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Goldman Forums => Main Forum (Goldman) => Topic started by: mgs2510 on June 02, 2009, 08:14:47 PM

Title: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: mgs2510 on June 02, 2009, 08:14:47 PM
Judge decide that Sean stays in Brazil.
O ministro Marco Aurélio, do Supremo Tribunal Federal, decidiu que o menino Sean Goldman deve ficar no Brasil. A decisão se deu na Arguição de Descumprimento de Preceito Fundamental 172 e suspende a eficácia da sentença do juiz da 16ª Vara Federal do Rio de Janeiro, que havia determinado que a criança fosse entregue até as 14h desta quarta-feira (3/6) ao seu pai biológico, o americano David Goldman.
Marco Aurélio afirma que concedeu a liminar para que a ADPF, apresentada pelo PP, não perdesse o objeto. O ministro não deu maiores detalhes de sua decisão. Disse apenas que foi manuscrita e incluída no processo.
A guarda de Sean Goldman está sendo disputada desde o final do ano passado pelo pai biológico e pelo padrasto, o advogado João Paulo Lins e Silva, que tinha a guarda provisória do garoto desde a morte da mãe dele. Em sua sentença, o juiz da 16ª Vara Federal determinou o "retorno imediato" de Sean para os EUA.
O menino Sean, de acordo com a sentença, teria ser entregue a Karen Andrade, funcionária do consulado americano no Rio de Janeiro, em no máximo 48 horas. Até lá, Sean deveria ser monitorado por agentes da Polícia Federal.
ADPF 172
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: mgs2510 on June 02, 2009, 08:16:17 PM
Minister Marcus Aurelius, the Supreme Court decided that the boy Sean Goldman should stay in Brazil. The decision was the accusation of breach of fundamental precept 172 and suspending the effectiveness of the decision of the judge of the 16th Federal do Rio de Janeiro, which had determined that the child was delivered by the 14h of this Wednesday (3 / 6) to his biological father, the American David Goldman.

Marcus Aurelius says that the injunction granted to the ADPF, by PP, not losing the object. The minister gave no details of its decision. He said only that it was handwritten and included in the process.

The custody of Sean Goldman is disputed since the end of last year by the biological father and stepfather, a lawyer João Paulo Lins e Silva, who had temporary custody of the boy since the death of his mother. In its ruling, the judge of the 16th Federal determined the "return" of Sean to the U.S..

The boy Sean, according to the verdict, would be delivered to Karen Andrade, an official of the U.S. consulate in Rio de Janeiro in the 48 hours. Until then, Sean should be monitored by agents of the Federal Police.

ADPF 172
 
 
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: lisacallenwood on June 02, 2009, 08:20:03 PM
Are you f-ing KIDDING me?? :cloud:
 
The justice system drags its feet with David's case for 5 stinking years and the Lies and Snakes pull this off??
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:20:29 PM
Are you funken serious???? I want to cry! Is this true??? Whats going on!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:21:36 PM
Why would the Supreme Court order this?  Is this true?  I thought it went somewhere else first.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: mgs2510 on June 02, 2009, 08:21:37 PM
Here is the website
http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-jun-02/supremo-decide-menino-sean-goldman-fica-brasil
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:22:13 PM
Now what?!??!!! This is bullshit! I want to scream! What is wrong with this judge? Did he get paid or something? Who in their right mind would do this! Poor poor David. I wish I could be there to hug him. I feel so sorry for that poor man.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: mgs2510 on June 02, 2009, 08:22:28 PM
And now it's on the frst page on Globo.com:cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:22:54 PM
Until I see this from a verified source I am discounting it.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: janelr on June 02, 2009, 08:23:13 PM
Please say no - I am going to cry!!!  Enough already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :madgo::madgo::madgo::mad2::mad2::mad2::burn::burn::burn:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:23:34 PM
What fools.  How could they do this and on what grounds?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jgiraldo on June 02, 2009, 08:23:55 PM
What does this mean?  This can not be happening!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:24:37 PM
Quote from: mgs2510;25103
Minister Marcus Aurelius, the Supreme Court decided that the boy Sean Goldman should stay in Brazil. The decision was the accusation of breach of fundamental precept 172 and suspending the effectiveness of the decision of the judge of the 16th Federal do Rio de Janeiro, which had determined that the child was delivered by the 14h of this Wednesday (3 / 6) to his biological father, the American David Goldman.

 
Marcus Aurelius says that the injunction granted to the ADPF, by PP, not losing the object. The minister gave no details of its decision. He said only that it was handwritten and included in the process.
[/LEFT]
 
 Please tell me this is a joke.................... ........
 
"Hand written"????  Who gets that kind of service?
 
This had better be a joke..................
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:26:07 PM
Mark...please say something. Did you know this?? Whats going on?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:26:12 PM
It's not even the judge that was looking at it.  Something is fishy here.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: janelr on June 02, 2009, 08:27:28 PM
If this is true then the U.S. government HAS to intervene on a more serious level!!!!  This is a freakin' sick joke!!!!!!!  I'm livid!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:27:33 PM
woooww, they didn´t appealed to the second instance, they filled a proceeding (ADPF) directly to the Supreme Court!!
 
I am not really surprised with this preliminary decision, the minister ordered Sean stay in Brasil until the court decides the proceeding.
 
I can not say more details about this maneuver, I only hope the Supreme Court decides it fast.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 08:28:20 PM
Blah, blah, blah! This is just another attempt by Bruna's family to save their asse(t)s. All this does is show the world once more that they don't give a crap about Sean's well being. This one will backfire
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:28:20 PM
Quote from: gail;25125
It's not even the judge that was looking at it. Something is fishy here.

Thats what I'm thinking.....
 
WHO posted this?
 
Hopefully, a troll......
 
Please tell me this is not the case......anyone?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:28:20 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25127
woooww, they didn´t appealed to the second instance, they filled a proceeding (ADPF) directly to the Supreme Court!!
 
I am not really surprised with this preliminary decision, the minister ordered Sean stay in Brasil until the court decides the proceeding.
 
I can not say more details about this maneuver, I only hope the Supreme Court decides it fast.
So what does this mean??? How long could it take?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:29:07 PM
Don't you think they will?  I mean they've got  a US Congressman over there right now, I would hope they would be done with this right away.  This is sick, they cannot take custody away from David.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 02, 2009, 08:29:43 PM
Can this case even be analyzed by the supreme court.  They better deny the case right away.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: lisacallenwood on June 02, 2009, 08:30:18 PM
I just saw a brief notice on Oglobo, too.
 
Yep....more skanky business going on. OMG...poor DAVID!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:31:07 PM
Quote from: Teena;25130
So what does this mean??? How long could it take?

an ordinary ADPF may take a year, but, as this is about Sean Goldman, maybe some weeks, I hope.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:31:38 PM
I think we all need to calm down and first make sure that this is accurate first and that it's actually official.  Mark or someone...please verify this is what's happening or not.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: mgs2510 on June 02, 2009, 08:32:02 PM
What is ADPF?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 02, 2009, 08:32:06 PM
http://www.app.com/article/20090602/NEWS/906020324

It's accurate..it's on oglobo too
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: MCD on June 02, 2009, 08:32:26 PM
Argüição de Descumprimento de Preceito Fundamental  ADPF

I did not get it well, but it looks like that is their right to make sure no constitutional laws were broken with the sentence.

I hope it backfires with Ms. Clinton going to Brazil and telling them off (I wish).
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: gail;25132
Don't you think they will? I mean they've got a US Congressman over there right now, I would hope they would be done with this right away. This is sick, they cannot take custody away from David.

I guess they can.......
 
They have done it 100 times so far........
 
Anything can happen in a country with a corrupt judicial system....that's how I feel.......
 
SOMEONE from the U.S. needs to be making calls RIGHT NOW saying "enough is enough" already.......
 
Are you kidding me?
 
Dave is getting the kind of treatment that those idiots DESERVE....Dave deserves Sean but gets THIS???????
 
Sorry, but thats how I feel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:33:03 PM
A year?  They had better get this done tonight, this is insane.  So a person can take your child and keep them for a year before Brazil decides you can take your child home?  I'm really angry.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:33:23 PM
Quote from: joey2051;25133
Can this case even be analyzed by the supreme court. They better deny the case right away.

this was tottaly unexpected to me, I believe they thought they wouldn´t take a chance at the second level and filled a proceeding directly to the Supreme Court.
 
Right now, I can not imagine wich arguments they used to fill an ADPF at the Supreme Court. Maybe the press release something about its content.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:33:37 PM
Just because it's on Globo doesn't mean it's fact!  They've shown before that they are more than capable of printing lies.  I can't believe this can actually happen!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: zaxmom on June 02, 2009, 08:34:09 PM
Is Chris Smith over there with David? Do we know positively?  Does David have GOOD support with him?????  :conf:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: chopchop on June 02, 2009, 08:34:32 PM
Okay, I have offically had it for today.  To much of an emotional rollercoaster ride (I can only imagine how David and family must feel).  I guess if your Brazilian you can get a court order on demand~~what bulls%$t!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathy on June 02, 2009, 08:34:42 PM
No really this is bullshit and someone better make this right ....I mean this family needs their a&&&& kick..Is this some sick joke!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:35:06 PM
Okay people, now what do we do?  I'm ready to fly to Brazil.  This needs to be plastered all over the news, what an abuse of justice.  I hope Dateline goes on and on about this and that everybody else picks it up as well.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: lisacallenwood on June 02, 2009, 08:35:08 PM
Actually it looks like in Brazil someone can take your child and keep them as long as they want if they've got the deep pockets. What a bunch of slime balls.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Feltian on June 02, 2009, 08:35:23 PM
That's too sad. I can't follow this anymore. If it is painful for ME, I imagine how David is feeling now. I'm so sorry David.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:35:54 PM
Quote from: Wendy;25138
I think we all need to calm down and first make sure that this is accurate first and that it's actually official. Mark or someone...please verify this is what's happening or not.

unfortunately it´s official:
 
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/processo/verProcessoAndamento.asp?numero=172&classe=ADPF&origem=AP&recurso=0&tipoJulgamento=M
 
they used a party to fill the ADPF, PP- Partido Progressista, I truly hope they used good arguments for a party can fill this ADPF in order to suspend that decision, otherwise I won´t consider Marco Aurelio my favourite Minister any more...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:36:17 PM
It should be denied.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:36:39 PM
Andre...OMG please tell me that this is not going to drag out!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:37:01 PM
Seriously! WHAT CAN WE DO??? MARK!!!! WHERE ARE YOU! I cannot just sit here and do NOTHING! Can we call someone???? We have to do SOMETHING! Should we blow up the phones at the White House? Enough is ENOUGH!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 08:37:21 PM
I have to apologize. I am usually a proper person, but I'm going to go out of character for a moment. WHO THE XXXX DO THEY THINK THEY ARE TO TOY THIS THE WELL BEING OF A CHILD!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:37:31 PM
Chris Smith is going to go nuts.  Just wait, there is going to be hell to pay for this one.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:38:12 PM
If they can decide in 24 hours to keep Sean in Brazil why can't they decide that quickly to send him home?!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:38:13 PM
THIS IS absolute BULLSHIT!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: janelr on June 02, 2009, 08:38:23 PM
Okay - that's it for me for tonight. :( I'm with chopchop and Feltian - I can't take it anymore - I can't imagine how David must feel.  I'm going to kiss my two little boys goodnight and pray that David gets to do the same in the immediate future!  Goodnight BSH.org friends - "see" you tomorrow to continue the fight.

J-
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 08:38:48 PM
Quote from: MCD;25141
Argüição de Descumprimento de Preceito Fundamental ADPF
 
I did not get it well, but it looks like that is their right to make sure no constitutional laws were broken with the sentence.
 
I hope it backfires with Ms. Clinton going to Brazil and telling them off (I wish).

This has nothing to do with constitutional laws. This is about the laws of the Hague. And they have been broken over and over again ever since Brazil "agreed" to them
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:39:07 PM
It´s on conjur, http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-jun-02/supremo-decide-menino-sean-goldman-fica-brasil
 
but the stf website didn´t said yet about the decision, but I think it´s true, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: MCD on June 02, 2009, 08:39:11 PM
OMG, The PP is a right wing party everyone decent hates ...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:39:11 PM
I'M SICK!!!!  I'M FURIOUS!!!  HOW CAN THEY DO THIS?!?! :cloud::cloud::cloud::cloud::cloud::cloud::cloud::cloud:
 
THIS IS A CHILD'S LIFE DAMNIT!!! SEND HIM HOME!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 08:39:23 PM
Quote from: gail;25125
It's not even the judge that was looking at it. Something is fishy here.

 What do we know about this Minister Marcus Aurelius. What are his connections to  Auntie Guta? I seem to remember a "friendship"  of Guta's with someone on HIGH levels.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 08:40:22 PM
Andre...can this drag out?!? Surely they will not allow this to go on!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:40:50 PM
It's time for Lula to step in and send Sean home and I hope all of the right people from our Government make all the necessary phone calls to make this happen.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:41:03 PM
Quote from: Audax;25163
This has nothing to do with constitutional laws. This is about the laws of the Hague. And they have been broken over and over again ever since Brazil "agreed" to them

that´s why i really want to know wich (constitutional) argument they used, if it really has some valid basis to origin an ADPF, it´s very strange to me right now without knowing more details.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: joey2051;25140
http://www.app.com/article/20090602/NEWS/906020324
 
It's accurate..it's on oglobo too

We need to BLAST  the news agencies. ALL OF THEM.
mobilize the people's voices, senators, congressmen.
THERE NEEDS TO BE A ROAR LIKE NEVER BEFORE HEARD.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
You see, something fishy is going on.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 02, 2009, 08:42:37 PM
Listen.  Everyone take a deep breath.  Instead of getting angry, creating negative thoughts and energy, calm yourselves and go to a positive place.  Pray for David & Sean, pray that the judges do the right thing.  
 
If any court rules against David, the U.S. Government WILL do something.  The world is now watching this.  As all of you know, the U.S. is not the only country that has an interest in what happens here.  The world will react and let Brazil have it with everything they can.  It will be brought up in the U.N. and other places.  Brazil will not get away with this.   Neither will the family.
 
Stay positive
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
I'm sure Congressman Smith is doing a great job of that, I can just imagine how pissed he is.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
Quote from: gail;25154
It should be denied.

It "should have been denied" a long time ago.........

This isn't "questionng the law" IMO, this is "changing" the law.......

I'm going to lose it...................no kidding
'
'
'
'
'
'
 
Ok, I'm back now and more composed.........

Who do we need to contact right now to show our OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: FC_Florida on June 02, 2009, 08:43:07 PM
I refuse to believe Sean will stay in Brazil. Maybe there's going to be an extension to the 48 hr. period. But he will come back with David, maybe by the end of the week or next week. Am I too optimistic?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: MCD on June 02, 2009, 08:43:18 PM
i am pretty sure they did not have any decent argument. it was their last "hand"to play. Let's stay calm and hope for the best. Brazil has enough good people to balance these other types.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:43:38 PM
Quote from: Wendy;25169
Andre...can this drag out?!? Surely they will not allow this to go on!

I don´t know much about the procedure that take place at the Supreme Court, but I think David´s attorney can fill an appeal to the Supreme Court´s President (Gilmar Mendes) or to the Plenário (all the full 11 Ministers) to decide the appeal.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Feltian on June 02, 2009, 08:44:35 PM
I can't express the HATE I am feeling right now!

Can someone do something with this stupid Dornelles????


http://www.pp.org.br/005/00502001.asp?ttCD_CHAVE=17322
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:44:38 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;25177
It "should have been denied" a long time ago.........

This isn't "questionng the law" IMO, this is "changing" the law.......

I'm going to lose it...................no kidding
'
'
'
'
'
'
 
Ok, I'm back now and more composed.........

Who do we need to contact right now to show our OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!

THATS WHAT IM SAYING! WHO do we contact??? we need to get on the horn people! We cannot let them get away with this!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;25177
It "should have been denied" a long time ago.........

This isn't "questionng the law" IMO, this is "changing" the law.......

I'm going to lose it...................no kidding
'
'
'
'
'
'
 
Ok, I'm back now and more composed.........

Who do we need to contact right now to show our OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!
This IS an outrage and I'm pissed off.  Excuse my language.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 08:45:56 PM
Quote from: gail;25143
A year? They had better get this done tonight, this is insane. So a person can take your child and keep them for a year before Brazil decides you can take your child home? I'm really angry.

Didn't they null and void the TEMPORARY CUSTODY? David HAS custody.
Does the order say he has to stay in Brazil, or that he has to stay with JP. Where is DCF, this boy has been abused mentally and it was proven in court. In U.S. DCF is more powerful than the IRS!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: chopchop on June 02, 2009, 08:46:27 PM
I'd like to know why in the hell the Supreme Court of Brazil would get involved in a Hague case?  And this only one day after the federal judge made his ruling public?  What a complete farce, legal rights are one thing but this is freakin ridiculous.....ok I'm done for today for sure~~David my heart goes out to you, your mother and father, stay strong we won't abandon you!!!
Brazil you should be ashamed!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:47:10 PM
Quote from: Teena;25159
If they can decide in 24 hours to keep Sean in Brazil why can't they decide that quickly to send him home?!

 
Exactly....Brazil just went form a country that was in question to a country that is totally corrupt and full of shit....

Congrats Prez Lula........

Enjoy getting turned down for every international post you ask for and the Olympics are toast.........

I'll NEVER buy another product from Brazil...no matter how this ends up.....
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Pepe on June 02, 2009, 08:47:25 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25144
this was tottaly unexpected to me... I can not imagine wich arguments they used to fill an ADPF at the Supreme Court ...

They are questioning the very fact that Brazil's could not have signed on to the hague treaty, as it would be unconstitutional. The following senator from Rio de Janeiro is behind this stupid new idea (... as every other argument they had was destroyed by judge Pinto).

Senator Francisco Dornelles
http://www.dornelles.com.br
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
I would say contact Hillary...she must go to the tv and express her discontent. This must get huuugee proportions at the press.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: Pepe;25189
They are questioning the very fact that Brazil's could not have signed on to the hague treaty, as it would be unconstitutional. The following senator from Rio de Janeiro is behind this stupid new idea (... as every other argument they had was destroyed by judge Pinto).
 
Senator Francisco Dornelles
http://www.dornelles.com.br
Whaaaaaaaaat??? Was it unconstitutional when the got ALL of their children back?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Amazee on June 02, 2009, 08:48:31 PM
I am praying about this.... right now.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Feltian on June 02, 2009, 08:49:27 PM
CCONTACT THE NEWS HILLARY OBAMA ANYONE PLEAASSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEE
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: DB4 on June 02, 2009, 08:49:37 PM
I am so upset by this!   What can we do to help???
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:50:34 PM
They have already signed it, they can question that after all the children are sent back that have already filed a Hague case.  I think most of the people here on BSH have better legal knowledge than half of those corrupt judges over there.  This makes me sick.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 08:51:11 PM
Hillary Clinton Dept of State
Main Switchboard:
202-647-4000

Lets call and express our outrage and DEMAND to know what she plans to do about it! David should not have to wait another minute!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:51:30 PM
Quote from: Pepe;25189
They are questioning the very fact that Brazil's could not have signed on to the hague treaty, as it would be unconstitutional. The following senator from Rio de Janeiro is behind this stupid new idea (... as every other argument they had was destroyed by judge Pinto).
 
Senator Francisco Dornelles
http://www.dornelles.com.br

maybe pepe, but this argument was used by the DEM party, when it filled an ADIN, another proceeding at the STF.
 
This ADPF was filled against the federal judge.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Pepe;25189
They are questioning the very fact that Brazil's could not have signed on to the hague treaty, as it would be unconstitutional. The following senator from Rio de Janeiro is behind this stupid new idea (... as every other argument they had was destroyed by judge Pinto).
 
Senator Francisco Dornelles
http://www.dornelles.com.br

What a bunch of bull. JPLS senior himself used the Hague in cases he defended and won. hyprocrite!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 02, 2009, 08:52:21 PM
I think i'm gonna throw up.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:52:29 PM
Quote from: Feltian;25195
CCONTACT THE NEWS HILLARY OBAMA ANYONE PLEAASSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEE

 
YUP!!!
And contact this moron.........and let him have it.........:cloud:

http://www.dornelles.com.br (http://www.dornelles.com.br/)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: mom914 on June 02, 2009, 08:52:40 PM
People need to calm down.  Everyone knew they would use every tactic they could to get his return delayed.

Think of it as a stay of execution...once he was out of the country they had no recourse.  Delaying his return doesn't mean the court will reverse the judge's decision, it just means they need time to examine the appeal.

Frankly, I think most of us would have been shocked if they allowed Sean to leave tomorrow, based on how long this has drug out already.

Keep the faith, and say prayers for Sean, David, and those involved!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: anna42 on June 02, 2009, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25190
I would say contact Hillary...she must go to the tv and express her discontent. This must get huuugee proportions at the press.

 
I am completely disgusted!  What is wrong with these flippin people!  I agree...we need to start expressing our disgust!  I am so angry now!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 08:54:32 PM
Quote from: mom914;25204
People need to calm down. Everyone knew they would use every tactic they could to get his return delayed.
 
Think of it as a stay of execution...once he was out of the country they had no recourse. Delaying his return doesn't mean the court will reverse the judge's decision, it just means they need time to examine the appeal.
 
Frankly, I think most of us would have been shocked if they allowed Sean to leave tomorrow, based on how long this has drug out already.
 
Keep the faith, and say prayers for Sean, David, and those involved!

I think you actually calmed me down.......

Thanks Mom.......My mom used to be able to do thae same thing.....

But good grief, how much more do you think Dave can take?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JonathanR on June 02, 2009, 08:54:49 PM
Quote from: FC_Florida;25178
I refuse to believe Sean will stay in Brazil. Maybe there's going to be an extension to the 48 hr. period. But he will come back with David, maybe by the end of the week or next week. Am I too optimistic?

i just had a great dinner and now want to PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE say this is a publicity stunt!!!! Lukie, Bob, SOMEBODY!!!!! CHIME IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 08:54:53 PM
actually, deciding Sean must stay in Brasil until the judgement of the appeal/ADPF it´s not (legally) wrong, BUT, now that they stopped the effects of that judge´s decision, they must decide it fast, FAST, as this can not take any longer. It must be sayed to the press, Hilarry, Obama, Lula, wathever, they must demmands STF a fast judgement.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: DB4 on June 02, 2009, 08:55:21 PM
Can any of the legal folks here explain what happened here?  What did they do?  I just don't understand --- everyone seemed confident last night.
 
This is so complicated and frustrating!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 08:56:38 PM
Andre, I want you to go strangle that judge.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: anna42 on June 02, 2009, 08:57:10 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25211
actually, deciding Sean must stay in Brasil until the judgement of the appeal/ADPF it´s not (legally) wrong, BUT, now that they stopped the effects of that judge´s decision, they must decide it fast, FAST, as this can not take any longer. It must be sayed to the press, Hilarry, Obama, Lula, wathever, they must demmands STF a fast judgement.

 
I am confused...who has more power...Federal Court or Supreme Court?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: janelr on June 02, 2009, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: mom914;25204
People need to calm down.  Everyone knew they would use every tactic they could to get his return delayed.

Think of it as a stay of execution...once he was out of the country they had no recourse.  Delaying his return doesn't mean the court will reverse the judge's decision, it just means they need time to examine the appeal.

Frankly, I think most of us would have been shocked if they allowed Sean to leave tomorrow, based on how long this has drug out already.

Keep the faith, and say prayers for Sean, David, and those involved!

Thanks Mom914 - I guess you're right.  Your words did have a calming effect on me but keep in mind that a bunch of us on this forum have been here since before there was a 'forum'.  We were blogging so much that Bob created a 'forum' for us to be able to effectively communicate.  It is so frustrating for all of us so I cannot even begin to imagine what David feels.
Oh well, thanks again for your calm words.  
I'm really gonna try and sign off this time.  Goodnight all.
J-
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SWEET72 on June 02, 2009, 09:00:39 PM
http://contact-us.state.gov/cgi-bin/state.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_sid=_O6H9ozj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD0xMTcsMTE3JnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**
 
To email Hilary...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Michele on June 02, 2009, 09:01:02 PM
Breath deep.  Maybe this is just posturing - placating - appeasing the public.....to show support...whether it is with or without merit.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:01:06 PM
Quote from: anna42;25215
I am confused...who has more power...Federal Court or Supreme Court?

the Supreme Court, in theory, if it has attribution to analyse it, Minister Marco Aurelio understood he has attribution, the type of proceeding is right...so...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:01:36 PM
Quote from: SWEET72;25217
http://contact-us.state.gov/cgi-bin/state.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_sid=_O6H9ozj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD0xMTcsMTE3JnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**
 
To email Hilary...
She doesn't get the emails for weeks! Seriously people....we need to CALL her.
 
Main Switchboard:
202-647-4000
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ChristineS on June 02, 2009, 09:02:05 PM
I don't feel the panic like others posting here.  Sean will come home, but not without more drama and agony for David and all at BSH.
 
This case is at the highest possible level in our government, and we are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA for crying out loud!!!! Our government will not leave Sean behind, especially after such a solid and 'perfect' report from the Brazilian federal judge.  Secretary of State Clinton and Chris Smith would NEVER let Brazil get away with such an atrocity as keeping Sean much longer.
 
Let's see how the next 24 plays out.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:02:18 PM
Anyway, I truly believe in the end off all this Sean will return, I only hope as fast as possible.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 09:02:32 PM
ANDRE!!!! HOW LONG!!?!??!!  How long will this take??!?!?!?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JonathanR on June 02, 2009, 09:02:46 PM
if this gets held up any longer, all hell is going to break loose. and this time it will. it's all over the media that sean's coming home and then to go and revoke it or whatever they're calling it is going to fall on deaf ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
hillary, obama, chris - KICK THEIR ARSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:02:46 PM
Quote from: Michele;25218
Breath deep. Maybe this is just posturing - placating - appeasing the public.....to show support...whether it is with or without merit.
They have been placating the dark side for far to long now. Its Davids turn to get a break.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:02:54 PM
Quote from: Audax;25200
What a bunch of bull. JPLS senior himself used the Hague in cases he defended and won. hyprocrite!!!!

WHERE IS THE HABEAS CORPUS!!! HILLARY, BILL, WHERE IS THE HABEAS!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: anna42 on June 02, 2009, 09:03:42 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25219
the Supreme Court, in theory, if it has attribution to analyse it, Minister Marco Aurelio understood he has attribution, the type of proceeding is right...so...

So...we need to contact Clinton, Obama, Lula and media...we need to be heard...only louder...!!!
 
I honestly do not know how these people sleep at night with their terrible actions!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 02, 2009, 09:04:06 PM
DO NOT CONTACT DONNELLE!!!!  
 
YOU ARE PLAYING INTO THE HANDS OF THE FAMILY.
 
STOP!  THINK!  PRAY!
 
Sean will come back!  This is Brazil, not the U.S. we're talking about here.  It's their game, but they will not win.  I'm sure SOS Clinton already knows, as well as the President.  They will not let this stay, but they also know that this game has to play out before they can force their hand.
 
You know that we Americans are Pitbulls.  When there is an injustice done against anyone of us, we grab on and do not let go.  Brazil has not learned that yet, but they will.  Brazilians tend to forget things quickly.  They don't fight for justice the way we do.  Andre can testify to that.  And Andre, I don't mean that to berate Brazilians at all.  The Brazilian people are great, but the government at all levels is corruptable.  But this is too much of a political hot potatoe for the Brazilians not to do what is right and it will not take years, months or even weeks.  The world will pressure Brazil and this will end very soon.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 02, 2009, 09:04:41 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25167
What do we know about this Minister Marcus Aurelius. What are his connections to  Auntie Guta? I seem to remember a "friendship"  of Guta's with someone on HIGH levels.


Based on his name i'd say he's a pretentious bastárd.  Marcus Aurelius?  Really?!  He's named after the Roman Emperor philosopher?   I mean.. I'm sure he's really a great guy once you get past his name and the whole suspension of the return order thing... :burn:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 09:06:13 PM
I just sent an email to both Hillary Clinton and President Obama requesting their help
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Michele on June 02, 2009, 09:06:22 PM
The world is watching with the coverage by every major news network.  I'm sure SOS Clinton knows already.  Christine I agree....we need 24 hours for it to play out.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:06:53 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25227
WHERE IS THE HABIUS CORPUS!!! HILLARY, BILL, WHERE IS THE HABIUS!!!!!
Thats what I have been wondering for a LONG time!:clapping::clapping:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:07:42 PM
Quote from: Wendy;25224
ANDRE!!!! HOW LONG!!?!??!! How long will this take??!?!?!?

 
right now I can not suppose anything, maybe tomorrow or the next days with more info from the press...I hope it takes some weeks...i hope...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 09:07:58 PM
Quote from: ChristineS;25222
I don't feel the panic like others posting here. Sean will come home, but not without more drama and agony for David and all at BSH.
 
