chabad in this abduction by giving me specific details about what happened during the last 3 weeks she was in Florida.
 
She has been telling the children all this time that they were abandoned by their father, and now Smadar Hameiry abandons them and goes on vacation to Israel. She told me that the children have not stopped crying since she left Brazil. Obviously, first they are told that their father abandoned them, and now they feel their mother has abandoned them. This is a very cruel thing to do.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on July 08, 2009, 11:00:19 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;41476
Latest update on this case: Smadar Hameiry called me on Tuesday June 30, crying and begging me to give her a written authorization to allow her and the children to leave Brazil.
 
Smadar Hameiry abandoned the children in Brazil. She was calling from Israel.
 
Other people had previously told me that she had arrived in Israel around June 23rd. She told me she had already found a house in Israel and that she was now looking for a job there. In the meantime, she had obtained unemployment insurance from the government.
 
During her phone call she told me she hates Brazil, that she can't stand it anymore. She also confirmed the involvement of Chabad in this abduction by giving me specific details about what happened during the last 3 weeks she was in Florida.
 
She has been telling the children all this time that they were abandoned by their father, and now Smadar Hameiry abandons them and goes on vacation to Israel. She told me that the children have not stopped crying since she left Brazil. Obviously, first they are told that their father abandoned them, and now they feel their mother has abandoned them. This is a very cruel thing to do.
Just MY 2 cents too, but she knows that you want the children to go to Israel. She calls you from there, you give her authorization, and she returns to Brazil, having won her case, and you no longer have any recourse. She'll never leave Brazil because it is the ONLY country that will protect her....She's LYING....
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: noah3698 on July 08, 2009, 11:32:47 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;41476
Latest update on this case: Smadar Hameiry called me on Tuesday June 30, crying and begging me to give her a written authorization to allow her and the children to leave Brazil.
 
Smadar Hameiry abandoned the children in Brazil. She was calling from Israel.
 
Other people had previously told me that she had arrived in Israel around June 23rd. She told me she had already found a house in Israel and that she was now looking for a job there. In the meantime, she had obtained unemployment insurance from the government.
 
During her phone call she told me she hates Brazil, that she can't stand it anymore. She also confirmed the involvement of Chabad in this abduction by giving me specific details about what happened during the last 3 weeks she was in Florida.
 
She has been telling the children all this time that they were abandoned by their father, and now Smadar Hameiry abandons them and goes on vacation to Israel. She told me that the children have not stopped crying since she left Brazil. Obviously, first they are told that their father abandoned them, and now they feel their mother has abandoned them. This is a very cruel thing to do.

Who did she leave your children with?  I think you should go to Brazil and get them.  This is horrible.  I am shocked that the State Dept. lied to you like that, really shocked.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on July 09, 2009, 12:00:56 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;41476
Latest update on this case: Smadar Hameiry called me on Tuesday June 30, crying and begging me to give her a written authorization to allow her and the children to leave Brazil.
 
Smadar Hameiry abandoned the children in Brazil. She was calling from Israel.
 
Other people had previously told me that she had arrived in Israel around June 23rd. She told me she had already found a house in Israel and that she was now looking for a job there. In the meantime, she had obtained unemployment insurance from the government.
 
During her phone call she told me she hates Brazil, that she can't stand it anymore. She also confirmed the involvement of Chabad in this abduction by giving me specific details about what happened during the last 3 weeks she was in Florida.
 
She has been telling the children all this time that they were abandoned by their father, and now Smadar Hameiry abandons them and goes on vacation to Israel. She told me that the children have not stopped crying since she left Brazil. Obviously, first they are told that their father abandoned them, and now they feel their mother has abandoned them. This is a very cruel thing to do.

What has happened in the last week? Have you spoken with DoS-OCI and they in turn talked with BCA/AGU? They need to know she has abandoned the children so they can speak to the judge @ TRF-3, immediately. The Judge should order the return of the children post-haste!! Then go scoop them up and bring them home ...

What has happened in the last week?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: lisacallenwood on July 09, 2009, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;41476
Latest update on this case: Smadar Hameiry called me on Tuesday June 30, crying and begging me to give her a written authorization to allow her and the children to leave Brazil.
 
Smadar Hameiry abandoned the children in Brazil. She was calling from Israel.
 
Other people had previously told me that she had arrived in Israel around June 23rd. She told me she had already found a house in Israel and that she was now looking for a job there. In the meantime, she had obtained unemployment insurance from the government.
 
During her phone call she told me she hates Brazil, that she can't stand it anymore. She also confirmed the involvement of Chabad in this abduction by giving me specific details about what happened during the last 3 weeks she was in Florida.
 