This case is at the highest possible level in our government, and we are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA for crying out loud!!!! Our government will not leave Sean behind, especially after such a solid and 'perfect' report from the Brazilian federal judge. Secretary of State Clinton and Chris Smith would NEVER let Brazil get away with such an atrocity as keeping Sean much longer.
 
Let's see how the next 24 plays out.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 09:08:11 PM
Ok...I'm going to breath....deep...deep breaths....and calm down....deep breathing....we HAD to expect this and should not be upset or surprised....that's just playing into the dark sides hands.  I am done being upset and i'm going back to my original thoughts and that is...i will ONLY celebrate when Sean is on that damn plane!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: FC_Florida on June 02, 2009, 09:08:31 PM
Quote from: JonathanR;25210
i just had a great dinner and now want to PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE say this is a publicity stunt!!!! Lukie, Bob, SOMEBODY!!!!! CHIME IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We knew they were capable of pulling a stunt like this. We just need to calm down and focus.
Sean will come back with David.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Michele on June 02, 2009, 09:08:42 PM
Quote from: Teena;25226
They have been placating the dark side for far to long now. Its Davids turn to get a break.

 
I totally agree with you...as usual.  BUT, this could be a whole lot of nothing which is being made into something.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Audax;25237
I wish I could be as optimistic as you

 
I am really confident Sean will return, the problem is how long it will take, I hope some weeks, but it may take some months...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: zaxmom on June 02, 2009, 09:09:50 PM
They did this within 24 hours...I would like to see how the next 24-48 hours turn out for us. I pray this can turn around just as quickly.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: cathlabnurse on June 02, 2009, 09:10:33 PM
I need to sign off for now i can not take this anymore, i will keep praying.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 02, 2009, 09:10:35 PM
I'm thinking this was planned all along....this judge was paid off like the rest of them....OMG poor David ....Something has to happen NOW! War on Brazil!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:12:15 PM
Quote from: zaxmom;25242
They did this within 24 hours...I would like to see how the next 24-48 hours turn out for us. I pray this can turn around just as quickly.
Thats what Im sayin'! If they can decide in 24 hours he should stay...they can decide in 24 hours he should return. Get on the ball Brazil!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JonathanR on June 02, 2009, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: FC_Florida;25239
We knew they were capable of pulling a stunt like this. We just need to calm down and focus.
Sean will come back with David.

I'm a LITTLE bit calmer since reading that the "stay in Brazil" was in regards to the appeal. THAT I can handle.
 
everybody say a prayer. good always prevails. :yeahthat:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dana on June 02, 2009, 09:13:52 PM
can this decision be reversed?  JPLS has no legal ties to Sean.... I just don't get why the judges are playing this.  I'm soooooo disappointed.  I feel REALLY awful for David, actually there are no words to describe how he must be feeling.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:14:36 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25241
I am really confident Sean will return, the problem is how long it will take, I hope some weeks, but it may take some months...
There is no way the US is going to sit and let them play their flipin games for more than a week.  No way are we going to let them take months.  They are screwing with the wrong country.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: Teena;25198
Hillary Clinton Dept of State
Main Switchboard:
202-647-4000
 
Lets call and express our outrage and DEMAND to know what she plans to do about it! David should not have to wait another minute!

I called. lots of choices. I chose stay on the line.I left a message for HILLARY, Doubt she'll get it, It's a general message machine for "The State Dept"..I said, GET A HABEAS CORPUS, GET THAT KID OUT OF THERE!!!!..another choice is #6 don't chose that one, it just takes you back to the beginning.
 
What about the "child abduction" choice.........or is that for reporting NEW child abductions.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:16:28 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25199
maybe pepe, but this argument was used by the DEM party, when it filled an ADIN, another proceeding at the STF.
 
This ADPF was filled against the federal judge.

That was their ace in the hole. They planned this constitutional questioning. They are the ones who thunk it up
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: gail;25251
There is no way the US is going to sit and let them play their flipin games for more than a week. No way are we going to let them take months. They are screwing with the wrong country.
Yea really! This is bull. David just spent money on a plane ticket. Is he supposed to keep flying back and forth? Is he supposed to shack up in costly hotel rooms while the creeps picket outside his door?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: tweinstein on June 02, 2009, 09:17:20 PM
Right now, I see in my mind 50 greedy, unethical lawyers following this case and taking notes, plotting their legal strategies against the rest of us LBPs.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:17:43 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25252
I called. lots of choices. I chose stay on the line.I left a message for HILLARY, Doubt she'll get it, It's a general message machine for "The State Dept"..I said, GET A HABEAS CORPUS, GET THAT KID OUT OF THERE!!!!..another choice is #6 don't chose that one, it just takes you back to the beginning.
 
What about the "child abduction" choice.........or is that for reporting NEW child abductions.
I don't know?? I didn't call yet. I assumed they were closed until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:18:39 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25252
I called. lots of choices. I chose stay on the line.I left a message for HILLARY, Doubt she'll get it, It's a general message machine for "The State Dept"..I said, GET A HABEAS CORPUS, GET THAT KID OUT OF THERE!!!!..another choice is #6 don't chose that one, it just takes you back to the beginning.
 
What about the "child abduction" choice.........or is that for reporting NEW child abductions.
Sashia, your so funny...at least you can put a smile on my face in a time of crises.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 09:19:14 PM
Quote from: Teena;25258
I don't know?? I didn't call yet. I assumed they were closed until tomorrow.

I agree, I will call during business hours tomorrow!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: DB4 on June 02, 2009, 09:19:14 PM
Rep Smith is going to be furious when he arrives.  Rep Smith - please bring Sean home!  Please stay there as long as you need to and help bring this to closure.  We need you!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:21:06 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;25256
Right now, I see in my mind 50 greedy, unethical lawyers following this case and taking notes, plotting their legal strategies against the rest of us LBPs.
Don't you think Congressman Smith is making phone calls and causing problems for Brazil?  Don't you think our country will get this thing done?  If anything, it's making Brazil look worse at abiding by the Hague and denying you LBP your rights.  I'm so mad I can't type.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25227
WHERE IS THE HABIUS CORPUS!!! HILLARY, BILL, WHERE IS THE HABIUS!!!!!
I discovered when I got a US Passport for my daughter this year that the US government cannot act as legal surrogate for citizens... or something like that.  They cannot bring a case like this; it needs to come from David's legal team.

Quote from: Teena;25248
Thats what Im sayin'! If they can decide in 24 hours he should stay...they can decide in 24 hours he should return. Get on the ball Brazil!
No kidding.  How long does it take to read an 80-page airtight legal decision?

My original thoughts before posting were about to put me in very bad stead with some Brazilians for whom I have come to have great affection.  I'm glad for those who have posted that we need to wait and see how it plays out in the next 24-48 hours.  We knew a stay was a possibility.  Let's keep our heads.

(if things don't happen quickly and to our satisfaction, though... watch out)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:24:51 PM
I'm trying Chuck, but this makes me so angry.  The nerve of someone keeping your child from you?  Paying off judges?  I hope things will turn around tomorrow and I hope Chris Smith shakes the country.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:25:50 PM
Quote from: gail;25262
Don't you think Congressman Smith is making phone calls and causing problems for Brazil? Don't you think our country will get this thing done? If anything, it's making Brazil look worse at abiding by the Hague and denying you LBP your rights. I'm so mad I can't type.

When Sean gets home, I'm even more determined to get these other kids out of there. I want to give these pompus idiots in Brazil so much BOOT, they'll think they're Italy!!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:26:02 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25264
.
 
(if things don't happen quickly and to our satisfaction, though... watch out)
Yea I can read the fine print ;) Now that is what Im talkin' about! WATCH OUT!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 09:26:14 PM
Quote from: gail;25266
I'm trying Chuck, but this makes me so angry.  The nerve of someone keeping your child from you?  Paying off judges?  I hope things will turn around tomorrow and I hope Chris Smith shakes the country.
I'm right there with ya.  I burned dinner, burned my hand, yelled at the kids and bit through my lip in the last hour.
:cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:27:47 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25264
I discovered when I got a US Passport for my daughter this year that the US government cannot act as legal surrogate for citizens... or something like that. They cannot bring a case like this; it needs to come from David's legal team.
 
No kidding. How long does it take to read an 80-page airtight legal decision?
 
My original thoughts before posting were about to put me in very bad stead with some Brazilians for whom I have come to have great affection. I'm glad for those who have posted that we need to wait and see how it plays out in the next 24-48 hours. We knew a stay was a possibility. Let's keep our heads.
 
(if things don't happen quickly and to our satisfaction, though... watch out)

reading those 80 pages I did it in less than an hour, but, the Minister don´t need, necessarily, to read that decision to decides Sean must stay in the country until the Supreme Court decides the ADPF.
 
a first level judge ordering the imediate return is a very audacious move, but also very likely to be modified in order to don´t make a supposed well-susceful appeal from JPLS worthless.
 
In the end I really believe Sean will return.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: rankfussa on June 02, 2009, 09:27:55 PM
Peaple,
Welcome to real Brazil.

Here in Brazil, all people who have money, can do absolutely anything they want with the Brazilian justice. Just need pay for this.

 This case is no different.

 Do not be surprise if this process don't have a quicky end.
 Here in Brazil, justice is very corrupt. Unfortunately.
 Judges, are all subject to corruption.

Here, people who kill, steal, and have already been tried and convicted, can be more than 10 years outside of prison, doing the same thing that the bandit brazilian stepfather are doing:
Add resources, and more resources in the process only to postpone the final decision.

 Therefore, to extend for a long time any decision of justice.
 And that makes the Sean, do not go to the U.S. with his real father.

 I hope that justice Brazilian, has ashamed of herself, and do something quickly. At least once in life.

 Brazil is a beautiful country we have a lot to be proud of.
 Unfortunately, the Brazilian justice and Brazilian politics is as dirty, when a private road.

Sorry about the english (translate by software).
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25219
the Supreme Court, in theory, if it has attribution to analyse it, Minister Marco Aurelio understood he has attribution, the type of proceeding is right...so...

How was JPLS able to go straight to the supreme court!?!! Is that normal procedure? Ugh....I cannot even type write now my hands are shaking. Please David don't lose hope....
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:28:03 PM
Quote from: Teena;25269
Yea I can read the fine print ;) Now that is what Im talkin' about! WATCH OUT!
I didn't notice the fine print...watch out is right.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 09:28:17 PM
All I can say is if Sean isn't home by the time I get my passport done...WATCH OUT!!!!!!  I swear I'm going to head down there and bring him home myself!! Enough is ENOUGH already!!  
 
I know, I know...I said I'd calm down...but I feel like I'm gonna barf!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 02, 2009, 09:29:27 PM
Let's keep positive-we need more facts. I think this is not the end of the tunnel, just a delay. They are just pathetically trying every ridiculous thing they can.
 
Motion against the judge? We need to understand more of what's going on before getting so desperate. That PP (party) is a joke.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:30:10 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25270
I'm right there with ya. I burned dinner, burned my hand, yelled at the kids and bit through my lip in the last hour.
:cloud:
I kept throwing mine on the floor.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: gail;25274
I didn't notice the fine print...watch out is right.

What fine print are you referring to?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:32:03 PM
Grace, what do you mean?  How long will it likely be delayed?  And doesn't David have custody of Sean?  Didn't the judge say that?  Under Brazilian law?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:32:44 PM
Quote from: Audax;25281
What fine print are you referring to?
You have to go back to Chuckles comment and at the very bottom there is fine print :)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: finn on June 02, 2009, 09:33:06 PM
Quote from: tweinstein;25256
Right now, I see in my mind 50 greedy, unethical lawyers following this case and taking notes, plotting their legal strategies against the rest of us LBPs.

 
That's an interesting perspective, one that I guess a LBP would observe.  It made me kind of sad reading your comment, because I guess that's the glass 1/2 empty that the LBPs have had to get used to in dealing with the justice system:(
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 09:33:33 PM
what are all these initials....ADPF, PP?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 02, 2009, 09:33:33 PM
Nothing out there on the US newslines that I can find.  Just a recently updated (1 hour ago) story titled "NJ father in Brazil to reclaim custody of son".
 
Apparently MSN thinks it more important to tell us about a body being "shortened" for a coffin.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25273
How was JPLS able to go straight to the supreme court!?!! Is that normal procedure? Ugh....I cannot even type write now my hands are shaking. Please David don't lose hope....

I would never expect such maneuver, but, theoretically, they can, if they use the right kind of procedure and the right arguments, they can. I am really curious to know what arguments they used, I only have some idea...
 
a positive thing is this judgement from the STF maybe the last we all have to see, but we need to know more details if it´s really going to be the last judgement.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jo Thompson on June 02, 2009, 09:34:03 PM
I am about to puke... I can't believe in this shssssssssssst.
Dos not matter if Sean is an American, Brazilian or Chinese. He belongs to his father and that is all.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:34:38 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25264
I discovered when I got a US Passport for my daughter this year that the US government cannot act as legal surrogate for citizens... or something like that. They cannot bring a case like this; it needs to come from David's legal team.
 
Didn't they use the Habeas to get those 2 pilots out of there?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:35:39 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;25286
Nothing out there on the US newslines that I can find. Just a recently updated (1 hour ago) story titled "NJ father in Brazil to reclaim custody of son".
 
Apparently MSN thinks it more important to tell us about a body being "shortened" for a coffin.
What?  I never heard of any body being shortened, lol.  That takes the cake.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25287
I would never expect such maneuver, but, theoretically, they can, if they use the right kind of procedure and the right arguments, they can. I am really curious to know what arguments they used, I only have some idea...
 
a positive thing is this judgement from the STF maybe the last we all have to see, but we need to know more details if it´s really going to be the last judgement.

I am sorry but what does STF mean?  I am worried that there is corruption involved here and that is why they went straight to the supreme court, where they have a buddy or two.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: DB4 on June 02, 2009, 09:37:17 PM
Andre - can you summarize what they are doing in layman's terms?   I'm still a bit confused on what has happened?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: liesl78 on June 02, 2009, 09:37:47 PM
EvaDC called me to tell me what happened. I had just gotten home from work and was tucking my son into bed. This is so outrageous, I guess money buys anything after all...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: LDJVR on June 02, 2009, 09:38:01 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25267
When Sean gets home, I'm even more determined to get these other kids out of there. I want to give these pompus idiots in Brazil so much BOOT, they'll think they're Italy!!!!!!

 
AMEN TO THAT!! :lynchmob:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Rio Gringa on June 02, 2009, 09:38:06 PM
My suspicion, based on Tostes previous (paid) rants, is that they're arguing that by law, Sean is a "born" Brazilian citizen and therefore cannot be "deported" based on the ruling.

Something you also have to understand is how easily people in government are paid off in Brazil, be it with money or perks or favors. I doubt the judge actually believes the merits of the appeal, and you can guarantee that there is a troca (trade) of some sort going on.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 02, 2009, 09:38:11 PM
Of course he's going to be home at some point, that is not what matters.  What matters is now, what is he going to have to go through 3 more years of this...that is bs and everyone knows it.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 09:39:27 PM
Quote from: liesl78;25295
EvaDC called me to tell me what happened. I had just gotten home from work and was tucking my son into bed. This is so outrageous, I guess money buys anything after all...

It does not buy love though. And right now all Bruna's family is doing is sowing seeds of hate that Sean will have against them once he's older and sees what REALLY happened.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:39:49 PM
Quote from: gail;25280
I kept throwing mine on the floor.
The dog ate mine while I was on the phone Proselytizing to Hillary.
Ah, I wasn't hungry anyway.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:39:54 PM
I don't know how Brazil can keep a child away from his only living parent, I don't care who they pay off, they wouldn't be able to justify this one.  They don't want to do this, the United States is now involved and they are making fools of themselves.  And making the wrong people angry.  A UN seat?  Don't think so.  Olympics?  Don't think so.  Lula needs to step in and send him home tomorrow as planned.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 09:40:05 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25293
I am sorry but what does STF mean?  I am worried that there is corruption involved here and that is why they went straight to the supreme court, where they have a buddy or two.

"STF" should be followed by a "U" and directed at these hideous kidnappers pronto.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:40:26 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25293
I am sorry but what does STF mean? I am worried that there is corruption involved here and that is why they went straight to the supreme court, where they have a buddy or two.

Supremo Tribunal Federal, the brazilian Supreme Court, the last level. It´s very higly unlikely corruption occurring there, those minister are on the top of their careers, they have everything, they don´t need to risk their reputation because of some illegality.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:40:49 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25300
The dog ate mine while I was on the phone Proselytizing to Hillary.
Ah, I wasn't hungry anyway.
LOL
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 09:41:08 PM
Quote from: gail;25292
What? I never heard of any body being shortened, lol. That takes the cake.

 
 
Gail Thank You for making me laugh! Because right now i am soooo pissed! :cloud::madgo::mad2:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:41:23 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25302
"STF" should be followed by a "U" and directed at these hideous kidnappers pronto.
LOL
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: anna42 on June 02, 2009, 09:42:26 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25303
Supremo Tribunal Federal, the brazilian Supreme Court, the last level. It´s very higly unlikely corruption occurring there, those minister are on the top of their careers, they have everything, they don´t need to risk their reputation because of some illegality.

Then why aren't they following the law...!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 09:42:38 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25303
Supremo Tribunal Federal, the brazilian Supreme Court, the last level. It´s very higly unlikely corruption occurring there, those minister are on the top of their careers, they have everything, they don´t need to risk their reputation because of some illegality.

 
 
REALLY! I will reserved the rest of my comment!:mad2:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 09:42:50 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25302
"STF" should be followed by a "U" and directed at these hideous kidnappers pronto.
OMG! ROFLMBO!!!!!!!!! Chuckles...I swear you crack me up every time!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:42:53 PM
I thougt Brazil law states that the only living parent automatically gets custody if the other dies?  That is what the judge stated and said it was Brazilian law.....so why can't David go get his son, now?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:43:35 PM
David and Sean can sit in a hotel room together until the judge rules.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Odete on June 02, 2009, 09:43:59 PM
I'm so mad.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 02, 2009, 09:44:01 PM
Quote from: Aida;25309
REALLY! I will reserved the rest of my comment!:mad2:
Ditto thaT!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:44:34 PM
Quote from: Aida;25309
REALLY! I will reserved the rest of my comment!:mad2:
I know, I'm right there with you.  Although maybe it was Roger that said it wasn't as bad at that level?  I don't remember, but I don't trust any of those idiots.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 02, 2009, 09:44:39 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25302
"STF" should be followed by a "U" and directed at these hideous kidnappers pronto.


lol.. exactly.. the STF's response to the appeal should have been STFU
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:45:34 PM
and I am not really surprise with that preliminary decision, I just didn´t expect it was coming from the Supreme Court.
 
legally speaking, there is no wrong ordering Sean stay in the country until the decides finally the ADPF. It´s not a kind of decision that needs corruption to be made. Any honest judge could do the same as the Law permit/demmands it. In deep, it´s a matter of interpretation, the federal jude from 16ª Vara his interpretation was Sean must return immediately to USA, but others judges can easily understand he can not return if there is an appeal to be judged.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:45:36 PM
What do you make of this Carlos?  Is the Supreme Court paid off by these snakes?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathy on June 02, 2009, 09:46:08 PM
Andre, I hope you are right I also hope that none of them are corrupted to make the wrong decision..This just needs to end ...I'm sick to my stomache literally and hope to wake up to some really good news and Wendy you are so right by holding back the victory so soon...Good nite
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:46:22 PM
Quote from: Audax;25299
It does not buy love though. And right now all Bruna's family is doing is sowing seeds of hate that Sean will have against them once he's older and sees what REALLY happened.

They must think that because they have his ear right now, and they are exclusively able to fill him with terrifying thoughts about what it was like, and what it would be like to live with his father, that he'll NEVER question THEIR vesion. But they HAVE to be true sociopaths to believe that Sean won't find out every bit of trouble they caused and BELIEVE 5 MILLION accounts on the internet, newspapers, legal documents etc.  ALL the lies, even the judge called him a liar.(ha ha I spelt it right lol). Only a sociopath, who believes their own distorted reality would keep this up.
NO CONCERN FOR SEAN.  A 9 year old may not understand, but a 14 y/o and a 16 y/o and a 20 y/o will grasp the evilness of what they are doing.
 
They haven't reaped what they've sown YET, but God strike me, I HOPE THEY DO
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:46:36 PM
What about the fact that David gets immediate custody according to Brazil law??
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
becareful on difaming STF, it was not exactlly STF who made these preliminary decision, it was Minister Marco Aurelio, maybe all the rest 10 Ministers may decide Sean must live with David.
 
and, legally speakin, there is no wrong about Marco Aurelio´s decision.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:48:31 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25331
becareful on difaming STF, it was not exactlly STF who made those preliminary decision, it was Minister Marco Aurelio, maybe all the rest 10 Minister may decide Sean must live with David.
Andre, what about Brazil law stating David gets immediate custody?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: chicybaby on June 02, 2009, 09:48:36 PM
I also agree something like this was expected. Sean will come home maybe not as soon as we all wish.
 
:wallbash::wallbash:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 09:50:14 PM
Quote from: gail;25301
I don't know how Brazil can keep a child away from his only living parent, I don't care who they pay off, they wouldn't be able to justify this one. They don't want to do this, the United States is now involved and they are making fools of themselves. And making the wrong people angry. A UN seat? Don't think so. Olympics? Don't think so. Lula needs to step in and send him home tomorrow as planned.

 
And Nobel Prize for Lula HMMMMMM i don't think so. :mad2:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: zaxmom on June 02, 2009, 09:50:54 PM
Andre..During this delay       CAN David be with HIS son???????  He should be able to!!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 09:51:08 PM
Quote from: gail;25327
What about the fact that David gets immediate custody according to Brazil law??

Interesting question. How about David gets custody and stays in Brazil until a final decision has been made. That way Bruna's family won't be able to poison Sean and David's relationship any further and they (David and Sean) can start rebuilding it.

Mark, Bob, anyone....!!! Where are you? We need your input!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 09:51:59 PM
Supremo Tribunal Federal, the brazilian Supreme Court, the last level. It´s very higly unlikely corruption occurring there, those minister are on the top of their careers, they have everything, they don´t need to risk their reputation because of some illegality.
 
I hope you are right about that but there are some people that can be bought no matter how successfull they are (sometimes that is how they get to the top of their careers).
 
So if I understand correctly JPLS went straight to the STF and was able to get a judge to allow him more time to appeal and that is why Sean is not going home tomorrow? Does the first judge order still stand but the STF is giving JPLS time to appeal it?
 
Sorry to keep bothering you with questions but I am just trying to understand what the heck is going on.
-Chrissy
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:53:37 PM
Quote from: gail;25334
Andre, what about Brazil law stating David gets immediate custody?

it was the understanding of the 16ª Vara federal judge, not exactly the law, it was the federal judge decision, wich can be appealed.
 
Quote from: zaxmom;25339
Andre..During this delay CAN David be with HIS son??????? He should be able to!!!!!

of course, since february´s decision he can see Sean at any time.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 09:53:50 PM
Guys, I just wanna clue you in on some aspects of this Supreme Court proceeding.

STF stands for "Supremo Tribunal Federal", the Federal Supreme Court.

Justice Marco Aurelio is a very controversial Supreme Court Justice because he tends to go against the flow and actually seems to enjoy such controversy. But he is serious, and not corrupt. We are talking about the Supreme Court here: corruption just does not happen at this highest level.

However, Justices do make political rulings, and Justice Marco Aurelio is the premier Justice handing out political rulings.

The actual court proceeding was filed by a small party called Progressive Party -this means Senator Francisco Dornelles' party. For those of you who's been watching the case, Senator Dornelles has been very vocal and actively involved in keeping Sean with the Lins e Silva and the Ribeiros. He's been in radical conservative politics for decades and belongs to the same social circles as the Lins e Silva and the Ribeiros. People like the Lins e Silva and the Ribeiros are thus his core constituency, and he is a very dependable senator for such people.

The LeS and Ribeiros will certainly try to drag this on for weeks and months and years if they can. Nonetheless, they are now toying with the Supreme Court on constitutional law grounds. I have all the reason to believe that the case will have a serious review by Marco Aurelio's colleagues. I just don't know how long this will take.

One final note: President Lula does influence the Supreme Court justices, but only up to a point. He appointed almost all of the current Justices, since many former ones retired during his two terms in office. With diplomatic pressure, President Lula may be tempted to interfere behind the scenes and quietly require a speedy review of Marco Aurelio's decision.

We all just need to cope with it and hope for the a quick review and overrule by the panel. We've got to understand that this is a court proceeding, and dissent and controversial rulings are part of court proceedings.

I hope to have helped a little in this time of distress.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:54:25 PM
That's what I want to know.  That would mean David gets Sean tomorrow by 2, they just cannot leave Brazil?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:54:51 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25343
it was the understanding of the 16ª Vara federal judge, not exactly the law, it was the federal judge decision, wich can be appealed.
 
 
 
of course, since february´s decision he can see Sean at any time.
He said it was Brazil law.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: mfer on June 02, 2009, 09:55:15 PM
WOW well I won't type my initial reaction - it would get edited by Teena or Chuckles heehee.  I will sit back & hope in the next few hours we will have some more info & that these shenanigans will be over in the next couple days & Sean will be returning w/ David.  This HAS to end - Sean HAS to be HOME..... NOW!!!  Please oh please where is the mercy for David.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 09:56:33 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25341
Supremo Tribunal Federal, the brazilian Supreme Court, the last level. It´s very higly unlikely corruption occurring there, those minister are on the top of their careers, they have everything, they don´t need to risk their reputation because of some illegality.
 
I hope you are right about that but there are some people that can be bought no matter how successfull they are (sometimes that is how they get to the top of their careers).

So if I understand correctly JPLS went straight to the STF and was able to get a judge to allow him more time to appeal and that is why Sean is not going home tomorrow? Does the first judge order still stand but the STF is giving JPLS time to appeal it?

Sorry to keep bothering you with questions but I am just trying to understand what the heck is going on.
-Chrissy

No, the first judge order is suspended, and STF did give JPLS time to appeal it. With Sean in Brazil, that's the saddest part of all.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:56:47 PM
Quote from: gail;25301
I don't know how Brazil can keep a child away from his only living parent, I don't care who they pay off, they wouldn't be able to justify this one. They don't want to do this, the United States is now involved and they are making fools of themselves. And making the wrong people angry. A UN seat? Don't think so. Olympics? Don't think so. Lula needs to step in and send him home tomorrow as planned.

 
 OH LULA!!!, Nobel Peace Prize???? :upck:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: bostonmom on June 02, 2009, 09:57:29 PM
This is so frustrating and disgusting.  
 
BTW - I'm watching NBC right now and there was just a teaser for the Today show about Sean and David which will evidently air in am.  Entitled - "Bringing Sean Home..."  I'm sure they will have an update on this new development.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kmoor88 on June 02, 2009, 09:57:29 PM
I can't believe what I just read. Now we kind of know how David is feeling right now.
This is real injustice. The last time this happened he was kind of fighting this battle on
his own, with one voice to turn away. Now today he has this great BIG family at BSH that is going to help him finish this battle once in for all.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:57:52 PM
Thank you Roger.  I thought I remembered you saying they were not corrupt at that level.  But I want to know if David gets custody of Sean tomorrow?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 09:58:34 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25302
"STF" should be followed by a "U" and directed at these hideous kidnappers pronto.
ROFLMAO. Sorry, I know you're angry, me too, but that was hillarious.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 09:58:58 PM
Quote from: gail;25347
He said it was Brazil law.

yes gail, he said it, but a judge from higher level can say he is wrong and then his word won´t prevail. But I truly believe his understanding will be confirmed by every justice level.
 
It´s a decision, a decision that can be appealed.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 09:59:04 PM
Quote from: roger;25350
No, the first judge order is suspended, and STF did give JPLS time to appeal it. With Sean in Brazil, that's the saddest part of all.
Can David get Sean tomorrow and keep him at the hotel with him until the ruling?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:00:56 PM
remember people, me and roger we said several times before that a decision ordering the immediate return would be appealed and very likely to be suspended. This is not a surprise, or should not, only the fact that it came from the STF.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
Quote from: mfer;25349
WOW well I won't type my initial reaction - it would get edited by Teena or Chuckles heehee.  I will sit back & hope in the next few hours we will have some more info & that these shenanigans will be over in the next couple days & Sean will be returning w/ David.  This HAS to end - Sean HAS to be HOME..... NOW!!!  Please oh please where is the mercy for David.

I am sorry, but there is no way these shenanigans (you're right, that's what they are) will be over in the next couple of days or in the next couple of weeks.

Supreme Courts don't have mercy, they apply the law as they see fit. That's why we need courts, to avoid the president or Congress to apply the law based on partisan politics and political interest. We'll be less safe without courts, I hope you agree.