She has been telling the children all this time that they were abandoned by their father, and now Smadar Hameiry abandons them and goes on vacation to Israel. She told me that the children have not stopped crying since she left Brazil. Obviously, first they are told that their father abandoned them, and now they feel their mother has abandoned them. This is a very cruel thing to do.

Your children are being emotionally abused. Is there anyway you can confirm she is in fact in Israel?? And that the children remain in Brazil?? If this is the case I think contacting the authorities immediately would be the right thing to do. Be careful with Smadar. She is crazy like a fox.  
 
Wishing you luck - and please keep us posted.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on July 09, 2009, 09:21:51 AM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;41482
What has happened in the last week? Have you spoken with DoS-OCI and they in turn talked with BCA/AGU? They need to know she has abandoned the children so they can speak to the judge @ TRF-3, immediately. The Judge should order the return of the children post-haste!! Then go scoop them up and bring them home ...

What has happened in the last week?

You also need to contact the US Consulate in Sao Paulo and request that they check on the children. Tell them that they have been abandoned by the Mother. You should have her address there before she left because you were able to have her served. If they (the Consulate) can't find them, then Interpol, Federal Police or MP will need to get involved.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: dmdaven2 on July 09, 2009, 10:47:45 AM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;41499
You also need to contact the US Consulate in Sao Paulo and request that they check on the children. Tell them that they have been abandoned by the Mother. You should have her address there before she left because you were able to have her served. If they (the Consulate) can't find them, then Interpol, Federal Police or MP will need to get involved.

 
Don't hold your breath, they've been "searching" for my daughter since March...:nixweiss:
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 09, 2009, 11:58:22 AM
I wouldn't sign anything.  She asked you for written permission for her and the kids but she isn't there?  Something isn't adding up.  I would make some calls and find out where your kids are, if she's in Israel you should go get your kids pronto.  She's done nothing but lie and try to trick you into signing things and giving permission, I wouldn't believe any of it.
 
Keep us informed.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on July 09, 2009, 01:40:50 PM
Quote from: gail;41533
I wouldn't sign anything.  She asked you for written permission for her and the kids but she isn't there?  Something isn't adding up.  I would make some calls and find out where your kids are, if she's in Israel you should go get your kids pronto.  She's done nothing but lie and try to trick you into signing things and giving permission, I wouldn't believe any of it.
 
Keep us informed.

Absolutely agree!!!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: jjsaunt on July 09, 2009, 04:48:19 PM
If she has abandoned the kids and he "won" the case, shouldn't he be able to present the documents to Interpol and pick up the kids and get them into an embassy.  Once they are in the embassy, if the father has the right documents shouldn't he be able to come down and get them.  There isn't anyone else in Brasil with custody (yet....) and if they haven't been dumped into the foster program... maybe!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Jessica on July 17, 2009, 11:29:21 AM
Has anything else happened with this in the last week or so? I've been checking back to see if the childeren were abandoned by mom or if this was a trick to mess with their father?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 17, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
Yes, has anybody heard from him?  Maybe Tweinstein has?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Bree on July 17, 2009, 05:23:08 PM
Good question...I was talking to my Mom today about this case.  I hope that she wasn't once again messing with him.  Hopefully he was able to go get his children!
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on July 19, 2009, 06:52:38 AM
Quote from: gail;42648
Yes, has anybody heard from him? Maybe Tweinstein has?
I can send him an email and ask if there is anything new.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 19, 2009, 10:13:13 AM
Thanks.  I would like to know if he's been able to get his children.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Dan_Plainview on July 19, 2009, 10:29:47 AM
I've been trying to PM him since Monday but to no avail ... Maybe he'll answer Tweinstein (BTW, hope you had a great trip!)

I was hoping he was in Sao Paulo scooping up his children ...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 19, 2009, 12:29:47 PM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;42780
I've been trying to PM him since Monday but to no avail ... Maybe he'll answer Tweinstein (BTW, hope you had a great trip!)
 
I was hoping he was in Sao Paulo scooping up his children ...

I hope it wasn't a trick to get him over there and then have him thrown in jail for child support.  I sure wish he would give us an up date, I'm a little worried.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 20, 2009, 08:35:42 PM
I'm worried.   I wonder why we have not heard anything from him.  I hope he's not in a Brazilian jail.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on July 20, 2009, 10:01:40 PM
Quote from: gail;42979
I'm worried. I wonder why we have not heard anything from him. I hope he's not in a Brazilian jail.
Hey, Binder! do you have any eyes on the street that could find out?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: buckeye on July 28, 2009, 05:01:44 PM
Quote from: Sashia;42988
Hey, Binder! do you have any eyes on the street that could find out?

 
Any word?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: forthelost on July 28, 2009, 05:11:22 PM
I see he's online. I hope for an update.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: buckeye on July 28, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
Quote from: forthelost;43839
I see he's online. I hope for an update.

Oh, good - I didn't notice that!
:)
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on July 28, 2009, 06:27:13 PM
Thanks for your support and advice, and thanks for asking. Too many things are happening too fast. Not everything can be published.
 
In addition to all the government agencies and attorneys, I have consulted with over 100 Rabbis about what to do. They all agree in one thing: The children were abducted by Chabad. Smadar Hameiry is being manipulated by Chabad. They have seen this exact situation many times before. Without Chabad, there would not have been an abduction, and the children would not be abducted right now. My children's abduction was organized and financed by Chabad, which is a criminal organization and a religious cult.
 
Smadar Hameiry thinks that Chabad is assisting her in abducting the children. The Rabbis say that in reality it's Smadar Hameiry the one who is assisting Chabad in abducting the children. Sooner or later, if the children are not recovered, Chabad will also take the children away from Smadar Hameiry. I have already heard of 3 other identical stories where a crazy woman abducted her children away from their father with the "help" of Chabad. Then, after having alienated the children from their father, Chabad proceeded and alienated the children from their mother. The reason that Smadar Hameiry was targeted by Chabad is because they knew while she was working at the Chabad school in Florida that she was crazy. This Chabad kidnapping system only works if the children's mother has severe mental problems, because a normal woman would never abduct her children no matter what they tell her.
 
About Smadar Hameiry's phone call, everyone agrees it was a trick. Everyone has advised me not to sign anything. I think that is more than obvious to everyone. Also, the general feeling is that she has no intention of taking the children to Israel.
 
Smadar Hameiry in reality does not need my permission nor written authorization to leave Brazil and go to Israel. Everything in Brazil is done with money. If the passports were really confiscated by the Brazilian government, she can buy new ones, and also get some fake documents stating that I gave her permission to leave Brazil.
 
Several of the Rabbis I spoke to told me that if they would be Smadar Hameiry's lawyer, they would advise her to return the children to Florida immediately, because that is the best thing she could do for herself. Smadar Hameiry is not being properly advised, and who is advising her? Chabad!
 
Also, the Rabbis have told me that if Smadar Hameiry takes the children to Israel, that would not mean that she would let me see my children, and at the same time, if the children are in Israel, I would have to pay child support.
 
The big advantage that the Rabbis see if Smadar Hameiry takes the children to Israel, is that all schools in Israel are free, so Smadar Hameiry will no longer be dependent on Chabad to get free school for the children, and the children (and Smadar Hameiry) would be saved from Chabad.
 
Smadar Hameiry has stated that she would like to move to Israel with the children at the end of July on time for the start of the Israeli school year in August. So in a few more weeks we'll know if Smadar Hameiry has moved the children to Israel or if she has decided to stay in Brazil.
 
In the meantime, the best way to proceed is to get maximum publicity about this child abduction case in the Brazilian media, to try to get news reporters to ask questions about the abducted Jewish children in the Chabad school.
 
I have also been told that my children are not the only abducted children in that Chabad school and in the other Chabad schools in Brazil. But who are the other children? Can someone find out their names?
 
If someone can get a TV station to do a report about the abducted children in Brazil, showing film of them going in and out of the Chabad school, asking questions to the people working at the Chabad school what do they feel about being accomplices and partners in the abduction of children to Brazil, and so on, the children would soon be returned, because Chabad hates it when people expose their illegal activities.
 
Thanks again for your help, support, and advise.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Sashia on July 28, 2009, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: hatufim.org;43843
Thanks for your support and advice, and thanks for asking. Too many things are happening too fast. Not everything can be published.
 