I don't agree with Justice Marco Aurelio's ruling and with Sean staying in Brazil for appeals, but you've got to understand that Brazil has a judicial system and that there is SEPARATION OF POWERS in this country as much as there is in the U.S.

Can you imagine, for example, Roe v. Wade being overruled and people asking President Obama to intervene and have it reviewed? No way, right? The same here. Courts have the final word in a three-power system. Not the President, not Congress, not any foreign country.

TURNING THIS ONCE AGAIN INTO A BRAZIL VS. US ISSUE WILL BE TRAGIC TO DAVID. I HOPE YOU ALL CALM DOWN AND UNDERSTAND THIS, AS HARD AS IT IS TO DO SO RIGHT NOW.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 10:02:23 PM
We are all just wanting to know if David can go get is son and keep him there with him?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 10:03:01 PM
Roger...can you please see my other thread and answer my questions...should have posted in here I guess...maybe a mod can move it?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 02, 2009, 10:05:37 PM
Google Translation of article listed on "Keeping an eye on the Ribieros" thread by Shabak. Please note: translation is weak. "Baby" probably means "child". "Brazilian Born" doesn't mean born in Brazil.
 
 
STF News Print
Tuesday, 02 June 2009
Minister suspends decision that established the delivery of the baby Sean to American Consulate in Rio
By decision of the wrist, on the evening of Tuesday (6), the Minister Marcus Aurelius, the Supreme Court, suspended sentence that determined the transmission of lower Brazilian Sean Richard Goldman to the United States, considering the urgency of the request injunction. The presentation of the child should occur until this Wednesday (3), at 14h, the American Consulate, to comply with the ruling of the 16th Federal Judicial Section of the Rio de Janeiro in the proceedings brought by the Federal Government.
The decision of the Minister made the accusation of breach of fundamental precept (ADPF) 172 sage with a request for injunction, the Progressive Party (PP) in the STF on the afternoon of today (6).
For the party, questioned the decision interpreted the Hague Convention to the detriment of fundamental rights and principles of the smallest Brazilian, 9 years, in order to search and seizure given to send the child immediately to the United States at odds with what already decided in other cases.
Is in action, that fundamental principles guaranteed by the Constitution of 1988 is violated by the sentence, such as the obligation to protect family, to children and adolescents. The defense contends is a clear threat of injury to the right of the child that "being forced to leave his country, Brazil will not have access to broad and contradictory defense, constitutionally guaranteed by section LV, Article 5."
For the party, the minor should not be referred to the United States "in a sudden, decided subtest" because he is Brazilian born and have Brazil as his residence for nearly five years now. Emphasizes that, as foreseen by the Hague Convention, for "the harmonious development of his personality, the child should grow up in family environment, in an atmosphere of happiness, love and understanding."
Injunction
In ADPF, the party sought injunction to suspend the sentence because of the risk of irreparable damage, characterized by sending the child to the Brazilian States of America, because the decision of the Federal Court in Rio de Janeiro. For the PP, as adopted by the court of the 16th Federal, "the overlap was demonstrated interest in international relations prioritize on the interest and fundamental right of a Brazilian born."
Thus, the party sought suspension of sentence in order to prevent psychological damage "immeasurable", leave "footprints in the irreversible formation of his personality." According to ADPF, the removal of the child without it, the main party concerned, to be heard "similar to the kidnapping that the Hague Convention seeks prevent."
The injunction granted by the rapporteur will have to pass the referendum in the House STF.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: whartn on June 02, 2009, 10:05:54 PM
SOS Clinton
DO SOMETHING
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: gail;25358
Can David get Sean tomorrow and keep him at the hotel with him until the ruling?

No. David cannot ge Sean tomorrow and keep him at the hotel with him until the ruling.

There is no date for the review of Justice Marco Aurelio's ruling by the Supreme Court justices: it can take weeks or months.

Until then, Judge Pereira Pinto's decision is stayed, meaning it has no effect. That's why David cannot get Sean tomorrow or the day after or the week after. However, as per the February decision by the other federal higher court, the Superior Court of Justice, he can see Sean in Brazil anytime, just need to give the family prior notice.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Mom25 on June 02, 2009, 10:07:25 PM
Quote from: dimpledoll;25202
I think i'm gonna throw up.

That's exactly my thought... I am so sick of this... got a BUNCH of emails, have been dealing with the good news and sending emails out all day, on the phone, explaining to family, friends... and now this!! there I go sending the "reverse" email out... come on!!!!!!!!!!
 
:burn::madgo::mad2::madgo::burn:
 
Okay... after reading Roger's post.... I feel I need to calm down here...
But I am soooo disappointed, so mad... so upset, so...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 10:08:07 PM
Quote from: roger;25344
Guys, I just wanna clue you in on some aspects of this Supreme Court proceeding.
 One final note: President Lula does influence the Supreme Court justices, but only up to a point. He appointed almost all of the current Justices, since many former ones retired during his two terms in office. With diplomatic pressure, President Lula may be tempted to interfere behind the scenes and quietly require a speedy review of Marco Aurelio's decision.
 I hope to have helped a little in this time of distress.

A voice of reason in a world gone mad Roger, thank you. I think I'll stop with the voodoo doll now and go to sleep.
 
One question.
 e= and
de= of
 
de Silva related to
e Silva?
 
any connection there.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Colie on June 02, 2009, 10:08:20 PM
WHAT?  Is this news for real?? It's time Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama get involved.  The entire world is watching this lunacy!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:08:25 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;25366
Google Translation of article listed on "Keeping an eye on the Ribieros" thread by Shabak. Please note: translation is weak. "Baby" probably means "child". "Brazilian Born" doesn't mean born in Brazil.
 
 
STF News Print
Tuesday, 02 June 2009
Minister suspends decision that established the delivery of the baby Sean to American Consulate in Rio
By decision of the wrist, on the evening of Tuesday (6), the Minister Marcus Aurelius, the Supreme Court, suspended sentence that determined the transmission of lower Brazilian Sean Richard Goldman to the United States, considering the urgency of the request injunction. The presentation of the child should occur until this Wednesday (3), at 14h, the American Consulate, to comply with the ruling of the 16th Federal Judicial Section of the Rio de Janeiro in the proceedings brought by the Federal Government.
The decision of the Minister made the accusation of breach of fundamental precept (ADPF) 172 sage with a request for injunction, the Progressive Party (PP) in the STF on the afternoon of today (6).
For the party, questioned the decision interpreted the Hague Convention to the detriment of fundamental rights and principles of the smallest Brazilian, 9 years, in order to search and seizure given to send the child immediately to the United States at odds with what already decided in other cases.
Is in action, that fundamental principles guaranteed by the Constitution of 1988 is violated by the sentence, such as the obligation to protect family, to children and adolescents. The defense contends is a clear threat of injury to the right of the child that "being forced to leave his country, Brazil will not have access to broad and contradictory defense, constitutionally guaranteed by section LV, Article 5."
For the party, the minor should not be referred to the United States "in a sudden, decided subtest" because he is Brazilian born and have Brazil as his residence for nearly five years now. Emphasizes that, as foreseen by the Hague Convention, for "the harmonious development of his personality, the child should grow up in family environment, in an atmosphere of happiness, love and understanding."
Injunction
In ADPF, the party sought injunction to suspend the sentence because of the risk of irreparable damage, characterized by sending the child to the Brazilian States of America, because the decision of the Federal Court in Rio de Janeiro. For the PP, as adopted by the court of the 16th Federal, "the overlap was demonstrated interest in international relations prioritize on the interest and fundamental right of a Brazilian born."
Thus, the party sought suspension of sentence in order to prevent psychological damage "immeasurable", leave "footprints in the irreversible formation of his personality." According to ADPF, the removal of the child without it, the main party concerned, to be heard "similar to the kidnapping that the Hague Convention seeks prevent."
The injunction granted by the rapporteur will have to pass the referendum in the House STF.

Brazilian-born means "native Brazilian", that is, he is as much of a Brazilian citizen as everyone that is born in Brazil. His mother was Brazilian, and the fact that she registered him in the Brazilian Consulate in NYC makes him Brazilian-born as if he were born in Rio or São Paulo.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:09:38 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25371
A voice of reason in a world gone mad Roger, thank you. I think I'll stop with the voodoo doll now and go to sleep.
 
One question.
 e= and
de= of
 
de Silva related to
e Silva?
 
any connection there.

No connection here.

e = and
de = "of" or "from" or "by", depending of the phrase.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 10:09:45 PM
That makes me sick.  And he didn't read what the psychologists had to say?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:10:43 PM
Quote from: gail;25363
We are all just wanting to know if David can go get is son and keep him there with him?

Roger stated that the 1st judges rulling is suspended, which means it cannot be enforced.
 
Plus, David cannot stay in Brazil....he has a job and a home in NJ.  Where would he get the money to stay in Brazil?
 
This is just sooo sad.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Rio Gringa on June 02, 2009, 10:11:35 PM
Looks like I was right about the reasoning behind the suspension. Oh boy, what a mess.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 10:11:41 PM
Yes, and that family won't allow David to see his son.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 02, 2009, 10:12:06 PM
Quote from: roger;25350
No, the first judge order is suspended, and STF did give JPLS time to appeal it. With Sean in Brazil, that's the saddest part of all.

 
Roger, that was an extremely helpful post, and IMHO this is a delay, but not a decision that Sean is staying in Brazil. This means that they want to have some time to look at the appeal, which hopefully will be faster than we think.
 
Question:
 
1) Has the STF agreed to hear the appeal, or it is just giving the dark side some time to prepare and file the brief?
 
They cannot retry the case. They can only rule on the issue presented on appeal.
 
We know they appealed on the fact Sean is a "native Brazilian" and the fact that he said he wants to go back. Argument 2 is really weak, he is only 9, plus the psychologits' report.
 
 
Andre Felipe and Roger, thanks for being so helpful. I am still positive. Will Sean come back tomorrow? No. Will he come back soon? Yes.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:12:35 PM
jjsaint please post the portuguese link,
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 10:12:37 PM
Quote from: Sashia;25355
ROFLMAO. Sorry, I know you're angry, me too, but that was hillarious.
There's nothing funny about the situation... but it wan't unexpected, just surprising that it went directly to the STF.  At least I didn't say "STFU" should be directed at the hideous kidnappers pinto, rather than pronto.  (oh, what did I say?)

Andre's right - we need to ride this out.

And everyone else is right that we need to be the most proactive we have ever been in urging our officials at the highest levels to speak out about this.

Call the White House (202) 456-1111

Call Hillary's office 202-647-4000

State Dept Brazil desk 202-647-2407
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: mfer on June 02, 2009, 10:12:57 PM
I know what you mean Mom25 - I literally had just responded to a congrats email from a friend re: Sean & David - logged on here & read this thread.  ACK!!!  

Thanks Roger it is helpful for you & Andre Felipe to lay out what we may expect.  I am very sad to read they cannot rule on the case in the next few days.  Very disheartening.  But alas we will fight on another day.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 02, 2009, 10:13:07 PM
Nick Berger is having a party at the Globo blog.
 
Won't last long.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ChristineS on June 02, 2009, 10:13:59 PM
Beyond embarrassing, beyond humiliating and an utter diplomatic disaster-in-the-making for the country of Brazil.

Brazil stands to lose so much by allowing this insanity to continue. How can the government of one country, along with some seedy media outlets, let the unethical demands and criminal actions of a few citizens take precedent?


By allowing this injustice to continue one more day, Brazil is solidifying this case as a Brazil vs USA issue whether they believe it or not.
 
I posted this in Wendy's 'hang on' thread, but wanted to add it here as well.  I am going to bed and hoping to wake up to better news.  At least news that our media and government go through the roof with this one!!!!!
 
In reference to Roger asking us to not make this a Brazil vs the US issue (BTW, nice to have you back Roger!)....  it is BRAZIL that has made this case one between two countries, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 02, 2009, 10:16:00 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31067917/
 
New MSN update... FINALLY
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: gail;25376
That makes me sick. And he didn't read what the psychologists had to say?
  I guess not Gail! You can brainwashe a child and that is a good thing!!!! How sick!!!!:cloud::cloud::cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:16:27 PM
Quote from: Grace;25381
Roger, that was an extremely helpful post, and IMHO this is a delay, but not a decision that Sean is staying in Brazil. This means that they want to have some time to look at the appeal, which hopefully will be faster than we think.
 
Question:
 
1) Has the STF agreed to hear the appeal, or it is just giving the dark side some time to prepare and file the brief?
 
They cannot retry the case. They can only rule on the issue presented on appeal.
 
We know they appealed on the fact Sean is a "native Brazilian" and the fact that he said he wants to go back. Argument 2 is really weak, he is only 9, plus the psychologits' report.
 
 
Andre Felipe and Roger, thanks for being so helpful. I am still positive. Will Sean come back tomorrow? No. Will he come back soon? Yes.

It´s not about time to analyse the appeal. According to the Law, every decision, as deciding A, as deciding B, must be effective, both parties have right to achieve an effective final decision, favourable or not.
 
If Sean return to USA, he would never return to Brasil, and then JPLS´s appeal would be worthless.
That´s why me and Roger said several times before this situation would very likely to happen.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 10:17:20 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;25366
Google Translation of article listed on "Keeping an eye on the Ribieros" thread by Shabak. Please note: translation is weak. "Baby" probably means "child". "Brazilian Born" doesn't mean born in Brazil.
 
 
STF News Print
Tuesday, 02 June 2009
Minister suspends decision that established the delivery of the baby Sean to American Consulate in Rio
By decision of the wrist, on the evening of Tuesday (6), the Minister Marcus Aurelius, the Supreme Court, suspended sentence that determined the transmission of lower Brazilian Sean Richard Goldman to the United States, considering the urgency of the request injunction. The presentation of the child should occur until this Wednesday (3), at 14h, the American Consulate, to comply with the ruling of the 16th Federal Judicial Section of the Rio de Janeiro in the proceedings brought by the Federal Government.
The decision of the Minister made the accusation of breach of fundamental precept (ADPF) 172 sage with a request for injunction, the Progressive Party (PP) in the STF on the afternoon of today (6).
For the party, questioned the decision interpreted the Hague Convention to the detriment of fundamental rights and principles of the smallest Brazilian, 9 years, in order to search and seizure given to send the child immediately to the United States at odds with what already decided in other cases.
Is in action, that fundamental principles guaranteed by the Constitution of 1988 is violated by the sentence, such as the obligation to protect family, to children and adolescents. The defense contends is a clear threat of injury to the right of the child that "being forced to leave his country, Brazil will not have access to broad and contradictory defense, constitutionally guaranteed by section LV, Article 5."
For the party, the minor should not be referred to the United States "in a sudden, decided subtest" because he is Brazilian born and have Brazil as his residence for nearly five years now. Emphasizes that, as foreseen by the Hague Convention, for "the harmonious development of his personality, the child should grow up in family environment, in an atmosphere of happiness, love and understanding."
Injunction
In ADPF, the party sought injunction to suspend the sentence because of the risk of irreparable damage, characterized by sending the child to the Brazilian States of America, because the decision of the Federal Court in Rio de Janeiro. For the PP, as adopted by the court of the 16th Federal, "the overlap was demonstrated interest in international relations prioritize on the interest and fundamental right of a Brazilian born."
Thus, the party sought suspension of sentence in order to prevent psychological damage "immeasurable", leave "footprints in the irreversible formation of his personality." According to ADPF, the removal of the child without it, the main party concerned, to be heard "similar to the kidnapping that the Hague Convention seeks prevent."
The injunction granted by the rapporteur will have to pass the referendum in the House STF.

What a crock of f*&#@ing bull$!t.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 02, 2009, 10:17:39 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25382
jjsaint please post the portuguese link,

 
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=109082#
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 02, 2009, 10:17:57 PM
This should have never been this big or complicated...it is bs that a political party in a country far away is toying with David's life.  What did he ever do to deserve this.  I don't know how these people can possibly justify in there heads what there doing.....he has never done anything wrong.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 02, 2009, 10:18:57 PM
Here is the portuguese version
 
Notícias STF Imprimir (http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=109082#)
Terça-feira, 02 de Junho de 2009
Ministro suspende decisão que determinou a entrega do menino Sean ao Consulado Americano no Rio
Em decisão de próprio punho, na noite desta terça-feira (6), o ministro Marco Aurélio, do Supremo Tribunal Federal, suspendeu sentença que determinou o envio do menor brasileiro Sean Richard Goldman aos Estados Unidos da América, por considerar a urgência do pedido liminar. A apresentação da criança deveria ocorrer até esta quarta-feira (3), às 14h, ao Consulado Americano, para cumprimento de sentença da 16ª Vara Federal da Seção Judiciária do Rio de Janeiro no processo movido pela União Federal.
A decisão do ministro se deu na Arguição de Descumprimento de Preceito Fundamental (ADPF) 172 ajuizada, com pedido de liminar, pelo Partido Progressista (PP) no STF na tarde de hoje (6).
Para o partido, a sentença questionada interpretou a Convenção de Haia em detrimento de direitos e preceitos fundamentais do menor brasileiro de 9 anos, tendo em vista busca e apreensão determinada para o envio imediato da criança aos Estados Unidos da América, em desacordo com o que já foi decidido em outros casos concretos.
Consta na ação, que preceitos fundamentais garantidos pela Constituição Federal de 1988 são violados pela sentença, tais como o dever de proteção à família, à criança e ao adolescente. A defesa sustenta ser evidente a ameaça de lesão ao direito do menor que, “sendo obrigado a deixar seu país, o Brasil, não terá acesso ao contraditório e à ampla defesa, constitucionalmente garantidos, através do inciso LV, do artigo 5º”.
Para o partido, o menor não deve ser remetido aos Estados Unidos “de forma abrupta, decidida subtamente”, uma vez que ele é brasileiro nato e tem o Brasil como sua residência habitual já há quase cinco anos. Destaca que, conforme previsto pela própria Convenção de Haia, para “o desenvolvimento harmonioso de sua personalidade, a criança deve crescer em meio familiar, em clima de felicidade, de amor e de compreensão”.
Liminar
Na ADPF, o partido pedia liminar a fim de suspender a sentença devido ao risco de dano irreparável, caracterizado pelo envio do menor brasileiro aos Estados Unidos da América, em razão da decisão da Justiça Federal no Rio de Janeiro. Para o PP, na medida adotada pelo juízo da 16ª Vara Federal, “foi demonstrada a sobreposição do interesse em priorizar as relações internacionais sobre o interesse e direito fundamentais de um brasileiro nato”.
Assim, o partido pedia suspensão da sentença com o objetivo de evitar que danos psíquicos “imensuráveis”, deixem “rastros irreparáveis na formação da sua personalidade”. De acordo com a ADPF, a remoção do menor sem que ele, o principal interessado, seja ouvido “assemelha-se ao sequestro que a Convenção de Haia busca impedir”.
A liminar concedida pelo relator terá de passar pelo referendo do Plenário do STF.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 02, 2009, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: Grace;25386
Nick Berger is having a party at the Globo blog.
 
Won't last long.

Can't we knock the WIND out of his SAILS and just NOT go there AT ALL?
I'm not going:DeadHorse2:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:19:52 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25393
It´s not about time to analyse the appeal. According to the Law, every decision, as deciding A, as deciding B, must be effective, both parties have right to achieve an effective final decision, favourable or not.
 
If Sean return to USA, he would never return to Brasil, and then JPLS´s appeal would be worthless.
That´s why me and Roger said several times before this situation would very likely to happen.

for some reason my pea brain is not getting this. Is this or isn't this about time to appeal? did the supreme court judge suspend the federal courts decision on the basis that JPLS needs time to appeal or was it all the other stuff about Sean being Brazilian, which shouldn't even matter considering his only living parent lives in the US.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 10:19:57 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;25390
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31067917/
 
New MSN update... FINALLY

I found that article to be quite optomistic considering all that's been going on here.  Really AWESOME that they publishe the website addy!! NOW we're going to see some traffic!! AND some really ANGRY people!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:20:08 PM
thanks jjsaunt, it´s much more better to me read it in portuguese.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Evadc on June 02, 2009, 10:20:38 PM
I just emailed Obama.Well,I did.Really hope he can help or at least read my email(one in a million,but it I had to try it)
I'm so angry that I could actually go protesting at the White House or the Brazilian Embassy gate right now.
Poor David, this s heartbreaking!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Wendy on June 02, 2009, 10:21:55 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25401
for some reason my pea brain is not getting this. Is this or isn't this about time to appeal? did the supreme court judge suspend the federal courts decision on the basis that JPLS needs time to appeal or was it all the other stuff about Sean being Brazilian, which shouldn't even matter considering his only living parent lives in the US.

I think it's to give them time to appeal...not that the original ruling was invalid..it's just "in stasis" while they appeal...but their appeal will be heard by the Supreme Court, not Federal.  Correct??
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 10:22:00 PM
Quote from: Audax;25394
What a crock of f*&#@ing bull$!t.

 
 
:yeahthat::cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 02, 2009, 10:23:12 PM
Here's the start of the MSN article.  The rest is the same as earlier today.
 
Brazil suspends NJ father's custody of boy
 
(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/Art/APTRANS.gif)
updated 13 minutes ago

NEWARK, N.J. - A Brazilian supreme court justice has suspended a court order granting custody of a 9-year-old boy to his U.S. father.
The decision by Justice Marco Aurelio was in response to a request by a Brazilian political party. David Goldman is in Brazil and had hoped to retrieve his son Wednesday.
The Supreme Court said on its Web site that because of Aurelio's decision the matter must now be reviewed by the full court. No date was specified, but scheduling hearings can take anywhere from days to months.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Rio Gringa on June 02, 2009, 10:24:17 PM
Look, I'm sorry and I don't want to make this a Brazil vs. US issue, but what's happening now seems to fall outside the realm of what is legitimate. The appeal was brought to the Supreme Court by a political party, led by a man with connections to the parties involved in the case at the STF level. It's corruption of how the system is designed to work in a case like this. It is not a matter of supreme court law like Roe vs. Wade, it's a completely different matter. The executive is responsible for upholding international treaties and it has failed to do so, and instead, has allowed these people to get away, yet again, by abusing the system in place intended to protect its citizens.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:24:48 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25401
for some reason my pea brain is not getting this. Is this or isn't this about time to appeal? did the supreme court judge suspend the federal courts decision on the basis that JPLS needs time to appeal or was it all the other stuff about Sean being Brazilian, which shouldn't even matter considering his only living parent lives in the US.

It´s about the right of every one to be abble to achieve an effective decision from Justice.
 
If Sean goes to USA, he would never return, and the JPLS´s appeal would be worthless, and that is something the Law doesn´t permit to happen. Every one has the right to be abble to fight for a effective and valid decision.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 10:25:12 PM
What does this mean:

"fundamental precept (ADPF) 172"?

This would appear to be the basis for the appeal for a stay?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: liesl78 on June 02, 2009, 10:26:22 PM
Radar Online headline says "Sen Dornelles postpones Sean's return to the US". He goes on to say he's friends with the family
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ChristineS on June 02, 2009, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: Rio Gringa;25411
Look, I'm sorry and I don't want to make this a Brazil vs. US issue, but what's happening now seems to fall outside the realm of what is legitimate. The appeal was brought to the Supreme Court by a political party, led by a man with connections to the parties involved in the case at the STF level. It's corruption of how the system is designed to work in a case like this. It is not a matter of supreme court law like Roe vs. Wade, it's a completely different matter. The executive is responsible for upholding international treaties and it has failed to do so, and instead, has allowed these people to get away, yet again, by abusing the system in place intended to protect its citizens.
Thank you RG. You said it much better than I. I posted in the other thread to Roger, and then here but got chicken and deleted it!!!
So I'll say it again, Brazil has made this a major incident between our two countries for the exact reasons you stated above.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jackie in Upstate NY on June 02, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25393
It´s not about time to analyse the appeal. According to the Law, every decision, as deciding A, as deciding B, must be effective, both parties have right to achieve an effective final decision, favourable or not.
 
If Sean return to USA, he would never return to Brasil, and then JPLS´s appeal would be worthless.
That´s why me and Roger said several times before this situation would very likely to happen.
WEEELLL - you and Roger may very well be right ..... however, I myself had suggested a bulk order of punching bags for those frustrated (and rightfully so) BSH team members a while back ..... don't cha wish they had them now ?! My heart goes out to David and I just hope that any of those with any pull - they use it now ...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 02, 2009, 10:28:31 PM
Quote from: liesl78;25423
Radar Online headline says "Sen Dornelles postpones Sean's return to the US". He goes on to say he's friends with the family
Just like Rio Gringa Said, They are getting away this this yet AGAIN!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 02, 2009, 10:28:34 PM
Now you can't tell me they don't have incredible influence, and that is abusing his power, I hope that jackass never gets elected aagain
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 02, 2009, 10:29:38 PM
Quote from: Rio Gringa;25411
Look, I'm sorry and I don't want to make this a Brazil vs. US issue, but what's happening now seems to fall outside the realm of what is legitimate. The appeal was brought to the Supreme Court by a political party, led by a man with connections to the parties involved in the case at the STF level. It's corruption of how the system is designed to work in a case like this. It is not a matter of supreme court law like Roe vs. Wade, it's a completely different matter. The executive is responsible for upholding international treaties and it has failed to do so, and instead, has allowed these people to get away, yet again, by abusing the system in place intended to protect its citizens.
I agree with this, unfortunately it seems to be the case.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: TomD on June 02, 2009, 10:30:28 PM
Roger, thanks for your analysis of this appeal.  
Another question arises.
In the US, the Supreme Court is also the last appellate court, but just because a case is appealed to that level does not mean it has to be heard by the full court.  In other words, the justices of the Supreme Court review the case and may decide that they will leave it alone, so then the lower court ruling will stand.  But the actions of the Minister Marco Aurelio is not the same as the actions of the STF.  So can the STF (10 judges ?) review the ruling of judge Pinto and decide to leave it alone, that is, not to consider any aspect of the merits of the case?  If that is so, it would seem that they could be persuaded by the Brazilian government to do that review very quickly rather than let it drag on.
What possible legal basis could there be to overturn Justice Pinto's ruling?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 10:31:47 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25414
It´s about the right of every one to be abble to achieve an effective decision from Justice.
 
If Sean goes to USA, he would never return, and the JPLS´s appeal would be worthless, and that is something the Law doesn´t permit to happen. Every one has the right to be abble to fight for a effective and valid decision.
I didn't realize this appeal wasn't even filed by the LeS cabal...  Just how the hell is the PP (from the pinto?) a party at the table?  The notion that a political party would file a motion for a stay of a judicial decision (other than one which directly involved that party) in this country is absurd.  Brazil, being a democracy for a mere 21 years, is showing it's youth and inexperience in handling such a gift.  Sorry if this seems to be going down the wrong road, but this is really making Brazil look like just another third-world banana republic.  The repercussions will be severe, I am sure, should this turn into a kangaroo court fiasco.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 10:32:10 PM
This is just disgusting.  My eyes are hurting and my family is lonely, I think I will leave for the night.  Hopefully there will be some good news and some butt kicking from Chris Smith.  This is all just sick.  I understand the appeal process, but that would mean David should take his son and stay there while they appeal.  Not keep the boy away from his father and use your money to buy off judges.  This is simply horrific.  And all they have done is prolong the inevitable, they will not win.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 10:33:14 PM
Quote from: liesl78;25423
Radar Online headline says "Sen Dornelles postpones Sean's return to the US". He goes on to say he's friends with the family
My God, can you imagine that happening here?  He'd be dragged through the mud, tarred and feathered.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 02, 2009, 10:33:48 PM
Quote from: gail;25322
What do you make of this Carlos?  Is the Supreme Court paid off by these snakes?


I have to admit that I also allowed myself to get excited and hoped Sean would come home tommorow.. especially after the amazing sentence the judge wrote.  My instincts told me this was not the end but then I decided I was just being cyncial and hoped it was true.. It has already been so long.. no winter lasts forever.  This case has already been so exceptional...  Clinton, Obama, Congress, Dateline, BSH... There has never been a Hague case like this one. I thought it might also avoid the appeals that any other parent should expect to face in a country like Brazil.  But it is not corruption.  It is just business as usual in Brazil... and business is broken.  I'm not sure a broken system is any better than corruption though.. They both amount to the same thing.  David goes to Brazil to bring Sean home and once again comes home alone.  I'm sure there is a silver lining here somewhere.. we've made some progress.. we're closer.  I'll think about it later.  Need to take a break.  :bawling:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:34:12 PM
Quote from: Wendy;25406
I think it's to give them time to appeal...not that the original ruling was invalid..it's just "in stasis" while they appeal...but their appeal will be heard by the Supreme Court, not Federal.  Correct??

Expect appeals to be heard in all levels of the Federal Judiciary. This is a safe bet the clan has to drag this on.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 10:35:29 PM
Quote from: ChristineS;25424
Thank you RG. You said it much better than I. I posted in the other thread to Roger, and then here but got chicken and deleted it!!!
So I'll say it again, Brazil has made this a major incident between our two countries for the exact reasons you state above.

 
 
Yes I agree with you! They think they are above the law Brazil Signed A International Treaty!!! I guess they intentionaly Forgot What It Was About!!!:madgo:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:35:54 PM
Quote from: carlos;25441
I have to admit that I also allowed myself to get excited and hoped Sean would come home tommorow.. especially after the amazing sentence the judge wrote.  My instincts told me this was not the end but then I decided I was just being cyncial and hoped it was true.. It has already been so long.. no winter lasts forever.  This case has already been so exceptional...  Clinton, Obama, Congress, Dateline, BSH... There has never been a Hague case like this one. I thought it might also avoid the appeals that any other parent should expect to face in a country like Brazil.  But it is not corruption.  It is just business as usual in Brazil... and business is broken.  I'm not sure a broken system is any better than corruption though.. They both amount to the same thing.  David goes to Brazil to bring Sean home and once again comes home alone.  I'm sure there is a silver lining here somewhere.. we've made some progress.. we're closer.  I'll think about it later.  Need to take a break.  :bawling:

AGREED, CARLOS. THE SUPREME COURT IS NOT PAID BY ANYONE. YOU GUYS NEED TO COOL OFF AND WATCH THE LANGUAGE HERE. IT'S HARD, BUT IT'S THE ONLY POSITIVE THING TO DO AT THIS POINT.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 10:35:55 PM
Quote from: liesl78;25423
Radar Online headline says "Sen Dornelles postpones Sean's return to the US". He goes on to say he's friends with the family

Doesn't this mean he agrees with this being a conflict of interest?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 02, 2009, 10:37:33 PM
Question: if the judge's ruling is suspended does that mean the protection order is not being enforced? I don't mean to sound alarmist but what if this is a smoke screen so that they can run off?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:37:51 PM
Quote from: Audax;25448
Doesn't this mean he agrees with this being a conflict of interest?

No conflict of interest. He is a Senator and, as a family friend, he got his party to intervene representing the interest of the Brazilian family. It's sad, but that's all there is. The LeS and Ribeiros-types have been Dornelles' constituents for decades. He would not let them down in such urgent times.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:38:29 PM
Quote from: heatheram29;25450
Question: if the judge's ruling is suspended does that mean the protection order is not being enforced? I don't mean to sound alarmist but what if this is a smoke screen so that they can run off?

The protection order is not being enforced. But they will be dumb to run off.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:39:19 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25414
It´s about the right of every one to be abble to achieve an effective decision from Justice.
 
If Sean goes to USA, he would never return, and the JPLS´s appeal would be worthless, and that is something the Law doesn´t permit to happen. Every one has the right to be abble to fight for a effective and valid decision.

Yup, I get it and I guess it is what you suspected all along but I am starting to think that there is something more going on here. Something is just not right here......5 years.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 02, 2009, 10:39:20 PM
The first thing I did when I saw Andre Felipe's post saying that the PP made the request with the Supreme Court was to google "Dornelles", and sure enough..... Not because I knew for sure he belonged to that party, but because I suspected he was behind it. In my opinion he is a schemer, he's friends with the family, and from what I can tell, he has some serious hostility towards the US. Also, because I know how connections work in countries like Brazil - make no mistake, they go a LONG way.
 
When people are driven by ego and control, they don't back down easily. Sickening.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 02, 2009, 10:40:39 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25440
My God, can you imagine that happening here? He'd be dragged through the mud, tarred and feathered.

 
 
And voted out of office!!!!:cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:41:46 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;25434
I didn't realize this appeal wasn't even filed by the LeS cabal... Just how the hell is the PP (from the pinto?) a party at the table? The notion that a political party would file a motion for a stay of a judicial decision (other than one which directly involved that party) in this country is absurd. Brazil, being a democracy for a mere 21 years, is showing it's youth and inexperience in handling such a gift. Sorry if this seems to be going down the wrong road, but this is really making Brazil look like just another third-world banana republic. The repercussions will be severe, I am sure, should this turn into a kangaroo court fiasco.

There is no wrong, legally speaking, the party PP filling the ADPF.
And, legally speaking, there is also no wrong Sean being in the country until the final decision, the main problem is the judgements takes a lot of time in general cases, but I hope Sean´s case will be different, and will be decided faster than the usual.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 02, 2009, 10:41:47 PM
Quote from: roger;25452
The protection order is not being enforced. But they will be dumb to run off.

YES THEY ARE!!! That's what I'm worried about. They obviously have no regard to any law that gets in their way. These people ought to be ashamed of themselves. Instead of showing their love by preparing Sean for this upcoming change they are only damaging him more.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 02, 2009, 10:43:09 PM
Quote from: heatheram29;25450
Question: if the judge's ruling is suspended does that mean the protection order is not being enforced? I don't mean to sound alarmist but what if this is a smoke screen so that they can run off?
My initial thoughts when this story broke were very much along those lines. I believe Pinto's ruling was a smoke screen.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 02, 2009, 10:44:56 PM
That Supreme Court Justice's name sounds really familiar. Does anyone remember if  we came across it before and if so where. I'm pretty certain we have.
 
Poor David....
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 10:45:22 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25456
There is no wrong, legally speaking, the party PP filling the ADPF.
And, legally speaking, there is also no wrong Sean being in the country until the final decision, the main problem is the judgements takes a lot of time in general cases, but I hope Sean´s case will be different, and will be decided faster than the usual.
Well, I tend to disagree. According to the reports of the psychologists it is harmful to Sean's mental health to not be with David and stay with the Brazilian family. Ergo, the filing of the ADPF is inflicting harm to (let me use their words) a Brazilian-born child.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:45:28 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25453
Yup, I get it and I guess it is what you suspected all along but I am starting to think that there is something more going on here. Something is just not right here......5 years.

me and roger said several times before this would very likely to happen.
 
Maybe there are something "dark" going on behind the scenes, maybe there aren´t. But it´s the kind of situation that would happen without any "something more" behind the scenes.
 
btw, what I truly believe "something more" happened behind the scenes was that custody proceeding that took place in State Family Justice. That was really very veeeeeryyyyy suspicious.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: TomD;25432
Roger, thanks for your analysis of this appeal.  
Another question arises.
In the US, the Supreme Court is also the last appellate court, but just because a case is appealed to that level does not mean it has to be heard by the full court.  In other words, the justices of the Supreme Court review the case and may decide that they will leave it alone, so then the lower court ruling will stand.  But the actions of the Minister Marco Aurelio is not the same as the actions of the STF.  So can the STF (10 judges ?) review the ruling of judge Pinto and decide to leave it alone, that is, not to consider any aspect of the merits of the case?  If that is so, it would seem that they could be persuaded by the Brazilian government to do that review very quickly rather than let it drag on.
What possible legal basis could there be to overturn Justice Pinto's ruling?

TomD, I think we are in the beginning of yet another procedural mess, with lots of intertwined decisions at the Federal Judiciary level.

This means the Federal Appellate Court in Rio, the Superior Court of Justice and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will be reviewing all appeals for all decisions to be issued by the Federal Judiciary Level, including Justice Marco Aurelio's and Judge Pereira Pinto.

Even if the panel of Justices overrules Justice Marco Aurelio and have this first proceeding going David's way, it will not be the end because they will have to hear appeals on the merits of Judge Pereira Pinto's decision, then the Federal Appellate Court, then the Superior Court of Justice. But I am not an expert in civil or constitutional procedural law, so I can only go as deep as I'm going right now.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:45:40 PM
Quote from: dimpledoll;25460
My initial thoughts when this story broke were very much along those lines. I believe Pinto's ruling was a smoke screen.

Why would they run?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:46:56 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25464
me and roger said several times before this would very likely to happen.
 
Maybe there are something "dark" going on behind the scenes, maybe there aren´t. But it´s the kind of situation that would happen without any "something more" behind the scenes.

Thanks so much for all your help!!  We would never understand all this without your help...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:47:09 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;25464
me and roger said several times before this would very likely to happen.
 
Maybe there are something "dark" going on behind the scenes, maybe there aren´t. But it´s the kind of situation that would happen without any "something more" behind the scenes.

Unfortunately legal proceedings take VEEEERY LONG in Brazil until a final effective decision is issued. Five years is pretty much average, and sometimes below average. In a complicated case like this, it's the longest of times for David but not really so systemwise.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:49:11 PM
Quote from: roger;25465
TomD, I think we are in the beginning of yet another procedural mess, with lots of intertwined decisions at the Federal Judiciary level.
 
This means the Federal Appellate Court in Rio, the Superior Court of Justice and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will be reviewing all appeals for all decisions to be issued by the Federal Judiciary Level, including Justice Marco Aurelio's and Judge Pereira Pinto.
 
Even if the panel of Justices overrules Justice Marco Aurelio and have this first proceeding going David's way, it will not be the end because they will have to hear appeals on the merits of Judge Pereira Pinto's decision, then the Federal Appellate Court, then the Superior Court of Justice. But I am not an expert in civil or constitutional procedural law, so I can only go as deep as I'm going right now.

sounds like this in nowhere near over at this point.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ENR on June 02, 2009, 10:49:49 PM
Olympics no chance... UN seat not in a million years... credibility as a country no way in h***...  This is totally absurd and they are truly setting themselves up for major international confrontation on so many levels.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Priss on June 02, 2009, 10:49:50 PM
This is just terrible.  This family is cruel, very cruel to both son and dad.  The damage they are doing to the boy is an atrocity, I feel sorry for Sean.  Especially when he gets older and learns all that the family did to him and his dad.  The betrayal the Sean will feel from the people he thought cared, loved him and wanted the best for him will be great.  How much longer must son and dad wait to be reunited?  Sean is only getting older and poor David is missing out on it as is Sean missing out on time with dad.  Sean will soon no longer be a child but a teen.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 02, 2009, 10:49:55 PM
Chris Smith should have a mandate to begin his congressional hearings immediately.
 
Trade embargos, travel warnings from the State Deparment, a suspension of tourist/student visas for Brazilian nationals, the withdrawal of accreditation of Brazilian diplomats in the United States, the closing of the Brazilian embassies and consulates.....all of it should be on the table now.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 02, 2009, 10:49:58 PM
Roger,
You were just talking about separation of the different branches of government so how is it a political party gets to interfere on behalf of the LeS? I'm not being entirely flip - I'd really like to know.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 10:49:58 PM
Quote from: roger;25451
No conflict of interest. He is a Senator and, as a family friend, he got his party to intervene representing the interest of the Brazilian family. It's sad, but that's all there is. The LeS and Ribeiros-types have been Dornelles' constituents for decades. He would not let them down in such urgent times.

Not to start an argument, but how is helping out a "family friend" as a Senator when no on else would have gotten the same help NOT a conflict of interest?

It's just made the  Brazilian judiciary a joke....So he helped JPLS and made the whole country a joke....

Sounds like a conflict to me........JMO
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 02, 2009, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25458
Hey Roger and Andre. Stuff it.
 
Brazil is a third world cesspool of corruption.
 
Period.

 
They are just trying to be helpful about the intricate judicial process.
And they are actually being positive that this is expected, but does not mean the end. There is just a DELAY folks, not a final decision! It hasn't even been reviewed!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:51:13 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25458
Hey Roger and Andre. Stuff it.
 
Brazil is a third world cesspool of corruption.
 
Period.

Are you serious???
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:51:30 PM
Quote from: Lexi;25454
The first thing I did when I saw Andre Felipe's post saying that the PP made the request with the Supreme Court was to google "Dornelles", and sure enough..... Not because I knew for sure he belonged to that party, but because I suspected he was behind it. In my opinion he is a schemer, he's friends with the family, and from what I can tell, he has some serious hostility towards the US. Also, because I know how connections work in countries like Brazil - make no mistake, they go a LONG way.
 
When people are driven by ego and control, they don't back down easily. Sickening.

Dornelles is a very conservative politician and has vested interest in the U.S., not against the U.S.

He represents business, international business and mostly everyone that play in elite circles in Brazil. He just happen to be friends of the family.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 10:51:45 PM
Quote from: roger;25469
Unfortunately legal proceedings take VEEEERY LONG in Brazil until a final effective decision is issued. Five years is pretty much average, and sometimes below average. In a complicated case like this, it's the longest of times for David but not really so systemwise.
Well this system sucks! And they want a seat in the UN! GEESH! Why don't we give Michael Jackson a daycare!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: Lexi;25477
Roger,
You were just talking about separation of the different branches of government so how is it a political party gets to interfere on behalf of the LeS? I'm not being entirely flip - I'd really like to know.

According to the Brazilian Constitution a political party is a legitimate party to argue cases before the Supreme Court. It does not have to deal with politics, it has to do with national interest. Justice bought the party's claim that Judge Pereira Pinto's decision is of national interest.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 10:53:48 PM
Roger, I for one appreciate everything you are doing on here. Helping all of us to understand things we would NEVER understand without you. don't let one bad comment stop you because we really need you right now.
 
-Chrissy
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 10:56:20 PM
Quote from: roger;25482
Dornelles is a very conservative politician and has vested interest in the U.S., not against the U.S.
 
He represents business, international business and mostly everyone that play in elite circles in Brazil. He just happen to be friends of the family.[/quote]
 
Well, he didn't make any friends IN the US today........

And being "friends with the family" is no excuse for doing what they did to Dave today.............

I'm done tonight but I'll be on the war path bright and early in the morning.....bet on it.....

And every politician that I can get in touch with will know just what I think about the "friends of the family" justice system that is going on in Brazil.....
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:56:32 PM
Quote from: Teena;25483
Well this system sucks! And they want a seat in the UN! GEESH! Why don't we give Michael Jackson a daycare!

Teena, what roger said happens in general cases, but I don´t have any motive to believe the same will happen to Sean, I truly believe STF will judge it faster than usual, I hope it takes only some weeks.
 
The same as the judge decided the case faster than the usual, I hope it will happen at other levels as well. Just keep the same work you people did before.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 02, 2009, 10:58:12 PM
Quote from: roger;25482
Dornelles is a very conservative politician and has vested interest in the U.S., not against the U.S.
 
He represents business, international business and mostly everyone that play in elite circles in Brazil. He just happen to be friends of the family.

Actually, the quotes I've seen that are attributable to Dornelles definitely suggest some sort of animus towards the US.
 
Just because he may have vested interests in the US doesn't necessarily negate that.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Priss on June 02, 2009, 10:58:14 PM
I agree this is beyond rude.  If you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all.  We the US have made mistakes too that doesn't make us all bad.  The same for Brazil.  There are many great people in Brazil a few bad people don't make all bad!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: rachelle4 on June 02, 2009, 10:58:25 PM
Please stop all the negativity about Brazil. It is LeS, Ribiero's, Dornelles, etc. that we are upset with. THEY filed with the Supreme Court, not the good citizens of Brazil. I know it is disappointing that Sean may not be coming home tomorrow but we have to see what happens next.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ilgirl on June 02, 2009, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Audax;25462
Well, I tend to disagree. According to the reports of the psychologists it is harmful to Sean's mental health to not be with David and stay with the Brazilian family. Ergo, the filing of the ADPF is inflicting harm to (let me use their words) a Brazilian-born child.

I agree, by allowing the family to keep Sean this justice is allowing the abuse of this child to continue. It wasn't the judge who said he had suffered severe psychological damage, it was psychologists. And in my world as a counselor who works with kids; psychological damage equals child abuse. Did he forget that abusing a child is against the law? All the damage being done to Sean from this point forward is on his shoulders. Don't the courts have to ultimately rule in protecting this child from harm?

At the very least, Sean should be removed from his grandparents home, since they have been found to be psychologically abusing him. Brazil can do exactly what we did with Elian Gonzalez; give him back to his father and provide a safe place for them to be together. This guy should be ashamed of himself if he doesn't act tomorrow morning to protect Sean.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 02, 2009, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: DaniDee;25487
Wow. That is beyond disrespectful to those here who are trying to help.

and he is an administrator of this forun....
 
he is playing JPLS´s game, a point score for JPLS...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 11:00:07 PM
CHUCKLES! Can you start a thread with that contact info for everyone to start calling tomorrow??? Some simple directions to go along with it? A nice pep talk maybe?:D I am I pushing it yet?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 02, 2009, 11:01:08 PM
Quote from: ENR;25474
Olympics no chance... UN seat not in a million years... credibility as a country no way in h***... a third world cesspool of total corruption is more like it. This is totally absurd and they are truly setting themselves up for major international confrontation on so many levels.

 
Well said.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sodasg on June 02, 2009, 11:01:55 PM
Andre or Roger - So when does it end?  If the appeal is heard by the Supreme Court and they make a favorable decision to let Sean come home, will it be over?  No more appeals??? Will the dark side have any other chance to keep Sean in Brazil?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jl2saint on June 02, 2009, 11:03:32 PM
:)DaniD,

You have to , in some way, understand that the Brazilian justice system has let Dave down time and time again........

And you have to understand that emotions are running high right now.......

And you have to understand that this is, without a doubt, one of the ALL TIME injustices in the modern era......How much can 1 man stand?

So, while we LOVE our Brazilian supporters and we understand that not all are like the Ribiero's, JPLS, etc......You must also understand that these clowns and the Brazilian justice system is apparently a monumental joke.......

We love ya Dani, but we have to let everyone know that this type of tragedy isn't okay......Some do it differently than others....

Love ya, mean it......:)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: tweinstein on June 02, 2009, 11:04:15 PM
I think I've heard enough of the Brazil bashing for now. I've got two children there and I'm trying to get them home. The type of childish name-calling going on is not acceptable.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Priss on June 02, 2009, 11:05:18 PM
The next judgement should not be announced until David can be present in Brazil to hear the decision.   So when it says he has custody he can take Sean back home, forget about clothes and all that, take the boy straight to the airport and go.  Granny can mail his stuff to him in the mail.  This is sad that the family is doing this.  David is willing to let them stay in touch and visit Sean.  More then can be said about the family and their treatment of David.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: UD_student on June 02, 2009, 11:05:59 PM
That was a sad lengthy amount of comments to read through compared to my overwhelming joy last night. Unfortunately, Roger and Andre are right that they did warn us this would happen. However, like Carlos, I allowed myself to become more excited than was good for me yesterday and today until now. I lost power (minor tornado), called everyone I could think of this evening to talk to them about Sean coming home tomorrow. Then I logged in here once I got power again and was surprised, frustrated, and very upset with this development although I know I shouldn't have been.  

Thank you very much Roger and Andre for explaining everything going on in layman's terms as although I've read things about the decisions with this case in the past, I definitely know very little about the court system in Brazil.  I know you both have been instrumental in my and many other people's understanding and we simply cannot thank you enough. Andre-good luck on the rest of your exams!

I will keep up the prayers, contact the White House and SOS tomorrow by phone and eagerly await any other efforts for BSH and developments from Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 02, 2009, 11:07:07 PM
Quote from: roger;25485
According to the Brazilian Constitution a political party is a legitimate party to argue cases before the Supreme Court. It does not have to deal with politics, it has to do with national interest. Justice bought the party's claim that Judge Pereira Pinto's decision is of national interest.

 
Ok but I think we both know that "national interest" is just a facade to make his and their (PP) interference in this case seem legit. This is and always has been about the LeS family interest - looks like the tail is wagging the dog here and the whole country is being made to look bad.
 
And anyway, how could it be in any civilized country's national interest to thumb their noses at international law for this long?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 02, 2009, 11:07:30 PM
The negativity is not towards the general public. The regular people of Brazil are being f#cked by these people just as much as David, if not more.
 
If influence can suspend this process in it's tracks then influence can get the ball rolling again. I don't accept any delay longer than a day or so. There is no possible way that this can be beyond their control.
 
Sorry.. the gloves are off.. this is bullsh#t.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 02, 2009, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: Lexi;25495
Actually, the quotes I've seen that are attributable to Dornelles definitely suggest some sort of animus towards the US.
 
Just because he may have vested interests in the US doesn't necessarily negate that.

Senator Dornelles has been a pal of every U.S. government for the four decades he's been around in Brazilian politics. He is a staunch conservative, and in Brazil a staunch conservative sides with the U.S. government in all economic issues. This time around it did not work because of the family ties with the LeS or the Ribeiros.

If it weren't for the family ties, Dornelles would be tempted to make quiet lobby on behalf of David! But that's just how politico types operate, only to their constituents, and that's why they don't have any credibility in societies throughout the world.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 02, 2009, 11:09:17 PM
I am closing this thread for a few minutes till I can make sense of a couple of things.  It will reopen shortly.

... and after cleaning up the inadvertent after-closing posts. Fair is fair.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 02, 2009, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Teena;25483
Well this system sucks! And they want a seat in the UN! GEESH! Why don't we give Michael Jackson a daycare!

Excellent comparison!!!!:clapping:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: TomD on June 02, 2009, 11:51:12 PM
Quote from: roger;25465
TomD, I think we are in the beginning of yet another procedural mess, with lots of intertwined decisions at the Federal Judiciary level.

This means the Federal Appellate Court in Rio, the Superior Court of Justice and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will be reviewing all appeals for all decisions to be issued by the Federal Judiciary Level, including Justice Marco Aurelio's and Judge Pereira Pinto.

Even if the panel of Justices overrules Justice Marco Aurelio and have this first proceeding going David's way, it will not be the end because they will have to hear appeals on the merits of Judge Pereira Pinto's decision, then the Federal Appellate Court, then the Superior Court of Justice. But I am not an expert in civil or constitutional procedural law, so I can only go as deep as I'm going right now.
Roger, I think I understand what you are saying, but I definitely do not understand why anyone would defend a "justice" system that allows for this type of procedural morass.  Allowing for this appeal process to delay a ruling of a Federal court is perhaps the way things work in Brasil, but it is, in my opinion, opening the door to abuse.  You cannot defend abuse as the ideal fulfillment of the rule of law, you cannot claim that such a system is the epitome of justice. Or maybe you can, in Brazil?  At some point, given the history of this case, a rational person has to say there is something very wrong here.  And this is my biggest problem with the explanations about Brazilian "justice", it does not seem to see the connection of LAW to the concepts of right and wrong.  The next court, the STF, the highest court in Brasil, should do what is RIGHT, what is just; it should refuse to hear the appeal presented by the political party through the intervention of Justice Marco Aurelio. It should say "There is no legal basis for questioning the ruling of judge Pinto" by a party that is not even connected to the case. It should say "Enough is enough!"  This would not violate the constitutional rights of any citizen of Brasil.  And it should do this very soon.  You may have experience with Brazilian justice that tells you this will not happen, but we do not.  So we are naturally prejudiced against anyone who defends this as "RIGHT".  To us it is WRONG.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 02, 2009, 11:55:41 PM
Quote from: TomD;25553
Roger, I think I understand what you are saying, but I definitely do not understand why anyone would defend a "justice" system that allows for this type of procedural morass. Allowing for this appeal process to delay a ruling of a Federal court is perhaps the way things work in Brasil, but it is, in my opinion, opening the door to abuse. You cannot defend abuse as the ideal fulfillment of the rule of law, you cannot claim that such a system is the epitome of justice. Or maybe you can, in Brazil? At some point, given the history of this case, a rational person has to say there is something very wrong here. And this is my biggest problem with the explanations about Brazilian "justice", it does not seem to see the connection of LAW to the concepts of right and wrong. The next court, the STF, the highest court in Brasil, should do what is RIGHT, what is just; it should refuse to hear the appeal presented by the political party through the intervention of Justice Marco Aurelio. It should say "There is no legal basis for questioning the ruling of judge Pinto" by a party that is not even connected to the case. It should say "Enough is enough!" This would not violate the constitutional rights of any citizen of Brasil. And it should do this very soon. You may have experience with Brazilian justice that tells you this will not happen, but we do not. So we are naturally predudiced against anyone who defends this as "RIGHT". To us it is WRONG.

This is the only thing I have read that makes sense tonight.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Teena on June 02, 2009, 11:58:03 PM
Quote from: TomD;25553
Roger, I think I understand what you are saying, but I definitely do not understand why anyone would defend a "justice" system that allows for this type of procedural morass. Allowing for this appeal process to delay a ruling of a Federal court is perhaps the way things work in Brasil, but it is, in my opinion, opening the door to abuse. You cannot defend abuse as the ideal fulfillment of the rule of law, you cannot claim that such a system is the epitome of justice. Or maybe you can, in Brazil? At some point, given the history of this case, a rational person has to say there is something very wrong here. And this is my biggest problem with the explanations about Brazilian "justice", it does not seem to see the connection of LAW to the concepts of right and wrong. The next court, the STF, the highest court in Brasil, should do what is RIGHT, what is just; it should refuse to hear the appeal presented by the political party through the intervention of Justice Marco Aurelio. It should say "There is no legal basis for questioning the ruling of judge Pinto" by a party that is not even connected to the case. It should say "Enough is enough!" This would not violate the constitutional rights of any citizen of Brasil. And it should do this very soon. You may have experience with Brazilian justice that tells you this will not happen, but we do not. So we are naturally predudiced against anyone who defends this as "RIGHT". To us it is WRONG.
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping: Wow! You hit the nail on the head Tom.
 
How come I can't be so good with words like that? The 70's? Oh I wasn't born yet.:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 02, 2009, 11:59:40 PM
You know, if the tables were turned, Brazil would be ordering the US to return their Brazilian child.  So you guys maybe should think of it that way? Roger and Andre, that's why we are so upset.  I'm sure our government would get involved and get the child back.  Which is what Brazi should do now.  David is Sean's only parent and they have no right keeping him there.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 03, 2009, 12:00:11 AM
Quote from: Teena;25483
Well this system sucks! And they want a seat in the UN! GEESH! Why don't we give Michael Jackson a daycare!

 
The sick part is they would if he knew the right people.
 
I'm going to bed. I'm totally disgusted.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: elizrpoe on June 03, 2009, 12:03:26 AM
I feel so heartbroken for David. Its so exhausting to make that trip to Brazil and just to be jerked around again.....I'm sick...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Bree on June 03, 2009, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: zaxmom;25242
They did this within 24 hours...I would like to see how the next 24-48 hours turn out for us. I pray this can turn around just as quickly.

I agree! What's good for one, should be good for the other. I'm thoroughly disgusted with the Brazilian Justice system. I even hesitate to call it justice. I know the US system is far from perfect, but come on.
 
This is twice that LeS has been able to get a quick ruling in his favor. The first time was a farce and this time it is even worse. How many times does the Brazilian Government intend for David to make the trip to Brazil and yet be told...sorry, maybe next time. GMAFB! :mad2:
 
 
Quote from: TomD;25553
Roger, I think I understand what you are saying, but I definitely do not understand why anyone would defend a "justice" system that allows for this type of procedural morass. Allowing for this appeal process to delay a ruling of a Federal court is perhaps the way things work in Brasil, but it is, in my opinion, opening the door to abuse. You cannot defend abuse as the ideal fulfillment of the rule of law, you cannot claim that such a system is the epitome of justice. Or maybe you can, in Brazil? At some point, given the history of this case, a rational person has to say there is something very wrong here. And this is my biggest problem with the explanations about Brazilian "justice", it does not seem to see the connection of LAW to the concepts of right and wrong. The next court, the STF, the highest court in Brasil, should do what is RIGHT, what is just; it should refuse to hear the appeal presented by the political party through the intervention of Justice Marco Aurelio. It should say "There is no legal basis for questioning the ruling of judge Pinto" by a party that is not even connected to the case. It should say "Enough is enough!" This would not violate the constitutional rights of any citizen of Brasil. And it should do this very soon. You may have experience with Brazilian justice that tells you this will not happen, but we do not. So we are naturally predudiced against anyone who defends this as "RIGHT". To us it is WRONG.

:yeahthat: Very well put Tom!!! :clapping::clapping:
 
Quote from: gail;25562
You know, if the tables were turned, Brazil would be ordering the US to return their Brazilian child. So you guys maybe should think of it that way? Roger and Andre, that's why we are so upset. I'm sure our government would get involved and get the child back. Which is what Brazi should do now. David is Sean's only parent and they have no right keeping him there.

Gail - you are right! How many times are they going to put David through this crap in order to appease their 'friends'. I think it's BS that Lula didn't want to intervene because it needs to be handled in the judicial system, yet a political party that has no part of this case can intervene? This is beyond ridiculous!
 
I feel a migraine coming on! Oh how I wish I were able to go to Brazil...don't know what I would do when I got there but I would love to meet Sen Dornelles (sp?). What a moron! They have made this case very political now - even after they want everyone to believe this isn't a US vs Brazil thing. Yeah right!
 