In addition to all the government agencies and attorneys, I have consulted with over 100 Rabbis about what to do. They all agree in one thing: The children were abducted by Chabad. Smadar Hameiry is being manipulated by Chabad. They have seen this exact situation many times before. Without Chabad, there would not have been an abduction, and the children would not be abducted right now. My children's abduction was organized and financed by Chabad, which is a criminal organization and a religious cult.
 About Smadar Hameiry's phone call, everyone agrees it was a trick. .
  The big advantage that the Rabbis see if Smadar Hameiry takes the children to Israel, is that all schools in Israel are free,  
 
in a few more weeks we'll know if Smadar Hameiry has moved the children to Israel or if she has decided to stay in Brazil.
.
 Thanks again for your help, support, and advise.
Very interesting, I would venture to say though, that if Chabad has such a hold on Smadar Hameiry and she is mentally unbalanced, I can't see her breaking away and going to Israel. I sure couldn't see Chabad "helping her" to take the kids to Israel. I more likely see them preventing her from leaving Brazil.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: rachelle4 on July 28, 2009, 07:07:22 PM
Hatufim, I hope your boys are safe and returned to you soon. So Smadar wasn't really in Israel when she called you?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 28, 2009, 07:30:25 PM
Good lord.  Can't you get an attorney to file something is Brazil saying she is mentally ill and cannot take care of her children and that she is being held by Chabad?  I would think something like this could be done if this woman is mentally ill.  She is an unfit parent and the children should be taken.  What is the agency in Brazil that is like CPS?  Maybe they don't have one, but something should be done about that if the children are in danger.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: jl2saint on July 28, 2009, 08:10:05 PM
If someone can get a TV station to do a report about the abducted children in Brazil, showing film of them going in and out of the Chabad school, asking questions to the people working at the Chabad school what do they feel about being accomplices and partners in the abduction of children to Brazil, and so on, the children would soon be returned, because Chabad hates it when people expose their illegal activities.
 
Thanks again for your help, support, and advise.[/quote]
 I'd PM Rio Gringa..............

Her blog is well read in Rio and could garner some support......

Just an idea, but it can't hurt to have her blog about this situation and combine it w/ Dave's plight......
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on July 28, 2009, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: gail;43855
Good lord.  Can't you get an attorney to file something is Brazil saying she is mentally ill and cannot take care of her children and that she is being held by Chabad?  I would think something like this could be done if this woman is mentally ill.  She is an unfit parent and the children should be taken.  What is the agency in Brazil that is like CPS?  Maybe they don't have one, but something should be done about that if the children are in danger.
Do you think that CPS would behave differently than they did in the Zanger case? At least there is no evidence that these three children are at imminent risk of physical harm.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: sue on July 29, 2009, 09:52:14 AM
Quote from: tweinstein;43873
Do you think that CPS would behave differently than they did in the Zanger case? At least there is no evidence that these three children are at imminent risk of physical harm.
Of course they should, but what I think and what actually happens are very different.  I just can't believe any of this is going on.  Also I don't understand how Chabad is getting away with this?  The whole thing is unbelieveable.   The Zanger case is the same, I just don't understand how this can go on.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on July 30, 2009, 04:40:23 PM
Quote from: gail;43908
I just can't believe any of this is going on. Also I don't understand how Chabad is getting away with this? The whole thing is unbelieveable. I just don't understand how this can go on.

No one can understand how this can go on. Anybody with good moral values, good family values, any normal person can understand this is wrong. But, according to the NCMEC and others, law enforcement systematically ignores all these cases of child abduction and child abuse.
 
The following video is in Spanish, it shows a case in Mexico and a case in the USA. This video was given to the police by the children's parents, but nothing was done to the child abusers shown in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEiFbQKr6zg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEiFbQKr6zg)
 
Chabad, Smadar Hameiry, and the others, are just using the "system" of corrupt, lazy, negligent, incompetent Judges, police, and various government agencies in Brazil and the USA, to get away with committing these crimes against children.
 
According to several Rabbis, Chabad has been doing it for over 50 years... Once they know the police and FBI are going to do nothing about it, and that they are always going to get away with it, they keep doing it over and over again... Undeterred... Unafraid...
 
After all, who is going to do anything to some criminal child abductor who dresses up like a Rabbi? Or to the children's mother? Even if the children's mother is the one who is hurting her own children... Since when do women have a license to hurt and abuse their own children?
 
What I have learned and what I have seen and heard in these last few years since my children were abducted, is something that if you are lucky you should never have to go through in your life...
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: BrazilianForJustice on July 30, 2009, 05:01:35 PM
That video is horrific. What I heard there (couldn't look much) is that there is no law against it in the state of Guanuajato in Mexico (maybe Carlos could explain further). Of course, they show a "equivalent" US "case", these poor Mexicans.

I truly hope that Hatufim's children are not being physically abused. Although, they are obviously being psychologically so. The Chabad involvement is shocking, but not surprising. I got to visit with them in Crown Heights once and met with one Rabbi they sent down to São Paulo, a couple of times, while visiting my birthplace. I only met "senior" people though, so I don't know about their troops. The ones I met were very ingratiating people, but I felt they were really after me becoming a donor.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on January 10, 2010, 11:59:07 PM
Update on Case:
 
I was recently asked by 2 members of this forum for an update, here it is:
 
I am getting sporadic information that my children are being psychologically and emotionally abused.
 