I just heard to Hillary is on her way to Egypt or something. I hope Congressmen Smith is burning up the phone lines to the right people. Enough is enough! :mad2:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jack Silva on June 03, 2009, 12:07:40 AM
TomD:
 
The motivation for the lawsuit from the Progressve Party (Sen. Dornelles) was a violation of Sean´s constitutional right as a Brazilian citizen. Something that was, apparently, not considered by the Judge from the lower Federal Court in his decision. I can´t tell you which right was violated, bc Brazilian media did not replicate any of the decisions.
 
It should be, of course, a sad day for everyone interested in this case. This could mean a couple of extra years of litigation in Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Shar on June 03, 2009, 12:07:44 AM
Quote from: tweinstein;25507
I think I've heard enough of the Brazil bashing for now. I've got two children there and I'm trying to get them home. The type of childish name-calling going on is not acceptable.

Thanks, Roger and André, for all your help throughout this wrenching ordeal.  Being the "messenger" can be a lousy job!!  Please know how much you're appreciated for your perspectives.

This latest news makes my heart feel like imploding.  I've never witnessed such abject cruelty toward a father and son in the interest of keeping them separated.  It's beyond sociopathic and sick.

How does David keep his sanity?  I have to believe this ploy will resolve FAST and that it's the LAST and FINAL hurdle.  The letters and emails can never stop until David and Sean are reunited.  I hope David and Sean can at least spend some time together without the intrusion of the dark side while David's in Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Bob D'Amico on June 03, 2009, 12:07:59 AM
OK Let's reopen this thread with the caveat that everyone take a deep breath and count to 10 slowly and calm down.

We all expected that an appeal would be filed so this is no surprise. Brazil is a sovereign nation with a robust judicial system and large body of law.

Here in the US we have first, the state court system and next the Federal system. In the US the first Federal court level are the District Courts, next the Appeals Court and finally the Supreme Court.

We have been fighting all along to get David's case heard in the Brazilian Federal courts which has jurisdiction because of the Hague Convention.

He won at the first Federal level and this appeal has "leapfrogged" the second level to a single judge in the Brazilian Supreme. The same thing can happen in the US and I expect like the US Supreme Court this single judge must get one or more of his colleagues to agree to review the appeal. If he is unable to get "support" from others the appeal will be turned down.

Where I am naturally confused is that this appeal was submitted by a third party. I may be wrong but I do not believe the Ribeiros and Lins e Silva's are party to this appeal. This is not allowed under US law, a third party can only join a case or appeal as a "friend of the court" without any specific rights or specific permission to argue before the court.

We need to let this play out while we learn the precise details of the process and stop speculating how long it will take. With no specific knowledge I can state that it could take days or weeks. I doubt it will take months - TRUST ME, BRAZIL DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE - DELAYING THE REPATRIATION INDEFINITELY, BRAZIL HAS FAR TOO MUCH TO LOSE.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Bree on June 03, 2009, 12:08:43 AM
Quote from: elizrpoe;25567
I feel so heartbroken for David. Its so exhausting to make that trip to Brazil and just to be jerked around again.....I'm sick...

Exactly!  :(  I pray for David's well being - and Sean's.  I can't imagine being in his shoes.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 03, 2009, 12:09:39 AM
So much for calling it a night. There are 2 new posts by Eduardo:

 
Minister of the STF meets political and suspending return Sean (http://javascript:top.BV.Nav('http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/brasilcomz/posts/2009/06/02/ministro-do-stf-atende-politicos-suspende-retorno-de-sean-192097.asp');)

Victory of the people short-lived.

The Minister Marcus Aurelius, superior Federal Court (STF), now suspended the decision that required around Sean Goldman with his father in USA.

The decision to own fist a Minister milhões was in breach of rule arguição (ADPF) and recommendation 172 followed politicians of the Progressive Party (pp).

Now, the only certainty is that the case, that came out of family justice Federal became even is novel.

The PP argues that fundamental precepts that guaranteed by the Federal Constitution of 1988 are violated by sentence, such as the duty of protecting family, children and adolescents.

Defence continues to claim that it is clear “ the threat of injury to the law of less than, ” and leave their country, Brazil, Sean don't have access to contradictory and ample defence, constitutionally guaranteed, by means of item LV, article 5.

For the party, the minor should not be referred to the United States “ so abrupt decided subtamente ”, since he is Brazilian NATO and Brazil as his habitual residence for almost five years.

This debate is hard to believe that there is still in Brazil who based any argument in the fact that Sean Goldman is even a Brazilian NATO “. ”

The resource was based on the allegation that the sentence (of the judge Pereira Pinto) can cause “ likely irreparable, characterised by submission of Brazil to the United States of America, on grounds of decision Federal in Rio de Janeiro. To the pp, as adopted by judgement of the 16th 29(2)(a) Federal “ was rollover prioritize interest in international relations on the interest and right a Brazilian NATO ”.

And more: the report stresses that, as provided for by the Hague Convention for “ the harmonious development of their personality, the child should grow in family environment, to happiness, love and understanding. ”

So what grandparents paternos, cousins and father represent.

now cherry cake: “ according to ADPF, the removal of the minor without it, the main interested, be heard “ resembles the kidnapping the Hague Convention seeks to prevent ”.

Once again, David Goldman, a citizen who has never been hurt to Brazil, will be prevented by the Brazilian authorities to take back the child.

Attention Brazil, the world watching everything perplexed.
 
 
sent by Eduardo de Oliveira -
2.6 2009.

|
23h56m

Understand who suspended back Sean to the USA (http://javascript:top.BV.Nav('http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/brasilcomz/posts/2009/06/02/entenda-quem-suspendeu-volta-de-sean-aos-eua-192112.asp');)

Although the argument of introductory suspending return to the US claims be ensuring law of the boy, ordinary has no right to enter with the resource.
 
As the law No. 9 882 / 99, art. 1º - arguição provided for in §1 of art. 102 of the Federal Constitution will be brought before the Supreme Federal Court, and object to prevent or repair the precept fundamental lesion, resulting from the public authorities. "

However, the art. 2 of the same law stipulates that can only operate under the arguição of rule fundamental "are added to the direct action of unconstitutional," the President of the Republic, the bureaux of the Senate, Chamber of Deputies, assembléis or sindaco legislative district Federal Governor of the State or Federal District, the Federal Council of the OAB, or political party.

Before the progressive party enter action, the Dem had already asked the authority of the Hague Convention in Brazil. I.e. who is preventing Sean return to his father – the only relative live that has its blood – are not citizens. But the same authorities that have a duty to defend my rights, in this case, elected by us.

Any doubt that there was a clash between the culture of influence in Brazil with the seriousness of international law?

Understand because: the resource in this case should be done in Rio de Janeiro. When the PP invoked the STF, see the process that runs:
Resource - simple Court 2nd region in Rio de Janeiro;
- Special feature in the Superior Court of Justice, in Brasilia;
- And resource extraordinary Supreme Federal Court.

We must clarify that this decision of the judge Rafael de Souza Pereira Pinto continues through. However, the effects of which the judge determined were suspended because of the authority of the Minister Marco Aurelio.

The trial of the resource may last for both days to years, such as the son Francois Larivee, whose return to Canada was ordered by a federal judge in 2007, but the resource is still in trial until today.

May seem exaggerated, but the difference in the case Goldman is exactly the full exercise of each early commentator this blog, i.e. the public pressure.

So, here is a request: not silence never! It is not only David Goldman this feature to affront, but to all parents of children detained illegally in Brazil.

Look at how our expectations may be upside down: the case Goldman reach the STF, may take several years by shaming Brazil, given the number of processes currently engavetados by the body. Because as i said Rui Barbosa, “ the Supreme has the ability of getting finally. ”

Attention Brazil when the world begin to act, the Brazilian may lose much.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Shar on June 03, 2009, 12:13:23 AM
Quote from: Lexi;25512
Ok but I think we both know that "national interest" is just a facade to make his and their (PP) interference in this case seem legit. This is and always has been about the LeS family interest - looks like the tail is wagging the dog here and the whole country is being made to look bad.
 
And anyway, how could it be in any civilized country's national interest to thumb their noses at international law for this long?

And would it also be in the national interest of children abducted FROM Brazil and their LBPs to have the countries sequestering those children to refute the Hague, too?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jack Silva on June 03, 2009, 12:15:22 AM
I am simply guessing that the Party filed an injunction straight up to the STF, while the appeal against yesterday´s decision is still pending at the Federal court of Appeals in Rio.
 
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;25577
OK Let's reopen this thread with the caveat that everyone take a deep breath and count to 10 slowly and calm down.
 
He won at the first Federal level and this appeal has "leapfrogged" the second level to a single judge in the Brazilian Supreme. The same thing can happen in the US and I expect like the US Supreme Court this single judge must get one or more of his colleagues to agree to review the appeal. If he is unable to get "support" from others the appeal will be turned down.
 
Where I am naturally confused is that this appeal was submitted by a third party. I may be wrong but I do not believe the Ribeiros and Lins e Silva's are party to this appeal. This is not allowed under US law, a third party can only join a case or appeal as a "friend of the court" without any specific rights or specific permission to argue before the court.
 
We need to let this play out while we learn the precise details of the process and stop speculating how long it will take. With no specific knowledge I can state that it could take days or weeks. I doubt it will take months - TRUST ME, BRAZIL DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE - DELAYING THE REPATRIATION INDEFINITELY, BRAZIL HAS FAR TOO MUCH TO LOSE.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 12:15:32 AM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;25577
OK Let's reopen this thread with the caveat that everyone take a deep breath and count to 10 slowly and calm down.
 
We all expected that an appeal would be filed so this is no surprise. Brazil is a sovereign nation with a robust judicial system and large body of law.
 
Here in the US we have first, the state court system and next the Federal system. In the US the first Federal court level are the District Courts, next the Appeals Court and finally the Supreme Court.
 
We have been fighting all along to get David's case heard in the Brazilian Federal courts which has jurisdiction because of the Hague Convention.
 
He won at the first Federal level and this appeal has "leapfrogged" the second level to a single judge in the Brazilian Supreme. The same thing can happen in the US and I expect like the US Supreme Court this single judge must get one or more of his colleagues to agree to review the appeal. If he is unable to get "support" from others the appeal will be turned down.
 
Where I am naturally confused is that this appeal was submitted by a third party. I may be wrong but I do not believe the Ribeiros and Lins e Silva's are party to this appeal. This is not allowed under US law, a third party can only join a case or appeal as a "friend of the court" without any specific rights or specific permission to argue before the court.
 
We need to let this play out while we learn the precise details of the process and stop speculating how long it will take. With no specific knowledge I can state that it could take days or weeks. I doubt it will take months - TRUST ME, BRAZIL DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE - DELAYING THE REPATRIATION INDEFINITELY, BRAZIL HAS FAR TOO MUCH TO LOSE.

Bob,
 
Thank you for your insight and advice. Please keep us posted of any updates you get from David. And please tell him that our support for him is now stronger than ever before.
 
Isabel
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Bree on June 03, 2009, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25574
TomD:
 
The motivation for the lawsuit from the Progressve Party (Sen. Dornelles) was a violation of Sean´s constitutional right as a Brazilian citizen. Something that was, apparently, not considered by the Judge from the lower Federal Court in his decision. I can´t tell you which right was violated, bc Brazilian media did not replicate any of the decisions.
 
It should be, of course, a sad day for everyone interested in this case. This could mean a couple of extra years of litigation in Brazil.

I wonder if Dornelles remembers that Sean is also a US citizen and his rights were violated some...ohhh....5 years ago! This case is just heartbreaking! It's sad that a father (the only surviving parent) is having to fight with his all just to be with his son.
 
 
 
Thank you Bob! Your words calmed me down (for now anyway). David is lucky to have you and Mark as friends.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Sashia on June 03, 2009, 12:19:15 AM
Quote from: heatheram29;25581
So much for calling it a night. There are 2 new posts by Eduardo:

 
So, here is a request: not silence never! It is not only David Goldman this feature to affront, but to all parents of children detained illegally in Brazil.
 
 
Attention Brazil when the world begin to act, the Brazilian may lose much.

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Exhausted, going to bed.
Beijos
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dimpledoll on June 03, 2009, 12:22:55 AM
Quote from: Bree;25591
I wonder if Dornelles remembers that Sean is also a US citizen and his rights were violated some...ohhh....5 years ago! This case is just heartbreaking! It's sad that a father (the only surviving parent) is having to fight with his all just to be with his son.
 
 
 
Thank you Bob! Your words calmed down (for now anyway). David is lucky to have you and Mark as friends.
Yes,Thank You Bob.
Your words helped calm me down as well.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 03, 2009, 12:27:50 AM
A fitting comment:
 
   Nickname: CachorroNicolau - 2/6/2009 - 23:04
Angélica, this will be the last resort, even. One day will not keep Sean in the "Truman Show" that he lives. He will find out who is really his father.
 
Apelido: CachorroNicolau - 2/6/2009 - 23:04
Angélica, esse vai ser o último recurso, mesmo. Um dia não vão conseguir manter o Sean nesse "Truman Show" que ele vive. Ele vai descobrir quem é realmente o pai dele.

Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 03, 2009, 12:30:35 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;25456
There is no wrong, legally speaking, the party PP filling the ADPF.
And, legally speaking, there is also no wrong Sean being in the country until the final decision, the main problem is the judgements takes a lot of time in general cases, but I hope Sean´s case will be different, and will be decided faster than the usual.


Thanks for reopening Mr D!

These are my questions for our esteemed friends from Brazil:

1.  I understand that a political party can file a motion under your laws... but doesn't that make the whole issue of separation of powers of which so many Brazilian have recent spoken fall to pieces?  Here, political parties are specifically forbidden from filing suit in matters that do not directly affect them.  An example was previously raised of the President intervening in RvW... but what if, say, the GOP filed suit along the same lines?  They simply can't do it - it's anathema to everything our constitutional democracy stands for.  Obviously, I have a long way to go to understand the Bz political/justice system.

2.  I'm still not clear on what the "section 172" or whatever it is may be... as the grounds for the appeal?  Is this essentially saying that Sean is a Brazilian national and therefore the Hauge Convention does not apply?

3.  In the US, a single Justice of the Supreme Court can accept an appeal, but he needs to be joined by at least another (as I understand it).  How does this work in Brazil?  Does the fact that one Justice has granted a stay guarantee that this will need to be heard in full, or can the STF summarily decline to hear the case?  (And, in you opinions, what do you think they are likely to do?)

Thank you, gentlemen.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 03, 2009, 12:32:47 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25589
I am simply guessing that the Party filed an injunction straight up to the STF, while the appeal against yesterday´s decision is still pending at the Federal court of Appeals in Rio.


Bingo... I think you are absolutely right.  That's why they had the Pity Party file the ADPF.  To get what they knew would be a fast and immediate suspension that they were worried they might not get in the appeals court.  I expect the appeals court filing is still forthcoming.  Since the PP filed the ADPF and has no official affiliation with the Dark Slime, Lies and Snakes probably still has standing to file the regular appeal without the time constraint of submitting it and getting it reviewed and responded to before the deadline of tommorow at 3.  If Lula and/or Obama don't step in this thing will drag on in appeals until Sean becomes an adult and chooses where he wants to live.  :burn:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 12:32:47 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25574
TomD:
 
The motivation for the lawsuit from the Progressve Party (Sen. Dornelles) was a violation of Sean´s constitutional right as a Brazilian citizen. Something that was, apparently, not considered by the Judge from the lower Federal Court in his decision. I can´t tell you which right was violated, bc Brazilian media did not replicate any of the decisions.
 
It should be, of course, a sad day for everyone interested in this case. This could mean a couple of extra years of litigation in Brazil.
And how do you know this??  Don't bet on it being a couple of years.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 12:33:45 AM
You can bet somebody will step in.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 12:34:18 AM
Quote from: Shar;25585
And would it also be in the national interest of children abducted FROM Brazil and their LBPs to have the countries sequestering those children to refute the Hague, too?

I guess not since the treaty hinges on the concept of reciprocity which is great as a theory but doesn't seem to be working too well in practice..with some countries anyway.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 12:34:44 AM
To all JPLS supporters: If you think we were fighting for David and Sean's reunification before, well, then get ready for this! We were just warming up. Now, lets bring it on!!!:cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 12:39:26 AM
Quote from: gail;25610
You can bet somebody will step in.

I agree. And that's why it is so important that we keep the pressure on. We must keep reminding people that this battle is not won yet and that they need to continue to help us. We will not be silenced until JUSTICE is truly served.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 03, 2009, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: gail;25610
You can bet somebody will step in.

Hell yes. Think about it. David is down there with Dateline filming, a congressman on the way, and the secretary of state commenting just a few hours ago. Every second this drags out makes it look more corrupt.
 
In the words of the lovely Eduardo, 'Brazil, the world is watching'.
 
 
 
I'm really signing off this time.. good night
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 12:41:56 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25574
TomD:
 
The motivation for the lawsuit from the Progressve Party (Sen. Dornelles) was a violation of Sean´s constitutional right as a Brazilian citizen. Something that was, apparently, not considered by the Judge from the lower Federal Court in his decision. I can´t tell you which right was violated, bc Brazilian media did not replicate any of the decisions.
 
It should be, of course, a sad day for everyone interested in this case. This could mean a couple of extra years of litigation in Brazil.

they used this argument but it´s not the only one and it´s faarr behind in importance from another argument much more powerful they used: the judge´s decision violates their right to get the case analysed by the higher levels, if Sean goes to US, he won´t return never again and JPLS´s appeal will be uselles. That´s the argument I believe can make STF decides Sean must stay in Brasil until the last and decisive final judgement.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jjsaunt on June 03, 2009, 12:43:03 AM
Quote from: heatheram29;25626

 
I'm really signing off this time.. good night

Your green lights still on.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 12:47:13 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25605
Thanks for reopening Mr D!
 
These are my questions for our esteemed friends from Brazil:
 
1. I understand that a political party can file a motion under your laws... but doesn't that make the whole issue of separation of powers of which so many Brazilian have recent spoken fall to pieces? Here, political parties are specifically forbidden from filing suit in matters that do not directly affect them. An example was previously raised of the President intervening in RvW... but what if, say, the GOP filed suit along the same lines? They simply can't do it - it's anathema to everything our constitutional democracy stands for. Obviously, I have a long way to go to understand the Bz political/justice system.

This is exactly what I was thinking....what's even more confounding to me is it's not that the entire party or party leadership buys into it, but the head of the GOP can use the whole party because he wants to help his family friends.:eek: No wonder the LeS are pompous...
 
Oh one more thing....someone in the thread said perhaps the Federal court judge didn't consider the question of Sean's nationality. If I recall correctly (based on the highlights), he did and said it's not relevant.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: TomD on June 03, 2009, 12:47:51 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25574
TomD:
 
The motivation for the lawsuit from the Progressve Party (Sen. Dornelles) was a violation of Sean´s constitutional right as a Brazilian citizen. Something that was, apparently, not considered by the Judge from the lower Federal Court in his decision. I can´t tell you which right was violated, bc Brazilian media did not replicate any of the decisions.
 
It should be, of course, a sad day for everyone interested in this case. This could mean a couple of extra years of litigation in Brazil.

Jack, I agree this appeal, if it is allowed to be heard at all, marks a sad day for all, and especially a sad day for Sean and David.  Of course, it is also a very sad day for Brazil.  We have to let the process play out.
You may have legal insight that I lack. But this idea that Sean Goldman's constitutional rights as a Brazilian citizen are somehow being violated by Judge Pinto's ruling makes no sense.  It is absurd.  This case falls under the Hague Convention; Sean's citizenship is not relevant.  Sean's rights as a Brazilian citizen?  Are you serious?  The judge did not consider this?  The judge did consider Sean's right to be with his biological father.  How can the idea of his rights as a Brazilian citizen take priority over that, or even be in conflict with that God-given right?
I am hearing some very strange things about the law in Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 03, 2009, 12:50:36 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25605
Thanks for reopening Mr D!

These are my questions for our esteemed friends from Brazil:

1.  I understand that a political party can file a motion under your laws... but doesn't that make the whole issue of separation of powers of which so many Brazilian have recent spoken fall to pieces?  Here, political parties are specifically forbidden from filing suit in matters that do not directly affect them.  An example was previously raised of the President intervening in RvW... but what if, say, the GOP filed suit along the same lines?  They simply can't do it - it's anathema to everything our constitutional democracy stands for.  Obviously, I have a long way to go to understand the Bz political/justice system.

2.  I'm still not clear on what the "section 172" or whatever it is may be... as the grounds for the appeal?  Is this essentially saying that Sean is a Brazilian national and therefore the Hauge Convention does not apply?

3.  In the US, a single Justice of the Supreme Court can accept an appeal, but he needs to be joined by at least another (as I understand it).  How does this work in Brazil?  Does the fact that one Justice has granted a stay guarantee that this will need to be heard in full, or can the STF summarily decline to hear the case?  (And, in you opinions, what do you think they are likely to do?)

Thank you, gentlemen.


I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but I think I've seen enough now that I can summarize the way the process works in Brazil.  It is basically...

(http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/267.jpg)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heather on June 03, 2009, 12:52:08 AM
:yeahthat: Good one Carlos lol
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 12:55:03 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25605
Thanks for reopening Mr D!
 
These are my questions for our esteemed friends from Brazil:
 
1. I understand that a political party can file a motion under your laws... but doesn't that make the whole issue of separation of powers of which so many Brazilian have recent spoken fall to pieces?
theoreticaly, no. Any party can fill an ADPF against any act made from an athourity wich is accused from violating a fundamental precept from the Constitution. A judge´s order is an act of authority that can be object from an ADPF.
 
Here, political parties are specifically forbidden from filing suit in matters that do not directly affect them. An example was previously raised of the President intervening in RvW... but what if, say, the GOP filed suit along the same lines? They simply can't do it - it's anathema to everything our constitutional democracy stands for. Obviously, I have a long way to go to understand the Bz political/justice system.
There is an understanding here in Brasil that party shall only fill ADPF and others proceedings if it directly affects their interest, but I don´t know what is the STF´s understanding about this issue, I believe it still didn´t make a decision clarifying it.
 
 
2. I'm still not clear on what the "section 172" or whatever it is may be... as the grounds for the appeal? Is this essentially saying that Sean is a Brazilian national and therefore the Hauge Convention does not apply?
172 is the number of the ADPF. They used many arguments, but, in my opinion only one has relevance (and a lot!!). They said the judge´s decision violates their right to have the case efectively analysed by the higher levels, as if Sean goes to USA, he will never return, and JPLS´s appeal will be useless. That´s a really strong argument.
 
3. In the US, a single Justice of the Supreme Court can accept an appeal, but he needs to be joined by at least another (as I understand it). How does this work in Brazil?
One Minister will decide if he accepts or not the procedure, the decision can be appealed to the Section (5 Ministers) or the main Court (all the eleven) depending on wich proceeding. Actually I am not very aware about how is the "appeals" inside the Supreme Court.

Does the fact that one Justice has granted a stay guarantee that this will need to be heard in full, or can the STF summarily decline to hear the case?
the others Ministers (all eleven) can change Marco Aurelio´s decision.
(And, in you opinions, what do you think they are likely to do?)
Unfortunately, I believe STF will decide Sean must stay in Brasil until the final judgement of the appeal, wich may happen at STJ or STF.
 
 
Thank you, gentlemen.

I was expecting such preliminary decision, but I was hoping some delay from the judge or from the second instance would make the appeal be analysed after Sean get to USA. But the "other side" made a smart move, they went directly to STF, where there is less work to do and preliminary decisions are very usual to be made at the same day...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 12:55:30 AM
Quote from: carlos;25641
I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but I think I've seen enough now that I can summarize the way the process works in Brazil.  It is basically...

(http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/267.jpg)


Have you got your child from Mexico yet?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: carlos;25641
I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but I think I've seen enough now that I can summarize the way the process works in Brazil. It is basically...
 
(http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/267.jpg)

 
 
Bahahahaha!!!:D
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Aida on June 03, 2009, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25476
Chris Smith should have a mandate to begin his congressional hearings immediately.
 
Trade embargos, travel warnings from the State Deparment, a suspension of tourist/student visas for Brazilian nationals, the withdrawal of accreditation of Brazilian diplomats in the United States, the closing of the Brazilian embassies and consulates.....all of it should be on the table now.

 
I will say......LETS GO FOR IT!!!!:cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jack Silva on June 03, 2009, 12:59:47 AM
Dear TomD
 
I am not a lawyer yet here but I am assuming that this was the argument used as basis for the STF decision, as well as the urgency requested by the lower court decision.
 
Usually, when the case is not "clear cut" for one side, injunctions can be difficult to maintain at higher court. Other party can allege that they have not been heard and there are appeals even for the clarification of decisions here (so called Embargos De Declaração). the PP diled a new suit stating that Sean is Brazilian, wanted to stay and is now being forced to move away by a lower court injunction.
 
If Sean happenas to be in the US, a Brazilian decision requesting Sean´s return to Brazil would never be executed in US territory.
 
I guess David´s legal strategy here was slightly wrong. He should have had someone in Brasilia, standing at the door of the STF to spot if a suspicious new case was filed, and call him and his lawyer to rush against it as sooon as it appeared.
 
But that´s life - now we all should get ready for some more years of litigation in Brazilia and in Rio.
 
 
Quote from: TomD;25639
Jack, I agree this appeal, if it is allowed to be heard at all, marks a sad day for all, and especially a sad day for Sean and David. Of course, it is also a very sad day for Brazil. We have to let the process play out.
You may have legal insight that I lack. But this idea that Sean Goldman's constitutional rights as a Brazilian citizen are somehow being violated by Judge Pinto's ruling makes no sense. It is absurd. This case falls under the Hague Convention; Sean's citizenship is not relevant. Sean's rights as a Brazilian citizen? Are you serious? The judge did not consider this? The judge did consider Sean's right to be with his biological father. How can the idea of his rights as a Brazilian citizen take priority over that, or even be in conflict with that God-given right?
I am hearing some very strange things about the law in Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jack Silva on June 03, 2009, 01:02:20 AM
I am half Brazilian; half american and your comment, to me, was disrespectful. There is good justice, and judges here and our legal system has qualities and flaws, such as the US system !
 
 
Quote from: Audax;25646
Bahahahaha!!!:D
Title: On CNN: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: FC_Florida on June 03, 2009, 01:04:41 AM
It's on the US wires already:

CNN

A little light for my taste, but at least it was the first headline on the "Latest News" link
 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/02/new.jersey.brazil.custody/index.html
 
Brazilian judge suspends order to reunite American boy and father




updated 1 hour, 52 minutes ago




(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_dg_BL.gif)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_dg_TL.gif)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/global/story_tools/text_size.gif)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/global/story_tools/txt_minus.gif) (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/global/story_tools/txt_minus_dn_.gif)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/global/story_tools/txt_plus.gif) (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/global/story_tools/txt_plus_dn.gif)

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) -- A Brazilian supreme court judge on Tuesday suspended a lower court's order that would have given custody of a 9-year-old boy to the U.S. consulate in Rio de Janeiro, where he was to be reunited with his American father.
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/US/06/02/new.jersey.brazil.custody/art.goldman.02.fam.jpg) David Goldman has been fighting for custody of his son, Sean, since his mother took him to Brazil in 2004.


(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif)


Judge Marco Aurelio argued against taking Sean Richard Goldman from what has been his home for almost five years to the United States "in an abrupt manner."
Doing so, he wrote in his order published on the supreme court's Web site, could subject the boy to psychological harm.
The decision, which means the entire Brazilian supreme court will take up the case, comes a day after a superior court justice ordered Sean taken Wednesday to the U.S. consulate in Rio and handed over to his father, David Goldman, who arrived Tuesday from New Jersey to pick up his son.
The two were separated in June 2004, when the boy's Brazilian mother, Bruna Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, told Goldman -- to whom she was then married -- that she was taking the boy on a two-week vacation to Brazil (http://"http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Brazil).
Mother and son never returned. Instead, Bianchi stayed in Brazil, where she divorced Goldman and remarried a Brazilian lawyer.
But last September, Bianchi's death during childbirth led Goldman to renew his efforts to regain custody of their son.
Don't Miss

Sean, who has been living with his half-sister and his stepfather, was to have spent a 30-day adaptation period in the United States prior to his father gaining full custody.
That prospect sparked outrage from a lawyer representing the boy's Brazilian relatives. "The child wasn't heard," lawyer Sergio Tostes said. "The child said many times that he wanted to stay in Brazil. This is not human and it is a cruelty."
The case has attracted high-level attention. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Hillary_Clinton) referred to the case Monday, telling reporters, "I also wanted just to take this opportunity to recognize the decision by the Brazilian federal court today ordering a young American boy, Sean Goldman, to be reunited with his father, David. It's taken a long time for this day to come, but we will work with the Goldman family and the Brazilian government, with the goal of ensuring this young boy's return."
David Goldman's lawyer, Patricia Apy, did not immediately respond to a message from CNN seeking comment.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 01:05:12 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25649
Dear TomD
 
I am not a lawyer yet here but I am assuming that this was the argument used as basis for the STF decision, as well as the urgency requested by the lower court decision.
 
Usually, when the case is not "clear cut" for one side, injunctions can be difficult to maintain at higher court. Other party can allege that they have not been heard and there are appeals even for the clarification of decisions here (so called Embargos De Declaração). the PP diled a new suit stating that Sean is Brazilian, wanted to stay and is now being forced to move away by a lower court injunction.
 
If Sean happenas to be in the US, a Brazilian decision requesting Sean´s return to Brazil would never be executed in US territory.
 
I guess David´s legal strategy here was slightly wrong. He should have had someone in Brasilia, standing at the door of the STF to spot if a suspicious new case was filed, and call him and his lawyer to rush against it as sooon as it appeared.
 
But that´s life - now we all should get ready for some more years of litigation in Brazilia and in Rio.

I don´t know Jack, I never imagined they would go directly to the STF, i thought they would use the "normal means". I think it was tottaly unexpected to everyone.
 
I have to say, it was a very smart move...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: Jack Silva;25650
I am half Brazilian; half american and your comment, to me, was disrespectful. There is good justice, and judges here and our legal system has qualities and flaws, such as the US system !

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. I am not American BTW. But I would laugh at this sign regardless of a country if something "shitty" would happen. I have friends in Rio and understand the difference between "the dark side" and the good people of Brazil..
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: FC_Florida on June 03, 2009, 01:06:37 AM
On NEW YORK POST
 
(Mmm...that should spark an outrage or 2)
 
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06022009/news/worldnews/brazil_suspends_american_dads_custody_of_172265.htm
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 03, 2009, 01:06:50 AM
Quote from: Câmara;25645
Have you got your child from Mexico yet?


No, not yet.  I'm in the appeals court now.  Once that's done the loser will file an "amparo directo" against the appeal's court decision claiming a constitutional right has been violated and then we can get a decision that is unappealable... in theory... and try to get it enforced..
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 01:08:33 AM
Quote
Originally Posted by JamesJosephs                (http://bringseanhome.org/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?p=25476#post25476)             
               Chris Smith should have a mandate to begin his congressional hearings immediately.
 
Trade embargos, travel warnings from the State Deparment, a suspension of tourist/student visas for Brazilian nationals, the withdrawal of accreditation of Brazilian diplomats in the United States, the closing of the Brazilian embassies and consulates.....all of it should be on the table now.

 

LOL... This post kept me laughing for a while. Good one my friend, good one.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 01:09:58 AM
they forgot to erase that post, as many others were a 1 1/2 hour ago.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 01:11:39 AM
Quote from: carlos;25655
No, not yet.  I'm in the appeals court now.  Once that's done the loser will file an "amparo directo" against the appeal's court decision claiming a constitutional right has been violated and then we can get a decision that is unappealable... in theory... and try to get it encorced..


I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully you'll have your son back as soon as possible :).
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: fixit on June 03, 2009, 01:11:54 AM
Quote
Originally Posted by JamesJosephs (http://bringseanhome.org/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?p=25476#post25476)
Chris Smith should have a mandate to begin his congressional hearings immediately.

Trade embargos, travel warnings from the State Deparment, a suspension of tourist/student visas for Brazilian nationals, the withdrawal of accreditation of Brazilian diplomats in the United States, the closing of the Brazilian embassies and consulates.....all of it should be on the table now.
[/I]

That would be nice.  And a government would be great if they would literally do all of that in one days time for its citizens.  Unfortunately, the US government is also one of the worst in the world.  Most Politicians (NOT ALL OF THEM) need to get something out of what they do, otherwise they can care less.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 01:12:17 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;25658
they forgot to erase that post, as many others were a 1 1/2 hour ago.

So, you mean that guy was actually being serious?! lol!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 03, 2009, 01:22:41 AM
Quote from: Câmara;25656
LOL... This post kept me laughing for a while. Good one my friend, good one.

 
Having trouble finding the humor in this Camara.....
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 01:34:25 AM
Quote from: noah3698;25665
Having trouble finding the humor in this Camara.....

It's called sarcasm.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 01:38:23 AM
Good night everyone! And David, should you read these comments, rest assured that we are behind you 100%.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 01:39:39 AM
Quote from: Audax;25670
Good night everyone! And David, should you read these comments, rest assured that we are behind you 100%.

Good night! :)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chicco on June 03, 2009, 02:18:44 AM
I am 100pct Brazilian but I am not offended by the opinions cruxifying our judicial system although I agree corruption and bad faith happens everywhere. I am sad, disappointed and ashamed with the decision tonight. When we finally had the chance to correct things after 5 years of stupid and unexcusable decisions supporting opportunistic and ironic lies, here comes the President of our Supreme Court and allows another tricky measure to bargain his ruling and protect once again the rights of a dominant and spoiled minority Brazilian class, used to get whatever they want no matter the cost or consequence to our society and values.
 
The judicial system reflects the society it protects. The unfortunate truth is that although the majority of Brazilians do not agree with what is going on in this case, we seem unable to change the course of action as in so many other key and relevant aspects of our lives. We lack in Brazil the fundamental values, moral and ethics that build stronger, opened and fair societies.
 
I am sorry for David, who is once again in Brazil hoping to see a legal decision ruled in his favour respected, only to find himself trapped by last second arbitrary legal changes one more time. I hope he keeps showing the same strenght to fight this new obstacle and that our Supreme Court rules on this issue in an expedite manner, so Sean and David can be reunited again and as soon as possible. There is no other reasonable ending for this matter and the longer it goes, shame on us. :mad2: :burn::cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 03, 2009, 02:23:09 AM
Quote from: carlos;25641
I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but I think I've seen enough now that I can summarize the way the process works in Brazil. It is basically...
 
(http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/267.jpg)
Thanks for the laugh Carlos!
:D
 
Quote from: André Felipe;25644
I was expecting such preliminary decision, but I was hoping some delay from the judge or from the second instance would make the appeal be analysed after Sean get to USA. But the "other side" made a smart move, they went directly to STF, where there is less work to do and preliminary decisions are very usual to be made at the same day...
So... according to Bz justice, it is fine to make Sean stay in Brazil while they hear the case, but - against the HAgue Convention - it would be wrong to return him to New Jersey where the true custody case should be heard? Is this what I'm hearing? If so, it is yet another misreading and ignoring of the the treaty to which Brazil is a signatory. Perhaps the Bz Central Authority would like to explain to all the parent of children returned to Bz why their kids ought to be back with their abductors....
:cloud:
 
Quote from: FC_Florida;25651
It's on the US wires already:
 
But last September, Bianchi's death during childbirth led Goldman to renew his efforts to regain custody of their son.
You know... it would be nice if the domestic news media could get the facts straight! David did not wait until Bruna passed to try to get Sean back!
 
Quote from: Câmara;25656
LOL... This post kept me laughing for a while. Good one my friend, good one.
No - it's quite serious. Maybe not to that extent, but there will be a trade war/boycott effort against Brazil if they screw this up.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: fixit on June 03, 2009, 02:31:15 AM
Quote from: Chicco;25676

the majority of Brazilians do not agree with what is going on in this case

What percent of Brazilian citizens do you think are against what the Brazilian courts are doing in this case?
 
Quote
I hope he keeps showing the same strenght to fight this new obstacle.

Nothing will stop David.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: KarmaGirl on June 03, 2009, 02:36:22 AM
Quote from: Chicco;25676
I am 100pct Brazilian but I am not offended by the opinions cruxifying our judicial system although I agree corruption and bad faith happens everywhere. I am sad, disappointed and ashamed with the decision tonight. When we finally had the chance to correct things after 5 years of stupid and unexcusable decisions supporting opportunistic and ironic lies, here comes the President of our Supreme Court and allows another tricky measure to bargain his ruling and protect once again the rights of a dominant and spoiled minority Brazilian class, used to get whatever they want no matter the cost or consequence to our society and values.
 
The judicial system reflects the society it protects. The unfortunate truth is that although the majority of Brazilians do not agree with what is going on in this case, we seem unable to change the course of action as in so many other key and relevant aspects of our lives. We lack in Brazil the fundamental values, moral and ethics that build stronger, opened and fair societies.
 
I am sorry for David, who is once again in Brazil hoping to see a legal decision ruled in his favour respected, only to find himself trapped by last second arbitrary legal changes one more time. I hope he keeps showing the same strenght to fight this new obstacle and that our Supreme Court rules on this issue in an expedite manner, so Sean and David can be reunited again and as soon as possible. There is no other reasonable ending for this matter and the longer it goes, shame on us. :mad2: :burn::cloud:

 
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS.  This kind of honesty keeps those of us who are fighting for Sean's return, GOING!  Pretending that the judicial system is fair in Brazil is just perpetuating the injustices.  You have to admit and see the corruption, inefficiencies and abuses of power and fight against it as a society, to ever change it.  I wish that Brazilians would literally rise up against their justice system today!
Justice delayed is justice denied.  If Sean is kept in Brazil a few more years while this drags out, then one of the biggest miscarriages of justice will have happened right under the world's nose.  We are all watching, powerless to do anything.
Yes, I'm calling, yes, I'm writing, yes I'm telling anyone who will listen about Sean and David's plight, but the real power lies with the Brazilian nationals.  THEY can march in the streets, organize, rise up against this corruption.  Change comes from within.
I appreciate your honesty!!!   It is cathartic for me tonight!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 03, 2009, 02:46:09 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;25644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckles  

1. I understand that a political party can file a motion under your laws... but doesn't that make the whole issue of separation of powers of which so many Brazilian have recent spoken fall to pieces?

theoreticaly, no. Any party can fill an ADPF against any act made from an athourity wich is accused from violating a fundamental precept from the Constitution. A judge´s order is an act of authority that can be object from an ADPF.

I'm still confused on this one.  So... a "disinterested" third-party can file an actual claim in court even if they have no standing in the case?  As Bob said, we have amicus, or "friend of the court" filings all the time.. but they are merely a supporting document, not the actual suit brought before the court.

What this essentially means is that any party can try to influence the decision in a case that may or may not concern them by filing suit, right?  That's Bz justice?

That's a joke.


Here, political parties are specifically forbidden from filing suit in matters that do not directly affect them. An example was previously raised of the President intervening in RvW... but what if, say, the GOP filed suit along the same lines? They simply can't do it - it's anathema to everything our constitutional democracy stands for. Obviously, I have a long way to go to understand the Bz political/justice system.

There is an understanding here in Brasil that party shall only fill ADPF and others proceedings if it directly affects their interest, but I don´t know what is the STF´s understanding about this issue, I believe it still didn´t make a decision clarifying it.

So... The PP folks can only file if the case involves the interest of their party?  If this is the case, it is clearly a situation where this idiot has filed a claim because to not do so might tarnish his reputation with his carioca (sp?) supporters.  In this country we call this influence peddling and it lands the legislator in jail.  Shame Bz doesn't have anything resembling the same corruption laws.


2. I'm still not clear on what the "section 172" or whatever it is may be... as the grounds for the appeal? Is this essentially saying that Sean is a Brazilian national and therefore the Hauge Convention does not apply?

172 is the number of the ADPF. They used many arguments, but, in my opinion only one has relevance (and a lot!!). They said the judge´s decision violates their right to have the case efectively analysed by the higher levels, as if Sean goes to USA, he will never return, and JPLS´s appeal will be useless. That´s a really strong argument.

Again, the Hague dictates that the "custody" case should be heard in NJ.  Anything else is pure BS and nothing but a stall tactic by anyone involved in making such a decision.  This is a judicial system that - while we previously thought was ill-informed at the lower state levels - is obviously not interested in the country's obligations under international treaties to which Bz has been a signatory.

This, by the way, is why Bz will feel the wrath of millions of people should they pursue this course of inane self-serving bullshit.


3. In the US, a single Justice of the Supreme Court can accept an appeal, but he needs to be joined by at least another (as I understand it). How does this work in Brazil?

One Minister will decide if he accepts or not the procedure, the decision can be appealed to the Section (5 Ministers) or the main Court (all the eleven) depending on wich proceeding. Actually I am not very aware about how is the "appeals" inside the Supreme Court.

Ok - thanks.

Does the fact that one Justice has granted a stay guarantee that this will need to be heard in full, or can the STF summarily decline to hear the case?
the others Ministers (all eleven) can change Marco Aurelio´s decision.
(And, in you opinions, what do you think they are likely to do?)

Unfortunately, I believe STF will decide Sean must stay in Brasil until the final judgement of the appeal, wich may happen at STJ or STF.  

Didn't answer the question:  does the court have the option of simply declining to hear the appeal?

Andre - thanks so much for your insight into the legal system in Brazil. It is very frustrating for us in the US who are accustomed to a much different degree of legal checks and balances.  We don't get it right all the time, but our system sure seems a lot more transparent and open to exposing conflicts of interest and influence peddling than yours in Bz.

That said, I applaud you for wanting to step into a legal system that is still, quite obviously, in its infant stage.  I hope you have the opportunity to play a huge role in its development.
:)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chicco on June 03, 2009, 02:51:13 AM
I have been following this case and participating in media forums in Brazil since the case became public last year. In my view, Brazilians with common sense or sinceer and independent interest to understand the case have no doubt about the case. Some of us were sorry for Sean, as this is never going to be a win-win situation for him, but we all know what is the right decision to take. Those still against are in vast majority people unfamiliar with the case or influenced by few opinion makers linked to the Brazilian family and the Lins and Silva.  If I had to rate I would put 60-65pct of the Brazilians that heard the case, no matter their social class, in favour of Sean returning to David in USA. If only our media here(especially Globo organizations) was more independent and this was probably a solved matter by now... At least they have became less partial, which is an improvement. (There is a blog at EPOCA Magazine this week, which is from Globo, defending Brazilian Government position to return Sean to David). Lets keep making noise and praying for David's nightmare to  end soon.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chicco on June 03, 2009, 03:06:17 AM
Quote from Fixit
 
I can personally assure you that this WILL NOT happen. The Brazilian courts don't have much time left to do the right thing. Their days are numbered.
Unquote
 
I sort of agree with the statement above. The move made by the Brazilian family today was a desperate one and we are going to have a lot of noise now. Besides, although it was a ridiculous decision, he did not ruled in favour or against the appeal. He only guaranteed the right for the appeal done to be appreciated by the Supreme Court. The fact that David is in Brazil to get his son back will only increase even further everyone´s attention and simpathy for him in this case. If he would go for a starve strike to force an expedite appreciation of the appeal by the 11 judges of the Supreme Court, I would be there next to him and probably many other Brazilian volunteers. The momentum is positive and I also think days are numbered and soon we should have both reunited. From my side I am activating all my Brazilian friends again, as most of us thought this one was finally over...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: tartine on June 03, 2009, 03:10:48 AM
This is a very sad morning, indeed.  I had a gut feeling I was going to see this sort of news here, today.  I'm so sorry for David and all his supporters.  
 
I have a feeling that David will never give up, and as long as he doesn't give up, his supporters will be there for him.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: fixit on June 03, 2009, 03:20:49 AM
Quote from: tartine;25686
This is a very sad morning, indeed. I had a gut feeling I was going to see this sort of news here, today.

Me too, I knew this was going to happen.  Thats why I didn't bother posting in the thread about yesterdays ruling.  Lots of happiness, then BAM!!  Anything coming from those courts is meaningless.
 
I'm curious to see what happens this week, at least with visitation.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 03:58:20 AM
We have to keep in mind also that what is printed in the Globo can be bought with dirty money.  If things are going Davids way, don't you think that camp evil would try and throw out as many mixed messages to get US worked up?  It's another one of their stall tactics, and considering how upset I read we are so far, it's working.

We've done to much right, we've done things in correct due process.  We haven't gone an done anything that we can't hold our heads up high about.  We will be rewarded in time.  It might not appear to be the way we ought to see fit, but it will happen.  This I must believe.....
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 03, 2009, 04:02:30 AM
:yeahthat:

Thata girl!

That's exactly the position we need to take.
Title: I told you the Supreme Court would suspend it - sorry for having been right
Post by: curious67 on June 03, 2009, 04:19:14 AM
http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showpost.php?p=25054&postcount=62
 
 exactly this has happened.
 
 Please don't blame me for having foreseen it with precision. I am sorry I was right. But I know the Brazilians quite well, having read their newspapers almost daily for decades
 
 http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-jun-02/supremo-decide-menino-sean-goldman-fica-brasil
 
Quote from: curious67;25054
Don't forget the Lins e Silva family have members in the entire court system and the most famous member of the family was Brazilian Superiour Court member, Minister of Justice, Attorney General and a few more posts just a few decades ago.
 
  I think Tostes did not put all the cards on the table. I believe that any judge at any higher court can order a stay. I bet on one of the Supreme court branches, just one judge is needed. The decision can come until 1 pm.
 

 
 http://www.hojenoticias.com.br/direito/ministro-do-stf-suspende-ida-do-menino-sean-para-os-estados-unidos/
 
 Note that conjur is a highly respected site with a google page rank of 6, which is very high for Brazil
 
 http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showpost.php?p=25054&postcount=62
 http://contenciosonet.blogspot.com/2009/06/caso-sean-goldman-justica-decide-que.html

============================================
Additionally, my earlier recommendations in this post
http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?t=763

were never followed. On the contrary, another similar post of mine was deleted (see the admin board where it was moved to) and I almost was banned.

I had suggested that extremely rigorous standards of proof need to be applied to prove every single fact, so that Lins e Silva's lies are proven wrong beyond reasonable doubt by evidence posted on this very site. And that an open-minded columnist, who ranted in favor of Lins e Silva, but who said she would it consider a crime if Goldman had been prevented from seeing his son, should have been furnished overwhelming evidence of this known fact which keeps being denied by Brazilian public opinion.

Maybe you should start providing such evidence now, better late then never.


Now notice that the Brazilian Press continues basically clueless, rarely mentions the Hague Convention, rarely mentions the entire story. They even rarely mention the "abduction", the dirty history of the case. The true legal details and the true history of the case has not been hammered home to the Brazilian populace, to the media leaders. They base their opinion on total ignorance and false rumors spread by Lins e Silva.

Worse, the press mention the Hague Convention in the sense that the kid needs protection and can NOT be moved from his residence (Brazil)

Once again, I am sorry for foreseeing correctly what will happen. Don't blame the messenger for the bad news.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 04:26:28 AM
Dude we know these things already.  But that's on Brazil to clean up it's information pipe lines.  If Brazilians are misinformed, that's their issue.  They aren't ruling, and if they are kept in the dark as much as everyone says how well they know Brazil, then they know pushing correct info out to them like we have been doing, isn't going to change a thing and it hasn't.

But I'm just saying.....
Title: Brazilian Public Opinion and Court Decisions
Post by: curious67 on June 03, 2009, 04:42:20 AM
Quote from: jdv28;25702
Dude we know these things already.  But that's on Brazil to clean up it's information pipe lines.
I thought you guys want to bring Sean home, and getting the truth out would be very useful for that
Quote from: jdv28;25702

If Brazilians are misinformed, that's their issue.  They aren't ruling,
That is what you think

Yes, the Brazilian Superior Court is capable of ignoring public opinion, if that protects their turf and their political pals.

Now guess what they will decide if they can do all this at the same time


Quote from: jdv28;25702

and if they are kept in the dark as much as everyone says how well they know Brazil, then they know pushing correct info out to them like we have been doing, isn't going to change a thing and it hasn't.

 
But I'm just saying.....

By the way, if someone has the links to the complete court papers and the complete decisions, please send me a private message so I can read them
Title: Globo can not be bought cheaply
Post by: curious67 on June 03, 2009, 04:47:43 AM
Quote from: jdv28;25692
We have to keep in mind also that what is printed in the Globo can be bought with dirty money.  If things are going Davids way, don't you think that camp evil would try and throw out as many mixed messages to get US worked up?  It's another one of their stall tactics, and considering how upset I read we are so far, it's working.
 

The owners of Globo are among the richest people on the planet, they are Billionaires. They are more powerful then the Brazilian president.

A couple of millions does not buy them.

They are not afraid to take on the government and denounce judicial corruption and scams.

Of course, they have some political agenda.

But if their journalists could be truly and profoundly convinced of the truth, they would take on the case. If they would not, there are other press products like Epoca, Veja, Isto É, Carta Capital, ........  Any one of them taking on the case would be an enormous boost and make all the difference in the world
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 03, 2009, 04:59:32 AM
You, sir, a reprobate troll.

But ya know what?  We're gonna let you keep on posting here till you catch yourself up in the same sort of web of lies that the heinous kidnappers that are holding Sean have stumbled into.  You know... the "I didn't know it was visitation day" or the "oops, I didn't really mean to try to change the name on the Birth Cirtificate" bullshit that has gone on.  So, freakshow... post away and let us tear you apart limb from limb.

(this is the official new Chuckles policy - unless I get tired of their lame-XXX BS)
Title: Re: Globo can not be bought cheaply
Post by: fixit on June 03, 2009, 05:27:48 AM
Quote from: curious67;25711
The owners of Globo are among the richest people on the planet, they are Billionaires. They are more powerful then the Brazilian president.
 
A couple of millions does not buy them.
 
They are not afraid to take on the government and denounce judicial corruption and scams.
 
Of course, they have some political agenda.
 
But if their journalists could be truly and profoundly convinced of the truth, they would take on the case. If they would not, there are other press products like Epoca, Veja, Isto É, Carta Capital, ........ Any one of them taking on the case would be an enormous boost and make all the difference in the world

The journalists at Globo don't see the wrong that the Brazilian courts are doing?  :conf:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 05:41:12 AM
Of course they are Billionairs, how else do you think they got so rich, ummm dirty money?

And don't take that finger tone with me about "I thought you wanted Sean home?"  We do and you know it.  If you want the facts, go dig them up yourself. We do NOT have to hand you sh!t, do your own research like we did ourselves.  Investigate earlier threads with loads of info that will answer your own questions.  Maybe if you dug up the truth and the info to support it, links are posted all over this site as well as others, your thought process would comply.  

Otherwise I agree with my friend Chuck.
Title: Re: I told you the Supreme Court would suspend it - sorry for having been right
Post by: sergiocesar on June 03, 2009, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: curious67;25701
(http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showpost.php?p=25054&postcount=62)
 
 exactly this has happened.
 
 Please don't blame me for having foreseen it with precision. I am sorry I was right. But I know the Brazilians quite well, having read their newspapers almost daily for decades
   SNIP......  Don't blame the messenger for the bad news.

This all is so unfortunate, unfair, wrong and any other adjective you can think of. deep down we all had the highest hopes this would be the end at 2PM today, and like me we ALL are being played by the $$ and corruption and should not be so naive to think so quick it was a done deal... Please lets not stick our heads in the sand and shoot the messenger here. LETS GET TO WORK doing what we do best and start calling.
I am still a believer that no one is above the law, so we got tripped once again, shake the dust and lets get our fingers working and PREPARE FOR THE NEXT ROUND.
Title: Re: I told you the Supreme Court would suspend it - sorry for having been right
Post by: jl2saint on June 03, 2009, 07:28:49 AM
Quote from: sergiocesar;25745
This all is so unfortunate, unfair, wrong and any other adjective you can think of. deep down we all had the highest hopes this would be the end at 2PM today, and like me we ALL are being played by the $$ and corruption and should not be so naive to think so quick it was a done deal... Please lets not stick our heads in the sand and shoot the messenger here. LETS GET TO WORK doing what we do best and start calling.
I am still a believer that no one is above the law, so we got tripped once again, shake the dust and lets get our fingers working and PREPARE FOR THE NEXT ROUND.

I guess that's what we have to do.......

I want to thank all of our Brazilian friends for all thier hard work and support. It is truly appreciated......

With that being said, you guys have your hands full. There are serious issues with your government and judicial system..........

The rich rule, apparently, and there is only justice for the wealthy and powerful.....

Sad state of affairs..........
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 07:33:21 AM
Maybe something will happen in our favor beings Smith is there and SOS is there.  

Anything can happen at the last minute, and tables can be turned on them while David leaves with Sean.

Just pray and send good energy their way.  We have a lot of it.  :cheer:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Katcoy on June 03, 2009, 07:41:02 AM
I have been following this case for a couple of years now and was HEART BROKEN to read on CNN.Com this morning that yet again the Brazilian Government is standing in the way of this man being with his son. I will continue to hope that the right thing will be done SOON and Sean will be back on US soil with his Dad.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: zaxmom on June 03, 2009, 07:42:37 AM
Dateline just aired and David was on!!!!!! It was sooooo sad.  He is going to try to see Sean today even though he CAN NOT take him home with him today.  His attny was on with him and explained this sneaky move that the pp made to keep Sean for the time being.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 07:44:35 AM
OK in lamens terms....what is happening?  Why has this been stalled and for how long?  Keep it simple for me please?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jackie in Upstate NY on June 03, 2009, 07:51:40 AM
NO MATTER - WE ARE ALL HERE TO STAY AND SUPPORT OUR PRIMARY EFFORTS  - SO KNOW THIS "DARK SIDE" ... WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP AND ARE NOT GOING AWAY ANYTIME SOON ! YEAH - MONEY TALKS ALRIGHT - WATCH WHAT THE CITIZENS OF THE U.S.A HAVE TO SAY AND THE REST OF THE TEAM BSH GLOBAL COMMUNITY HAVE TO SAY !!!! IF THIS DECISION TO RETURN SEAN ISN'T MADE QUICKLY AND RESOLVED PRONTO - BRAZIL, AS YOU KNOW IT, WILL BE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN WITH ITS ECONOMY AND YOUR VERY OWN PEOPLE MAY VERY WELL RUN YOU OUT OF THE COUNTRY ! AND ALL THIS BECAUSE YOU SIMPLY WILL NOT DO THE RIGHT THING REGARDING A YOUNG BOY AND HIS RIGHTFUL, HONORABLE, AND DECENT FATHER ! JUST KEEP DIGGING THAT HOLE DEEPER - YOU'LL SIMPLE NEVER BE ABLE TO GET OUT AND ITS ALL GOING TO COLLAPSE IN ON YOU ! NO SIR ---- WE AREN'T GOING AWAY !!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 07:55:17 AM
Love that fire.

Still what is happening with Sean?  What is the delay about?  I thought they didn't have time to appeal, and what did they have to appeal on?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dana on June 03, 2009, 07:58:53 AM
During the Today Show segment - Tostes stated that the HC was unconstitutional!!!!  Funny how it isn't when Brazil want's their kids back.  I want to barf!!!  I feel just awful for David and Sean.  I am praying that a miracle will happen today!!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 08:04:42 AM
Quote from: jdv28;25759
Love that fire.
 
Still what is happening with Sean? What is the delay about? I thought they didn't have time to appeal, and what did they have to appeal on?

What has happened is that a corrupt father and son lawyer team paid off an equally corrupt Brazilian politician from a minor political party to petition a single potentially corrupt justice on the Brazilian Supreme Court that the Hague Convention is unconstitutional under Brazilian law, despite the fact that these same lawyers accept five figure retainers from left behind parents to enforce their Hague Convention rights and attend conferences and seminars where they receive speaking engagement fees to speak about the merits and proper application of the Hague Convention and related topics, including parental alientation.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Evadc on June 03, 2009, 08:06:02 AM
LET'S BRING BACK THE TSUNAMI TO HELP DAVID!LET'S BOMBARD BRAZILIAN EMBASSY,BRAZILIAN CONGRESS,BRAZILIAN MEDIA WITH EMAILS AS WELL AS BOMBARD OUR REPRESENTATIVES HERE AT HOME.

What the Brazilian Government is doing to Sean/David is UNACCEPTABLE and a proof that there is NO respect or whatsoever to people.They have no morals.I'm so embarrassed.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jdv28 on June 03, 2009, 08:09:02 AM
I understand all that.  What I want to know is HOW did the order to return Sean get over turned?  Because they now want to say the HC is unconstitutional?

That's not an appeal!  There has to be an appeal to stop this!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Jackie in Upstate NY on June 03, 2009, 08:09:49 AM
Quote from: Evadc;25767
LET'S BRING BACK THE TSUNAMI TO HELP DAVID!LET'S BOMBARD BRAZILIAN EMBASSY,BRAZILIAN CONGRESS,BRAZILIAN MEDIA WITH EMAILS AS WELL AS BOMBARD OUR REPRESENTATIVES HERE AT HOME.
 
What the Brazilian Government is doing to Sean/David is UNACCEPTABLE and a proof that there is NO respect or whatsoever to people.They have no morals.I'm so embarrassed.
AGREED AGREED AGREED !!!!!! LET THEM HAVE IT !!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 03, 2009, 08:13:56 AM
I am so mad at these people now. Dormeles doing "favors" for his friends, this disgusting disgusting family..I woke up and remembered Sean can't leave and got very sad, as if he was part of my family, but emotions aside, I am still positive. Why? Because the eyes of the world are in Brazil now. This is too big. The outrage is felt everywhere. More and more people now know about the case. Those xxxxx just cannot get away with this craziness! And we won't stop fighting, never!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dana on June 03, 2009, 08:15:46 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25765
What has happened is that a corrupt father and son lawyer team paid off an equally corrupt Brazilian politician to petition a single potentially corrupt justice on the Brazilian Supreme Court that the Hague Convention is unconstitutional, despite the fact that these same lawyers accept five figure retainers from left behind parents to enforce their Hague Convention rights and attend conferences and seminars where they receive speaking engagement fees to speak about the merits and proper application of the Hague Convention and related topics, including parental alientation.