Smadar Hameiry is now telling my children that their father has abandoned them, that their father does not want to see them ever again, and that their father does not love them. Needless to say, these statements are causing significant trauma to my children.
 
Also, Smadar Hameiry and her parents and brothers have reiterated that they have no intention whatsoever of letting me talk to my children ever again.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: Bill33 on January 11, 2010, 12:23:42 AM
I hope the news of David getting his Sean back is making your ex wife and her family less able to sleep at night.  I hope she comes to her senses, or you win a return order for your 3 kids.  This Chabad seems frankly weird, and evil.  I pray for your kids return.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: ProudDaddy on January 11, 2010, 06:13:20 AM
Quote from: hatufim.org;64888
Update on Case:
 
I was recently asked by 2 members of this forum for an update, here it is:
 
I am getting sporadic information that my children are being psychologically and emotionally abused.
 
Smadar Hameiry is now telling my children that their father has abandoned them, that their father does not want to see them ever again, and that their father does not love them. Needless to say, these statements are causing significant trauma to my children.
 
Also, Smadar Hameiry and her parents and brothers have reiterated that they have no intention whatsoever of letting me talk to my children ever again.
Where are your  children: Brazil or Israel?
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on January 11, 2010, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: Bill33;64890
I hope the news of David getting his Sean back is making your ex wife and her family less able to sleep at night. I hope she comes to her senses, or you win a return order for your 3 kids. This Chabad seems frankly weird, and evil. I pray for your kids return.

People who have been following my children's abduction case referred to Sean Goldman as "the other abducted child in Brazil". But they see that case as different because with the Sean Goldman case, his biological mother died, so it was more than obvious that Sean Goldman had to be immediately returned to his father. The fact that it took the Brazilian government such a long time to do it makes Brazil look really bad in the eyes of the world. Nevertheless, the return of Sean Goldman to the people who truly love him makes a legal precedent in Brazil that may influence other parental abduction cases in Brazil.
 
As for Chabad, in recent months I have had several contacts with people from Chabad in Florida, New York and Israel. I am also getting phone calls from people from Chabad once or twice every month. They say that Smadar Hameiry is crazy and that she abducted the children because she wanted to abduct the children and that Chabad had nothing to do with it. They say that the people from Chabad who assisted and are assisting Smadar Hameiry with the abduction are criminals who are acting on their own and do not reflect official Chabad policies. Nevertheless, even the people from Chabad who are contacting me have been unable to find even one Chabad "Rabbi" who is willing to help, or to even make a public statement that what the Chabad people involved are doing is wrong. Regular Rabbis simply say that Chabad "Rabbis" are not real Rabbis, that they are just criminals disguised as Rabbis.
 
And thank you for praying for my children, I believe this is the best thing that anyone can do for my children at this time. Thank you.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: hatufim.org on January 11, 2010, 10:26:53 AM
Quote from: ProudDaddy;64906
Where are your children: Brazil or Israel?

My children are still in Brazil. The Rabbis who are advising me appear to agree that the moment that my children are returned to Israel, they will officially not be considered as abducted children anymore.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: forthelost on October 31, 2011, 03:23:33 PM
Just got this from NCMEC.

Quote
Yehezkel Bordaty, Israel Bordaty & Yoshua Bordaty missing from Boca Raton, FL, has been recovered. Please discontinue dissemination of this poster. Your participation in this program has made a valuable contribution to this recovery.

Please remove and discard any posters on this case that you have placed in public view.

Thank you for your support.

Going to look for details now.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: M.Capestro on October 31, 2011, 09:13:33 PM
That's great news! Please let us know what you find. After 4.5 years, this dad's going to have a lot on his hands, helping these three little boys to heal.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: rduffiel on November 01, 2011, 06:55:09 AM
Congratulations.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: tweinstein on November 01, 2011, 07:59:08 PM
We can't yet give congratulations without knowing the details. The last I heard, Mr. Bordaty was living in Israel and trying to transfer his case from the US to the Israeli Central Authority. It's possible that NCMEC removed the children from their roles simply because they are no longer missing from the US.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: forthelost on November 01, 2011, 11:10:02 PM
If that was the case they would be listed as closed or restricted, not recovered. Of course there could be some mistake.
Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: wicasa on February 23, 2022, 03:36:30 PM
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Title: Re: I won my Hague case!!! Now what???
Post by: wicasa on March 04, 2022, 04:14:46 PM
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