Any chance of this being overturned?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 08:22:41 AM
Quote from: jdv28;25768
I understand all that. What I want to know is HOW did the order to return Sean get over turned? Because they now want to say the HC is unconstitutional?
 
That's not an appeal! There has to be an appeal to stop this!

 
As I understand, the petition resulted in a temporary stay of the current order to send Sean home pending appeal.
 
How an insignificant political party has standing to petition in a case to which it is not a party, I have no idea. It would be akin to Ralph Nader bringing our Supreme Court to a grinding halt by filing a motion in a random case that he had nothing to do with.  He would be laughed out of the court.
 
How the Lins e Silva crime family is not immediately disbarred and imprisoned for the theft of hundreds of thousands of dollars for falsely representing left behind parents, I have less of an idea.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Mom25 on June 03, 2009, 08:25:31 AM
Political arena... now because old Dornelles... :mad2:
 
Of course, they had everything "ready to go".... Tostes and Dornelles had all together - Sean never even got to pack an item... it was an easy-quick-fix for them after Judge Pinto's order.... they were ready to appeal because they were expecting the worse - they KNOW they are at fault, but they (LeS) won't give up... remember that JPLS even said he would fight this cause all the way to the US courts? I know his chances would be slimmer to none, but he is not going to make this easier at all... they will want to gain time and time again... their ultimate plan is that eventually Sean will call the final shots.
 
As far as public opinion, in my own inbox they are pretty divided. I received emails yesterday saying how reputable/nice/stable PLS family is and how difficult would be for Sean to return... then I received emails saying "I hope this case does stay in the political arena"... and that's exactly what happened... lots of friends/family showing great disappointment.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: lisacallenwood on June 03, 2009, 08:26:01 AM
From what Patricia Apy said this morning on the news, this 'gnat' of a 'politcal party' is the one that filed something last week stating the Hague is 'unconstitutional'. It seems that based on those grounds, the stay has been filed.
 
I say, kick their pitiful butts to the curb just for being annoying and get Sean and David on that plane; AS ORDERED!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dana on June 03, 2009, 08:30:13 AM
Any chance of David's atty finding a loophole to wiggle through?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: bev on June 03, 2009, 08:33:26 AM
In reading the news, they are saying this could drag on for weeks or even months....what a tragedy...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: dana;25783
Any chance of David's atty finding a loophole to wiggle through?

As for whether David's attorney can petition for an injunction against the stay, I don't know.  It would not be unusual in the United States, but the United States is not Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: dana on June 03, 2009, 08:44:25 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25788
As for whether David's attorney can petition for an injunction against the stay, I don't know. It would not be unusual in the United States, but the United States is not Brazil.
So there is still some hope!  Thank you
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: jerseyite on June 03, 2009, 08:47:55 AM
This action by the Brazilian Supreme Court is outrageous, especially at the last minute. I have two small children myself and cannot even imagine the emotional roller coaster Mr. Goldman has been on. I am praying for you, Mr. Goldman, that you and your son return to Jersey ASAP. Best Wishes. TL. Haddonfield, NJ.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: tenorplus on June 03, 2009, 08:50:40 AM
This is a delay - but nonetheless a tragedy for David and Sean! It is another clear representation of the travesty of truth, justice and ethics. They (Lins e Silva and Bruna's family - plus the politicians, etc.) have made honesty and ethics to be a total mockery - sadly, a comedy! As angry as I/we are... let's pool our energies and create a plan of action, which si what the dark side is so good at. BUT WE ARE BETTER!!!!! We need to flood the emails and switchboards with calls - Pres. Obama, SOS Clinton, our congressional reps, every media source we can communicate with, Pres. Lula, the judicial system in Brazil... anyone and eveyone we can. THEY MUST BE STOPPED.
 
One other area to really hit hard and repeatedly until this is cleared up (which can be soon if they want!)... the UN and any/all international contacts we have! Brazil must be brought to international shame for their mishandling of this. They must be called to task for continued violation of The Hague and "thumbing" their noses at the entire international community. We MUST block any attempts at seats within the Security Council and other coveted positions in the UN and beyond. And also to bombard the Olympic Committee to block the advancement of Brazil/Rio for the games they so very much want...
 
And plead with our dear friends in Brazil/from Brazil to help us make every contact we need to in order to show the peoples of Brazil and the entire world just how rotten their judicial and political system is!!! This system even hurts their own people. Any nation mired in corruption destroys its own people - and positions its destiny at the lowest levels.
 
THE FIGHT IS ON!!!!!!!! Let's not despair. David and Sean need us now as much as ever... so let's get to work - FAST.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 08:52:54 AM
Ok, I'm not fully awake and just catching up on posts but I have to say Chicco, you are a breath of fresh air and if Brazil has any hope of improving its "justice" system, it rests on people like you who just cut to the chase and call it like it is, instead of dressing up the pig in a skirt and slapping lipstick on it.
 
If they think we are going to fold like a cheap suit they are delusional.
 
Also, I'm not sure I understand why curious67 got a smackdown - I thought they made some good points.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 08:53:39 AM
everyone should understand, that this petition filed by Dornelles, if approved by the Supreme Court would have DEVESTATING ramifications for ALL LBPs with children in Brazil.
 
Basically they are arguing that the Hague Convention is unconsitutional because it deprives Brazilian citizens (abducted children) of their rights of due process and protection under the Brazilian consitution by requiring abducting parents to send the children out of Brazil and back to their country of habitual residence to determine custody.
 
If the Brazilian Supreme Court agreed with Dornelles, then no child taken to Brazil by a Brazilian mother or father could be returned under the Hague. The Hague would become meaningless in Brazil as it would only be enforceable in cases where the child abducted to Brazil was not a Brazilian citizen (did not have a brazilian mother or father).
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Tracey276 on June 03, 2009, 08:54:52 AM
This is my first post on the forums. I have followed this outrageous injustice to Sean and David from the beginning. I've signed the petitions, etc and tried to help and followed all I could find.

Until yesterday when I heard he was going to come home, finally, I just couldn't bring myself to even talk about this. It just had me sooo emotional. Anger, sadness, disgust, etc. And let me add, my anger is also that more has not been done by the U.S. as well. This should never have gone on for this long!

I am so saddened to hear there is yet another delay in bringing this father and son together. Although, like David, I will never give up hope that he WILL come home! I am just praying it is soon. There has been enough damage and heartache for this father and son.

Praying and thinking of David and Sean and all of those involved in working so very hard to bring him home. We will rejoice one day when we see the pictures of the two of them TOGETHER,  coming off an airplane here in the U.S.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: rlw.mom on June 03, 2009, 08:55:13 AM
After watching the Today Show this AM.... I could tell there is a very small glimmer of hope today from Patricia Apys. We NEED to put pressure on our tops leaders RIGHT NOW!!! Therefore, they will put pressure on the top leaders of Brazil and have this stay thrown out.

Everyone, we need to act ASAP.

We need to BOMBARD with phone calls right now!!! Pick up the phone right now and call our leaders!

Call the White House (202) 456-1111

Call Hillary's office 202-647-4000

State Dept Brazil desk 202-647-2407
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: alleycat on June 03, 2009, 08:56:55 AM
yer all kidding me right. ? This is just plain down right insanity.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Curious5849 on June 03, 2009, 08:58:43 AM
I was so excited after following this story for almost a year to see that good results happen with persistance.  This has such an impact on me that I totally can NOT put myself in David's position, he has to be devistated. I will keep pray for Sean's return and for David's sanity.  My heart goes out to you David, please keep it up YOU CAN WIN!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ChristineS on June 03, 2009, 08:59:30 AM
Quote from: fixit;25682
I can personally assure you that this WILL NOT happen. The Brazilian courts don't have much time left to do the right thing. Their days are numbered.
 
(http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.ls1tech.com/get/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/secret.gif)

 
Fixit, I don't know who you are, but I am going to take your word for it that this is only a matter of days.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS
Post by: CarolCAN on June 03, 2009, 09:01:20 AM
Stop using profanity and curse words.  It doesn't look good when the media and others monitoring this site see it!
Title: Re: Globo can not be bought cheaply
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 09:01:25 AM
Quote from: curious67;25711
The owners of Globo are among the richest people on the planet, they are Billionaires. They are more powerful then the Brazilian president.
 
A couple of millions does not buy them.
 
They are not afraid to take on the government and denounce judicial corruption and scams.
 
Of course, they have some political agenda.
 
But if their journalists could be truly and profoundly convinced of the truth, they would take on the case. If they would not, there are other press products like Epoca, Veja, Isto É, Carta Capital, ........ Any one of them taking on the case would be an enormous boost and make all the difference in the world
They won't print the truth, don't you think we have tried?  They have been bought by the LeS family and won't print the truth, only the lies.  What do you think we've been doing here?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 09:12:09 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25800
everyone should understand, that this petition filed by Dornelles, if approved by the Supreme Court would have DEVESTATING ramifications for ALL LBPs with children in Brazil.
 
Basically they are arguing that the Hague Convention is unconsitutional because it deprives Brazilian citizens (abducted children) of their rights of due process and protection under the Brazilian consitution by requiring abducting parents to send the children out of Brazil and back to their place of residence to determine custody.
 
If the Brazilian Supreme Court agreed with Dornelles, then no child taken to Brazil by a Brazilian mother or father could be returned under the Hague. The Hague would become meaningless in Brazil as it would only be enforceable in cases where the child abducted to Brazil was not a Brazilian citizen (did not have a brazilian mother or father).

I know what you're saying and agree but the Hague Treaty appears practically meaningless in Brazil even now. If anything, the fact that Brazil is considered a signatory lulls LBPs into filing an application that from what we've seen, stands no realistic chance of succeeding in Brazil. If not for that, I expect most of these parents would have filed criminal charges against the abducting parent and the FBI/Interpol would have interceded on their behalf.
 
Certainly, it (filing criminal charges) worked amazingly well in the case of Roberta Lima (even though one difference in that case is that the abductor was an ex-fiance/bf not a husband).
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 03, 2009, 09:17:08 AM
This is torture, and I'm literally making myself sick following every twist and turn. I have to turn my computer off at least until I'm done working or I'll never get anything accomplished.
 
Bree, Gail, Grace, JamesJosephs, jl2saint, liesl78, LukieD, Teena, Tweinstein,
 
I have a favor to ask you guys. If there's an update can someone please shoot me an email? I am sending my work email to you in PM. I don't want to be in the dark but I just cannot have it consume me, and today it will.
:cloud:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 09:32:15 AM
I think BSH needs to think bigger than the White House at this time. It's great that we are all contacting anyone we can,and although the U.S. Government can put pressure on Brazil, it cannot do anything legally against Brazil. Sure, they can affect trade, etc...but I think it is time to make this an international issue! I think this needs to get to the United Nations. The focus is on this particular case, but we also need to put the focus on all of the other children around the world and the U.N. is the stage for that.

Sean will come back to the U.S. The question is how long will it take. The family is only digging their own grave. Sean, once he learns the truth, will reject this family flat out. Their money and wealth will mean nothing to him compared to the truth, the love and the dedication of the man who has been fighting for him. Lies only have power until they are discovered. Truth never loses its power.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 09:39:26 AM
Also, I want to say that I understand what Curious67 is saying.  Let's not beat him up for his honesty.  He IS trying to help.  He's trying to help everyone understand what the situation in Brazil is and how things operate there.  I know first hand that what he is saying it correct.  We have to think outside of the box on this one to get the attention on Brazil.  The Brazilian media giants like Globo will not report the entire story.  We might try some of the other networks like Rede, SBT, Band.  Maybe someone from Brazil can create a very detailed timeline of the case with documents supporting each and every fact and get them to someone at one of their news desks.  Maybe some of the contacts that members here have within the U.S. media know someone at one of these other Brazilian networks and can get those details to them.  The Brazilian people will never be convinced of the lies of the LeS family unless they hear this news, and they are NOT getting ALL the facts from the Brazilian media.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 09:42:17 AM
I'm curious.  Could a class-action type lawsuit be filed against Brazil by all LBPs worldwide for violation of the Hague Convention?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 09:42:44 AM
Quote from: todez;25836
Also, I want to say that I understand what Curious67 is saying. Let's not beat him up for his honesty. He IS trying to help. He's trying to help everyone understand what the situation in Brazil is and how things operate there. I know first hand that what he is saying it correct. We have to think outside of the box on this one to get the attention on Brazil. The Brazilian media giants like Globo will not report the entire story. We might try some of the other networks like Rede, SBT, Band. Maybe someone from Brazil can create a very detailed timeline of the case with documents supporting each and every fact and get them to someone at one of their news desks. Maybe some of the contacts that members here have within the U.S. media know someone at one of these other Brazilian networks and can get those details to them. The Brazilian people will never be convinced of the lies of the LeS family unless they hear this news, and they are NOT getting ALL the facts from the Brazilian media.
We have tried for months to get the media to report the truth and they won't.  They only report what the LeS family wants reported.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 09:54:20 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25677
Thanks for the laugh Carlos!
:D
 
So... according to Bz justice, it is fine to make Sean stay in Brazil while they hear the case, but - against the HAgue Convention - it would be wrong to return him to New Jersey where the true custody case should be heard?
the first level judge decided Sean must return immediately, but, he is at the first level, the other side has right to appeal and try to get a different decision from the higher level. There is no problem at all, legally speaking, keep Sean in BR until they decide the appeal. But, there is another problem, the slowness. I truly believe the higher levels will decide Sean must be with David, in US, the problem is when is going to happen the final decision.
 
 Is this what I'm hearing? If so, it is yet another misreading and ignoring of the the treaty to which Brazil is a signatory. Perhaps the Bz Central Authority would like to explain to all the parent of children returned to Bz why their kids ought to be back with their abductors....
:cloud:
 
You know... it would be nice if the domestic news media could get the facts straight! David did not wait until Bruna passed to try to get Sean back! The judge said it in his decisions,and many domestic media as well, Globo is not the only one media here.
 
No - it's quite serious. Maybe not to that extent, but there will be a trade war/boycott effort against Brazil if they screw this up.
in bottom of my heart I would hope it could work for David, but, unfortunatley the politicians of both countries seeks others interest that worth billions, I don´t think any official boycott would happen. By the way, since the beggining of his government, Lula worked for a making Brasil not so depedent from US´s market, and he is achieving his goal, right now, China is the main Brasil´s comercial partner. I think going to these ways will only damage David´s efforts.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 09:55:20 AM
I understand Gail.  What I'm suggesting is going around the media and somehow getting to the Brazilian people in another way.  I'm not creative enough to think of that, but maybe someone here has another idea.  I've been talking to people I know in Brazil and telling them about this story.  Most don't even know, but I talk to are surprised.   You know that 6-degrees of sepeation?  Maybe we send out a very detailed, fact filled e-mail to everyone that each of us knows, asking them to forward to everyone they know.  It's bound to go around the world and who knows, maybe some Brazilians living in America will get the e-mail and send it to thier friends back in Brazil who will start talking about it and put pressure on the government.  I don't know.  I'm just trying to think of anything I can to help at this point.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 09:57:43 AM
I also think that we need to talk to the Congressman helping David about getting a law passed in the U.S., that states a parent MUST get an official document signed by the other parent before being allowed to travel with any child.   And that the TSA, Border guards, the airlines, etc. need to verify it before allowing a child out of the country.  It would prevent cases like this from happening.  Brazil does have this law.
 
Here's a new post from the Today show:
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31079844/
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Mags on June 03, 2009, 10:02:02 AM
Oh my good god,  I heard word of this at 5:30 a.m. when my husband came barrelling in our bedroom telling me what he just heard on the news.  I was in shock.  I guess I shouldn't be because we all knew this family is capable of anything.  But to be soooo close and for a 'political party' put a stop to the ruling.  My God, that sounds unconstituional to me ! !
 
I saw David on the today show and my heart just goes out to him.  I am saying lots of prayers right now.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 10:03:21 AM
David did sign a travel consent.  I think it was for 2 weeks, but Bruna got around that one.....what needs to happen is Brazil needs to comply with the Hague.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:04:54 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25683
Andre - thanks so much for your insight into the legal system in Brazil. It is very frustrating for us in the US who are accustomed to a much different degree of legal checks and balances. We don't get it right all the time, but our system sure seems a lot more transparent and open to exposing conflicts of interest and influence peddling than yours in Bz.
 
Of course there is a lot of work to do to improve our legal system, specially making proceedings run faster, as now there is too much slowness, but we have many positive points in many areas.
About transparency, when STF decides about the ADPF, we brazilians will be abble to watch, a live, on the TV the judgment, and hear and see all the eleven Ministers voting. That´s something you can not see in your country and Europe.

 That said, I applaud you for wanting to step into a legal system that is still, quite obviously, in its infant stage. I hope you have the opportunity to play a huge role in its development.
I hope
:)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:05:20 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25683
Andre - thanks so much for your insight into the legal system in Brazil. It is very frustrating for us in the US who are accustomed to a much different degree of legal checks and balances. We don't get it right all the time, but our system sure seems a lot more transparent and open to exposing conflicts of interest and influence peddling than yours in Bz.
 
Of course there is a lot of work to do to improve our legal system, specially making proceedings run faster, as now there is too much slowness, but we have many positive points in many areas.
About transparency, when STF decides about the ADPF, we brazilians will be abble to watch, a live, on the TV the judgment, and hear and see all the eleven Ministers voting. That´s something you can not find in your country and Europe.

 That said, I applaud you for wanting to step into a legal system that is still, quite obviously, in its infant stage. I hope you have the opportunity to play a huge role in its development.
I hope
:)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 03, 2009, 10:06:32 AM
The judge said the taking of Sean was illegal and that the subsequent taking was also illegal.  So what, a kidnapper in Brazil is able to get an injunction on some technacality (of which there are many in every case) and gets to keep the child......Its insane!!!!!  Can't there be crimnal charges for abduction???
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 03, 2009, 10:08:22 AM
Quote from: Lexi;25637
This is exactly what I was thinking....what's even more confounding to me is it's not that the entire party or party leadership buys into it, but the head of the GOP can use the whole party because he wants to help his family friends.:eek: No wonder the LeS are pompous...
 
Oh one more thing....someone in the thread said perhaps the Federal court judge didn't consider the question of Sean's nationality. If I recall correctly (based on the highlights), he did and said it's not relevant.

Political parties in Brazil don't have chairpersons, have owners.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:08:25 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;25714
You, sir, a reprobate troll.
 
But ya know what? We're gonna let you keep on posting here till you catch yourself up in the same sort of web of lies that the heinous kidnappers that are holding Sean have stumbled into. You know... the "I didn't know it was visitation day" or the "oops, I didn't really mean to try to change the name on the Birth Cirtificate" bullshit that has gone on. So, freakshow... post away and let us tear you apart limb from limb.
 
(this is the official new Chuckles policy - unless I get tired of their lame-XXX BS)

there is a criminal lawsuit against JPLS because of that frustrated visitation day ("I didn´t know it was visitation day")
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:14:14 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25765
What has happened is that a corrupt father and son lawyer team paid off an equally corrupt Brazilian politician from a minor political party to petition a single potentially corrupt justice on the Brazilian Supreme Court that the Hague Convention is unconstitutional under Brazilian law, despite the fact that these same lawyers accept five figure retainers from left behind parents to enforce their Hague Convention rights and attend conferences and seminars where they receive speaking engagement fees to speak about the merits and proper application of the Hague Convention and related topics, including parental alientation.

The ADPF is not seeking for a declaration of "unconstitutional" of the Hague Convention. It was filled against the federal judge´s decision ordering the immediat return, only.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:19:23 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25800
everyone should understand, that this petition filed by Dornelles, if approved by the Supreme Court would have DEVESTATING ramifications for ALL LBPs with children in Brazil.
 
Basically they are arguing that the Hague Convention is unconsitutional because it deprives Brazilian citizens (abducted children) of their rights of due process and protection under the Brazilian consitution by requiring abducting parents to send the children out of Brazil and back to their country of habitual residence to determine custody.
 
If the Brazilian Supreme Court agreed with Dornelles, then no child taken to Brazil by a Brazilian mother or father could be returned under the Hague. The Hague would become meaningless in Brazil as it would only be enforceable in cases where the child abducted to Brazil was not a Brazilian citizen (did not have a brazilian mother or father).

The ADPF may damage other LBP as other judges will be less susceptive to order an imediate return, they may decide the kid must return, but they will have to say the child will have to stay if the other parent fill an apeal.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Shar on June 03, 2009, 10:26:25 AM
Quote from: todez;25832
I think BSH needs to think bigger than the White House at this time. It's great that we are all contacting anyone we can,and although the U.S. Government can put pressure on Brazil, it cannot do anything legally against Brazil. Sure, they can affect trade, etc...but I think it is time to make this an international issue! I think this needs to get to the United Nations. The focus is on this particular case, but we also need to put the focus on all of the other children around the world and the U.N. is the stage for that.

WE NEED BOTH...the U.S. Gov., including Obama and Hilary, AND the WORLD STAGE with massive exposure of Brazil's possible refutation of the Hague by it Supreme Court...at the behest of ONE RICH FAMILY with friends at high levels.  This would be a STEP BACKWARDS  for Brazil...TOWARDS THE HUMAN RIGHTS STONE AGE.

What about another Care2 Petition?  I don't want to "spread the signatures," but this is a new issue.  Brazil's Supreme Ct. and Executive Branch need to be urged NOT to take that step backwards.  They must act as a CIVILIZED nation to be taken seriously in this world.  The human rights of children are being treated as a joke with this insane personally-motivated maneuver.

The LES and Ribeiro's must have serious sway over Dornelles...He's willing to savage the population at large to aid and abet the crime of a few friends and influencers.  To Brazil's Supreme Court....PLEASE do the right thing and honor this international treaty.  RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS!!!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 10:27:23 AM
Quote from: roger;25873
Political parties in Brazil don't have chairpersons, have owners.

Surely you jest? On the other hand, given the circumstances, it makes perfect sense. Dornelles owns the Progressive Party and is himself seemingly owned by the LeS. Is there any chance the PP would go public? Then we could buy stock in them, fire Dornelles and sue him for breach of duty etc.
 
Seriously though, could you expand on that some. How does that work? Some individual(s) or corporations own various political parties and can basically have them do their bidding and push their agenda?? Well I guess there are special interest groups in the US but that's not the same thing.
 
The laughably named Progressive Party is regressing...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 10:27:54 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;25884
The ADPF may damage other LBP as other judges will be less susceptive to order an imediate return, they may decide the kid must return, but they will have to say the child will have to stay if the other parent fill an apeal.

My understanding is that the petition raises a question of whether the return under the Hague violates Brazilian constitutional rights of Sean.  For a matter to be addressed by the United States Supreme Court, it needs to rise to a constitutional level.  I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that similarly, the Brazilian Supreme Court only reviewed cases that might be unconstitutional.  
 
If there are no consititutional issues raised, why is the STF even entertaining the request by Dornelles?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 10:31:09 AM
Roger,
Can a media company own a political party? (Oh and can they be bought on eBay?) :D
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:35:00 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25894
My understanding is that the petition raises a question of whether the return under the Hague violates Brazilian constitutional rights of Sean. For a matter to be addressed by the United States Supreme Court, it needs to rise to a constitutional level. I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that similarly, the Brazilian Supreme Court only reviewed cases that might be unconstitutional.
 
If there are no consititutional issues raised, why is the STF even entertaining the request by Dornelles?

your understanding is wrong.
 
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=109082
 
I think there isn´t yeat a good translation (not google translation) for that news, but you would see you are making a wrong supposition. ADPF was filled against the decision, it not seeks a declarantion of unconstitutionaly of the HC, it seeks a decision from STF saying: "the immediate return of Sean of the first decision violate a constitutional precepts of the other part to have his appeal effective analysed by the higher levels"
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 10:39:38 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;25899
your understanding is wrong.
 
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=109082
 
I think there isn´t yeat a good translation (not google translation) for that news, but you would see you are making a wrong supposition. ADPF was filled against the decision, it not seeks a declarantion of unconstitutionaly of the HC, it seeks a decision from STF saying: "the immediate return of Sean of the first decision violate a constitutional precepts of the other part to have his appeal effective analysed my the higher levels"

So if "the immediate return" part of the Rio first level court decision is the only aspect that is unconsitutional, why should JPLSHT retain "temporary custody" of Sean in the meantime, since the first level court has voided that order.
 
What would "legally" prevent David from knocking on the door of the LES/Ribeiros compund with federal police as the sole surviving parent and take immediate custody of Sean since JPLS's temporary custody order has been voided by the Rio federal courts.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 03, 2009, 10:48:18 AM
Quote from: Lexi;25893
Surely you jest? On the other hand, given the circumstances, it makes perfect sense. Dornelles owns the Progressive Party and is himself seemingly owned by the LeS. Is there any chance the PP would go public? Then we could buy stock in them, fire Dornelles and sue him for breach of duty etc.
 
Seriously though, could you expand on that some. How does that work? Some individual(s) or corporations own various political parties and can basically have them do their bidding and push their agenda?? Well I guess there are special interest groups in the US but that's not the same thing.
 
The laughably named Progressive Party is regressing...

Small parties such as the Progressive Party has no constitutencies in the real world. One leader steps in and dictates how the party should vote on one issue or another in Congress, who should they ally with in the elections, etc. They don't actually represent or even try to represent real people. It's a small clique that leaves the offices once every four years (eight years in case of Senators) when it's time to run for reelection. These parties represent vested interests, not real people, and have no constitutuencies in the real world. That's what I meant.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 10:52:18 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25907
So if "the immediate return" part of the Rio first level court decision is the only aspect that is unconsitutional, why should JPLSHT retain "temporary custody" of Sean in the meantime, since the first level court has voided that order.
 
What would "legally" prevent David from knocking on the door of the LES/Ribeiros compund with federal police as the sole surviving parent and take immediate custody of Sean since JPLS's temporary custody order has been voided by the Rio federal courts.

that is something that was not clarified, i don´t know if Marco Aurelio can order: Sean must stay, but David has the full custody and when david be in Brasil Sean must be with him.
 
maybe the attorney can fill a request to the Minister to ask a declaration saying David has the full custody, although he can not leave the country with the boy. anyway, david can not be in Brasil all the time, who sean will be with when david return to US? he will have to be with JPLS...
 
in respect of all the members of this forun i am asnwerin your questions but i did not swallow anything you said yesterday and today to myself.
My protest.
 
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 03, 2009, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25907
So if "the immediate return" part of the Rio first level court decision is the only aspect that is unconsitutional, why should JPLSHT retain "temporary custody" of Sean in the meantime, since the first level court has voided that order.
 
What would "legally" prevent David from knocking on the door of the LES/Ribeiros compund with federal police as the sole surviving parent and take immediate custody of Sean since JPLS's temporary custody order has been voided by the Rio federal courts.

Once again, the decision by the lower-court has been stayed temporarily. This prevents David from knocking on the door with federal police.
 
Our Constitution has 250 articles. It has a bit for everyone. Everything is constitutional, and the Supreme Court does not get to say what cases it wants to hear. They must hear them all, and pretty much everything that touches the constitutional level.
 
Because the Supremes have had enough of it, and rightly so, a procedural reform is being passed whereby the Supreme Court will have a say about cases it wants to hear. They will have to have repercussions in the general population.
 
If I have a surgery and my health insurance does not cover it, I can sue the insurance company all the way up to the Supreme Court based on the Constitutional "principle of human dignity". That's how tricky the issue gets: everything in Brazil can relate to the Constitution and end up in the Supreme Court. Their subject-matter jurisdiction is very wide-open because the Constitution is very wide-open.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 11:01:48 AM
Quote from: roger;25929
Once again, the decision by the lower-court has been stayed temporarily. This prevents David from knocking on the door with federal police.
 
Our Constitution has 250 articles. It has a bit for everyone. Everything is constitutional, and the Supreme Court does not get to say what cases it wants to hear. They must hear them all, and pretty much everything that touches the constitutional level.
 
Because the Supremes have had enough of it, and rightly so, a procedural reform is being passed whereby the Supreme Court will have a say about cases it wants to hear. They will have to have repercussions in the general population.
 
If I have a surgery and my health insurance does not cover it, I can sue the insurance company all the way up to the Supreme Court based on the Constitutional "principle of human dignity". That's how tricky the issue gets: everything in Brazil can relate to the Constitution and end up in the Supreme Court. Their subject-matter jurisdiction is very wide-open because the Constitution is very wide-open.

 
What gave Dornelles standing to file this petition?
 
David's attorney made it clear on US morning news programs that she does not believe that Dornelles had standing to petition the STF in this case and that it should be thrown out.
 
Which side do you agree with, Dornelles or David's attorney?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 11:03:01 AM
Quote from: roger;25921
Small parties such as the Progressive Party has no constitutencies in the real world. One leader steps in and dictates how the party should vote on one issue or another in Congress, who should they ally with in the elections, etc. They don't actually represent or even try to represent real people. It's a small clique that leaves the offices once every four years (eight years in case of Senators) when it's time to run for reelection. These parties represent vested interests, not real people, and have no constitutuencies in the real world. That's what I meant.

OK, thanks for the explanation - that makes more sense now and actually, it also clarifies a couple of your posts from yesterday.
 
I have to say though, between that, the fact that Brazil has multiple (hundreds?) of political parties and also that any party can file an ADPF with the Supreme Court in an unrelated case, it all just seems like a recipe for gridlock and inefficiency. No wonder you said that most ordinary Brazilians don't bother resolving their disputes through the courts - they wouldn't stand a chance.
 
One thing I've been wondering all along is how foreign companies feel about doing business in Brazil considering what seems like a very tangled, unwieldy system. I'm curious because I know this is sometimes a disincentive to investing in other developing countries.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ChristineS on June 03, 2009, 11:06:49 AM
PeterThomas:
 
Thank you for your post. Regarding your comment:
Personally, I have always been an advocate of a child having both parents in their life. I still do not know how David and e Silva will, if ever, work that out. More than likely, that will be something Sean will have to figure out on his own in the coming years.
 
Sean has only one living parent - DAVID GOLDMAN. Sean lost all chances of having both parents in his life the day his mother died last August. JPLS is far from a parent. No parent would put their child through what JPLS has done to Sean. All of us here at BSH feel very strongly about this matter.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Audax on June 03, 2009, 11:10:46 AM
Quote from: Lexi;25893
Surely you jest? On the other hand, given the circumstances, it makes perfect sense. Dornelles owns the Progressive Party and is himself seemingly owned by the LeS. Is there any chance the PP would go public? Then we could buy stock in them, fire Dornelles and sue him for breach of duty etc.
 
Seriously though, could you expand on that some. How does that work? Some individual(s) or corporations own various political parties and can basically have them do their bidding and push their agenda?? Well I guess there are special interest groups in the US but that's not the same thing.
 
The laughably named Progressive Party is regressing...

Remember the former communist country GDR = German Democratic Republic and what happened to it? It's GONE! Dornelles' party is hiding their true interests behind their name. The actually want to regress back to dictatorship.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
I have to get going for now but can someone from BSH admin clarify what the plan is currently? I'm asking specifically with regard to media since I was under the impression that aspect of the campaign was on hold for a while. I think we need a strategy because there are aspects of this story that are falling through the cracks and they are the ones that will garner the most attention and hopefully fire up more outrage. Or is the plan to see how things unfold in the next couple of days and then move accordingly?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 03, 2009, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: Lexi;25938
OK, thanks for the explanation - that makes more sense now and actually, it also clarifies a couple of your posts from yesterday.
 
I have to say though, between that, the fact that Brazil has multiple (hundreds?) of political parties and also that any party can file an ADPF with the Supreme Court in an unrelated case, it all just seems like a recipe for gridlock and inefficiency. No wonder you said that most ordinary Brazilians don't bother resolving their disputes through the courts - they wouldn't stand a chance.
 
One thing I've been wondering all along is how foreign companies feel about doing business in Brazil considering what seems like a very tangled, unwieldy system. I'm curious because I know this is sometimes a disincentive to investing in other developing countries.

Foreign companies? They have access to a market of 200 million people, huge natural resources, cheaper labor and a welcoming culture. They learn to live in this very tangled and unwieldy system.  
 
For business disputes, Brazil now enjoys a very solid reputation in arbitration, with a very modern arbitration law. Companies do choose arbitration as their premier dispute resolution method. Most business disputes do not even get to court.
 
However, since family law is considered to be a matter of public policy and public interest, no private dispute resolution method except non-binding mediation is allowed. The arbitration law does not apply to family law.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 11:16:36 AM
Quote from: Audax;25943
Remember the former communist country GDR = German Democratic Republic and what happened to it? It's GONE! Dornelles' party is hiding their true interests behind their name. The actually want to regress back to dictatorship.

Interesting. I'll have to read up more about them because I've seen some Brazilian supporters describe them in unflattering terms such as saying they're insignificant etc. - they may be within Brazilian politics but they sure are stirring up trouble in this case (probably related). Ok, I'm out.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 11:21:38 AM
Quote from: Lexi;25938
OK, thanks for the explanation - that makes more sense now and actually, it also clarifies a couple of your posts from yesterday.
 
I have to say though, between that, the fact that Brazil has multiple (hundreds?) of political parties and also that any party can file an ADPF with the Supreme Court in an unrelated case, it all just seems like a recipe for gridlock and inefficiency. No wonder you said that most ordinary Brazilians don't bother resolving their disputes through the courts - they wouldn't stand a chance.
There are some Law experts that argue a party can not fill an ADPF if it doesn´t have relation directly to its interests. The law simply say a party can fill an ADPF, it not say if the party must have an interest to fill it. So, to resolve that, STF must decides if the party need to have interest or not, and the court didn´t decide about this issue yet. Maybe on this ADPF they decides about this issue.
 
One thing I've been wondering all along is how foreign companies feel about doing business in Brazil considering what seems like a very tangled, unwieldy system. I'm curious because I know this is sometimes a disincentive to investing in other developing countries.
There are a lot of problems not related to Judicial system, economic issues, etc that i also don´t understand how most part of foreign companies manage to be very profitable, as GM in Brasil is, I wish I would be an economist to answer that.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 11:23:35 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25907
So if "the immediate return" part of the Rio first level court decision is the only aspect that is unconsitutional, why should JPLSHT retain "temporary custody" of Sean in the meantime, since the first level court has voided that order.
 
What would "legally" prevent David from knocking on the door of the LES/Ribeiros compund with federal police as the sole surviving parent and take immediate custody of Sean since JPLS's temporary custody order has been voided by the Rio federal courts.
This is what I don't understand.  What is stopping David from taking his son from those people?  David is the only parent as the judge said that is the law in Brazil.  Okay, he can't leave Brazil until the appeal, but he can and should be able to take his son?  And if David has to travel back to the states, maybe his mother can come stay with Sean?  But I think he should legally be able to get his boy right now.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 03, 2009, 11:25:28 AM
Quote from: Audax;25943
Remember the former communist country GDR = German Democratic Republic and what happened to it? It's GONE! Dornelles' party is hiding their true interests behind their name. The actually want to regress back to dictatorship.

 
Dornelles party's philosophy is liberatarian, similar to the American Libertarian Party. Far right. As with any extreme political leanings, it does not have any popularity.
 
It's a joke. If they drop The Hague, I urge every man/woman in every country who has children with a Brazilian woman or man to open your eyes really hard, and never allow them to travel alone with the kids to Brazil.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 03, 2009, 11:27:13 AM
Quote from: André Felipe;25899
your understanding is wrong.
 
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=109082
 
I think there isn´t yeat a good translation (not google translation) for that news, but you would see you are making a wrong supposition. ADPF was filled against the decision, it not seeks a declarantion of unconstitutionaly of the HC, it seeks a decision from STF saying: "the immediate return of Sean of the first decision violate a constitutional precepts of the other part to have his appeal effective analysed by the higher levels"

Andre, What would have happened if Judge Pinto did not order the )

I think the reason we all got our hopes up was that the ruling was "immediate" and we hoped that JPLS would not be able to get his appeal reviewed within the 48 hours and Sean could get our of there. Judge Pinot should have made his ruling effective immediately (as in right away!) and they should have gone and removed Sean right then and there and put him on the next flight out. Why do you think he gave a 48-hour window?

-Chrissy

Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 03, 2009, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: gail;25951
This is what I don't understand. What is stopping David from taking his son from those people? David is the only parent as the judge said that is the law in Brazil. Okay, he can't leave Brazil until the appeal, but he can and should be able to take his son? And if David has to travel back to the states, maybe his mother can come stay with Sean? But I think he should legally be able to get his boy right now.

Gail, I agree: the boy needs to get out of JP's roof asap. And Silvana's for that matter.
 
They want the boy in Brazil? Fine, but let him live with his father then. Let's see how will they like the boy there living with David or Grandma Ellie. With limited visitation rights for them. I doubt they would like that.
 
The fact is that the case needs to be decided in the country of origin, and that is the USA.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: SageDad on June 03, 2009, 11:30:59 AM
Quote from: noah3698;25956
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Andre, What would have happened if Judge Pinto did not order the "immediate return" of Sean and said instead for example, "Sean is to be returned in 6 months".  Would JPLS  have appealed anyway during those six months but to the second level judge instead of the STF?

I think the reason we all got our hopes up was that the ruling was "immediate" and we hoped that JPLS would not be able to get his appeal reviewed within the 48 hours and Sean could get our of there.  Judge Pinot should have made his ruling effective immediately (as in right away!) and they should have gone and removed Sean right then and there and put him on the next flight out.  Why do you think he gave a 48-hour window?

-Chrissy


He would have waited till the last hour of the last day and then filed his appeal anyway and 6 mos would have been lost.  Judge Pinto did an admirable job.  I don't think he could have done it any better than he did.  I still think HT plans to appeal to the judge of second instance.. having pp file the adpf should leave him with standing to do so
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: roger on June 03, 2009, 11:42:29 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;25936
What gave Dornelles standing to file this petition?
 
David's attorney made it clear on US morning news programs that she does not believe that Dornelles had standing to petition the STF in this case and that it should be thrown out.
 
Which side do you agree with, Dornelles or David's attorney?

Although the political party is, at first glance, a legitimate party in such proceeding, I side with David's attorney due to the specifics of the case.
 
This does not happen in the real world in Brazil, but the law is written in the ideal world where political parties represent the interest of a sizable group of people, not of a well-connected family. That gives the parties legitimacy to argue almost every case involving public policy, such as how Brazil shall apply Hague in view of the Federal Constitution that protects children's rights.
 
I am not familiar with Supreme Courts precedents imposing or not limits in the scope of the activities of political parties as plaintiffs in the Supreme Court. Maybe André Felipe can help you on that one.
 
However, I would have thrown out the petition even if in theory PP was a legitimate party to file the proceeding, because it is so obviously a last-minute scheme to prevent Sean's immediate return. No Brazilian in this forum could get a political party to file such proceeding. Gaming the system is forbidden by law and must result in the dismissal of the case by the courts.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 11:43:14 AM
Quote from: noah3698;25956
ffice:office" />[/font][/color]

Andre, What would have happened if Judge Pinto did not order the )
he could not say "sean is to be returned in 6 months". The other possible decision would be: "I decide SEan must return to USA, after 15 days without any appeal from JPLS. If he appeals within 15 days, the boy shall stay in the country until the appeal´s judgement".
15 days is the time the looser side has to fill an appeal. If the looser side doesn´t appeal within 15 days,he loses forever, and the decison could be immediately obeyed.
 

I think the reason we all got our hopes up was that the ruling was "immediate" and we hoped that JPLS would not be able to get his appeal reviewed within the 48 hours and Sean could get our of there.
that was exactly my hope, as I knew an suspended order would be very likely to come.
 
Judge Pinot should have made his ruling effective immediately (as in right away!) and they should have gone and removed Sean right then and there and put him on the next flight out. Why do you think he gave a 48-hour window?
He can not make someone do something by force without giving the opportunity to obey the decision voluntarily.
The judge did everything he could do in order to help David to get his soon as soon as possible. He could not do more.


-Chrissy

Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 03, 2009, 11:43:56 AM
Quote from: gail;25951
This is what I don't understand. What is stopping David from taking his son from those people? David is the only parent as the judge said that is the law in Brazil. Okay, he can't leave Brazil until the appeal, but he can and should be able to take his son? And if David has to travel back to the states, maybe his mother can come stay with Sean? But I think he should legally be able to get his boy right now.

Because the STF judge temporarily suspended Judge Pinto's ruling so right now everything in his ruling is not enforceable, which includes his ruling that David has custody of Sean. So right now this stay as is...JPLS has Sean and God only knows what kind of garbage he is filling this boys head with.
 

Sounds like David is going to see Sean today. Since February, David has been allowed to see Sean when he is in Brazil but we all know that JPLS/Sylvana would do everything in their power (and it appears they have some) to stop it.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: noah3698;25983
Because the STF judge temporarily suspended Judge Pinto's ruling so right now everything in his ruling is not enforceable, which includes his ruling that David has custody of Sean. So right now this stay as is...JPLS has Sean and God only knows what kind of garbage he is filling this boys head with.
Actually, this situation was not well explained by STF´s website, it doesnt say how the custody issue will be from now. Maybe you are right.
 

Sounds like David is going to see Sean today. Since February, David has been allowed to see Sean when he is in Brazil but we all know that JPLS/Sylvana would do everything in their power (and it appears they have some) to stop it.

I don´t believe they would do everything to prevent David´s visit again, the last time they did it, by moving to another city on that saturday,they got a criminal lawsuit for disobeying a judge´s decision.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: elizrpoe on June 03, 2009, 11:52:13 AM
Chris Smith is in Brazil, correct? How about Hillary? Please tell me that along with Davids lawyers something can/ or is trying to be done to have this stay thrown out. It is founded on nothing of any real meaning. Any judge would have to see that
Title: Speed of Brazilian courts & Brazilian frame of mind
Post by: curious67 on June 03, 2009, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: ChristineS;25810
Fixit, I don't know who you are, but I am going to take your word for it that this is only a matter of days.

It seems to me that the entire Brazilian Supreme Court is bound to make a final decision (probably only on the stay, not on the case) soon, within weeks.

Now as everyone already has seen in the Goldman case, Brazilian courts can take any amount of time.

Even more so when it is convenient. Supreme court judges have been known to take court papers home for a couple of years, so a case can not be decided and will drag along until prescription. Sort of a judicial filibuster.

And, are you aware there are two Supreme Courts in Brazil?  You can always gain some more time by appealing to the other, if you lose your case at one of them

This has the potential of going on for a few more years, easily.

Just have the Supreme Court uphold the stay, and then let an appeal by Lins e Silva go through the Brazilian court system for a few years.

Probably Sean can go home when he is 18 years old.

Sorry again for being pessimistic. Yes, I could be wrong, but it does not look like Sean will get home in 2 weeks.

================================
What could be done?
a) a brilliant suggestion I read here was hitting the Brazilians where it hurts most. Olympic aspirations and United Nations aspirations. That probably gets understood.

b) I keep saying that the Brazilian public opinion is important. Plus the opinion of maior opinion makers in the press.
So an information campaign that does not just post "their" statements against "our" statements, but instead putting irrefutable publicly visible PROOF against "their" statements, could be of help.
===================================



  • Almost all Brazilians are unaware of the history of the case
  • Brazilians honestly think the kid should not be uprooted and disturbed.
  • It actually looks that Sean is not suffering profoundly, rather is well taken care of.
  • So right now things got inverted: the bad imperialist US wants to take a Brazilian citizen out of the country, against his will, away from his beloved family environment.
  • Brazilian law knows "usucapião": if you squat on a piece of land long enough, you can get legal title. And shantytown squatters who invaded land that is not theirs get a nice house as reward, in case they get evicted. So in other words: wrong done for a long time is rewarded, becomes right
  • Brazilians don't share the US attitude about upholding the law at all cost (they have the famous "jeitinho" to find some way out
  • I don't think that money and corruption plays as big a role as people here think: rather it is friendship and influence.
When I say Brazilians I mean

  • the general public
  • the press
  • and the legal profession
So somehow public opinion has to be swayed, and information is probably the only way accessible.


I probably will get attacked again for exposing serious problems .......


Once more:
Even the well informed Brazilian, who knows that wrong has been done years ago, that kidnapping has happened, even these think that nowadays the kid has adapted to a stable environment and that Mr. Goldman selfishly wants to uproot the child.

You can see, even the judge who ruled in favor invented this strange 1 month transition period to get the kid adapted to strange and dangerous America.

All this is very seductive argument, the only counter argument one can come up with is:

There was a Brazilian case where a child was kidnapped/stolen at birth at a hospital. It knows no other mother then the kidnapper. Still, 10 or 15 years later, the kid was returned to mother and the kidnapper tried. In spite of the upset it could cause to the kid.

The other counter argument that is shared by the US, that right is right and has to be put right no matter how much time has passed, is not as convincing to a Brazilian then it is to an American, as I explained above.

Go ahead, flame me more for telling the truth about how the Brazilian mind and Brazilian justice work.
Title: Re: Speed of Brazilian courts & Brazilian frame of mind
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 12:21:15 PM
Patricia Appy confirmed on Fox News that Dornelles application INDEED involves declaring the Hague Convention unconsititutional with respect to returning ANY children that have been abducted to Brazil by a Brazilian parent.
Title: Re: Speed of Brazilian courts & Brazilian frame of mind
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 12:28:25 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;26010
Patricia Appy confirmed on Fox News that Dornelles application INDEED involves declaring the Hague Convention unconsititutional with respect to returning ANY children that have been abducted to Brazil by a Brazilian parent.

until she says she read PP´s ADPF document, I prefer trust in what is written at STF´s website and Conjur.
 
Anyway, even if they argue HC is unconstitutional, it´s not a strong argument, I don´t think STF would decide HC is unconstitutional. They have, in my opinion, only one strong argument, wich i ´ve explained already.
Title: Re: Speed of Brazilian courts & Brazilian frame of mind
Post by: liesl78 on June 03, 2009, 12:28:35 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;26010
Patricia Appy confirmed on Fox News that Dornelles application INDEED involves declaring the Hague Convention unconsititutional with respect to returning ANY children that have been abducted to Brazil by a Brazilian parent.

 
Okay, so Brazil wants to be OFFICIALLY declared a haven for abductions...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: beth on June 03, 2009, 12:32:20 PM
That´s just absurd. Why did Brazil agreed to be part of the Hague Convention then? Only when it´s good for Brazilian LBP?

I don~t think that´s gonna work, they are just buying time.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 12:32:44 PM
curious67
I agree with everything that you have stated and I also understand how things work in Brazil.  You are exactly right.
Title: Re: Speed of Brazilian courts & Brazilian frame of mind
Post by: paigefaust10 on June 03, 2009, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;26010
Patricia Appy confirmed on Fox News that Dornelles application INDEED involves declaring the Hague Convention unconsititutional with respect to returning ANY children that have been abducted to Brazil by a Brazilian parent.

OK, I come back and have to read this crap? This is absolutely ludacris!!
 
So, if they're saying that the Hague is unconstitutional then what about all of the other children that the "The Dark Side" worked for in the past? Who are they going to work for in the future? Seriously....this is absolutely unacceptable. I can't believe that this is what they do for a living...what XXXXXXX hypocrites!!!! And I can't believe that the STF allowed this to happen due to the fact that BRAZIL SIGNED THE HAGUE!!! How can they possibly try and say it is unconstitutional? I'm sorry; I'm not politicially saavy so I apologize if I'm off on this one.
 
OMG, poor David...let down again...the look on his face on Dateline was just heart wrenching. The fact that he won't give up and that we won't give up is what's keeping me going. However, this roller coaster ride is seriously emotionally draining; I can't imagine what David is going through.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: liesl78 on June 03, 2009, 12:55:32 PM
Well, don't the LeS make money off Hague cases? Does that mean they'll go bankrupt if there is no more Hague?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
Just Because PP´s party wants it, doesn´t mean "Brazil" wants HC be declared unconstiutional.
 
I have sure two Ministers, Menezes Direito and Ellen Graice will decide it´s not unconstitutional.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: beth on June 03, 2009, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: noah3698;25557
This is the only thing I have read that makes sense tonight.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: HadleyMStJ on June 03, 2009, 01:36:18 PM
I'm new here as a registered member but have been lurking at this website for a few months now. As the child of a divorced Brazilian mother and American father, I feel for Sean and his father, both of whom are innocent bystanders in this tragedy. I hope the Brazilian justice system will finally get it right and put a stop to this circus.

Quote from: Grace;25953
Dornelles party's philosophy is liberatarian, similar to the American Libertarian Party. Far right. As with any extreme political leanings, it does not have any popularity.

But I have to say...this statement really offended me. I am a member of the Libertarian party and do not in any way agree with what the PP is doing. I'm not entirely sure where the far right classification is coming from? Anyhow, the Libertarian's view of individual rights have been perverted by a politician attempting to help a very hypocritical and desperate family.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 01:49:05 PM
Quote from: HadleyMStJ;26127
I'm new here as a registered member but have been lurking at this website for a few months now. As the child of a divorced Brazilian mother and American father, I feel for Sean and his father, both of whom are innocent bystanders in this tragedy. I hope the Brazilian justice system will finally get it right and put a stop to this circus.
 
 
 
But I have to say...this statement really offended me. I am a member of the Libertarian party and do not in any way agree with what the PP is doing. I'm not entirely sure where the far right classification is coming from? Anyhow, the Libertarian's view of individual rights have been perverted by a politician attempting to help a very hypocritical and desperate family.

actually, PP doesn´t look to me as a party wich has some doctrine or ideology, it always looked to me as a party who doesn´t have any flags, excepts the flag of "corruption". It may have some ideology, but all the politicians I know from there don´t have any!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Câmara on June 03, 2009, 01:54:27 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;26156
actually, PP doesn´t look to me as a party wich has some doctrine or ideology, it always looked to me as a party who doesn´t have any flags, excepts the flag of "corruption". It may have some ideology, but all the politicians I know from there don´t have any!


True.

I don't even care what party he is in since politics there change parties as they change clothes :rolleyes:.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Luc on June 03, 2009, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: todez;26037
curious67
I agree with everything that you have stated and I also understand how things work in Brazil.  You are exactly right.


I also agree with what you said, curious. The misinformation in Brazil is scary! People assume that the best for the Sean is to stay where he is, they did not read the judges ruling and the psychologist report! They trust that Lins e Silva is a good guy from good family ( rich!) .They don't know how nasty they are and how much damage they are doing to Sean. I just watched a TV show talking about the case: there were two attorneys, one said Sean should go because its the law and the other said Sean should stay because its better for him! It was a bit shocking they did not read the judges ruling and they assume Sean is well taken care off. Sean should come to the USA because it's the law and it's better for him!That's the message we are failing to spread there.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 02:19:36 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;26072
Just Because PP´s party wants it, doesn´t mean "Brazil" wants HC be declared unconstiutional.
 
I have sure two Ministers, Menezes Direito and Ellen Graice will decide it´s not unconstitutional.
They are not allowing him to see Sean?  How can this happen?  They should not have custody of Sean.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: André Felipe on June 03, 2009, 02:32:13 PM
Quote from: gail;26211
They are not allowing him to see Sean? How can this happen? They should not have custody of Sean.

what? I didn´t understand it, who said they (who are they)didn´t let David see Sean?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 03, 2009, 02:37:27 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;26234
what? I didn´t understand it, who said they (who are they)didn´t let David see Sean?

 
Patricia Appy stated that when David went to see Sean this morning, they initially lied and stated that he wasn't there. After they were called out on their lie, they admitted that Sean was there but stated he was too upset to see David and told David to come back at 2:00 p.m.
 
I assume "they" means Silvana.
 
No further update yet.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 03, 2009, 02:38:44 PM
Wow....these people need to go to hell....can't they be arrested on the spot for not obeying the visition order

Isn't that the executive's job...to enforce these descions....How can they not be arrested.???
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 02:40:01 PM
This sickens me.  He should be removed from the home.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: noah3698 on June 03, 2009, 02:40:40 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;26252
Patricia Appy stated that when David went to see Sean this morning, they initially lied and stated that he wasn't there. After they were called out on their lie, they admitted that Sean was there but stated he was too upset to see David and told David to come back at 2:00 p.m.
 
I assume "they" means Silvana.
 
No further update yet.

Where is the justice in this?  I knew this horrible family would do this.  As Dr. Phil always says "The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior".
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: joey2051 on June 03, 2009, 02:41:27 PM
Wasn't it taking David months to get his case (against Bruna) to the superiour court...and they can do it in one day....This is a joke.......
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 02:41:51 PM
Even though I don't care for Dr. Phil, I would have to agree with that statement.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathy on June 03, 2009, 02:55:19 PM
Okay when david does see sean can someone post something here..I'm just curious as to what kinda coaching their going to give sean before he sees his dad.....This just makes me sooo flippin mad
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 03:24:58 PM
Quote from: roger;25946
Foreign companies? They have access to a market of 200 million people, huge natural resources, cheaper labor and a welcoming culture. They learn to live in this very tangled and unwieldy system.
 
For business disputes, Brazil now enjoys a very solid reputation in arbitration, with a very modern arbitration law. Companies do choose arbitration as their premier dispute resolution method. Most business disputes do not even get to court.
 
However, since family law is considered to be a matter of public policy and public interest, no private dispute resolution method except non-binding mediation is allowed. The arbitration law does not apply to family law.

Roger,
For sure, Brazil has attractive investment attributes - if it didn't, my question wouldn't be particularly relevant. I was just curious because there are others countries that have similar investment features - large and growing middle class, natural resources etc., but especially in the past, some foreign companies would still be reticent to invest directly because of poor infrastructure and byzantine legal systems. Anyway, you answered my question, thanks.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 03:33:40 PM
Can anyone tell me: has David actually recieved any threats against him?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: liesl78 on June 03, 2009, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: todez;26358
Can anyone tell me: has David actually recieved any threats against him?

Yes, he told the story on the first Dateline show. He even found cigarette butts on his porch. The FBI told him to go away for a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 03:37:58 PM
Quote from: liesl78;26363
Yes, he told the story on the first Dateline show. He even found cigarette butts on his porch. The FBI told him to go away for a couple of weeks.

Do you happen to have a link to that show?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: liesl78 on June 03, 2009, 03:42:44 PM
Quote from: todez;26369
Do you happen to have a link to that show?

http://bringseanhome.org/dateline.html
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: fixit on June 03, 2009, 03:43:21 PM
Quote from: jdv28;25755
OK in lamens terms....what is happening? Why has this been stalled and for how long? Keep it simple for me please?

Basically.
 
Sean was never coming home.
 
Paulo Silva and his lawyers, as well as the judges already knew this the week before any of this ever happened this week.
 
The judges are all in this together.
 
Its 100% corruption.
 
Simple as that.
 
The courts, Hillary, Congressman, Obama (because they are all powerless in this mess) or anyone else will not be the people that will bring Sean home.  It will be something/someone else that brings Sean home.  Hopefully that something/someone else can do this sooner, rather than later.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: todez on June 03, 2009, 03:46:30 PM
Quote from: liesl78;26378
http://bringseanhome.org/dateline.html

Thank you!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Lexi on June 03, 2009, 03:46:52 PM
ANDRE
 
OK, thanks for the explanation - that makes more sense now and actually, it also clarifies a couple of your posts from yesterday.

I have to say though, between that, the fact that Brazil has multiple (hundreds?) of political parties and also that any party can file an ADPF with the Supreme Court in an unrelated case, it all just seems like a recipe for gridlock and inefficiency. No wonder you said that most ordinary Brazilians don't bother resolving their disputes through the courts - they wouldn't stand a chance.
There are some Law experts that argue a party can not fill an ADPF if it doesn´t have relation directly to its interests. The law simply say a party can fill an ADPF, it not say if the party must have an interest to fill it. So, to resolve that, STF must decides if the party need to have interest or not, and the court didn´t decide about this issue yet. Maybe on this ADPF they decides about this issue.

 
Well that makes sense to me or else it would be open season and any political party can file for some hokey reason to throw a case....which is exactly what seems to be happening now. That just seems so undemocratic and unfair, to allow special interest groups to abuse their power this way, through a senator no less.

One thing I've been wondering all along is how foreign companies feel about doing business in Brazil considering what seems like a very tangled, unwieldy system. I'm curious because I know this is sometimes a disincentive to investing in other developing countries.
There are a lot of problems not related to Judicial system, economic issues, etc that i also don´t understand how most part of foreign companies manage to be very profitable, as GM in Brasil is, I wish I would be an economist to answer that.
 
I think foreign companies in general are becoming more experienced and adept at operating in developing countries (um...I may be answering my own question :))
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 03, 2009, 04:00:53 PM
Quote from: curious67;25994
I keep saying that the Brazilian public opinion is important. Plus the opinion of maior opinion makers in the press.
So an information campaign that does not just post "their" statements against "our" statements, but instead putting irrefutable publicly visible PROOF against "their" statements, could be of help.
----
So somehow public opinion has to be swayed, and information is probably the only way accessible.
----
Go ahead, flame me more for telling the truth about how the Brazilian mind and Brazilian justice work.
You got flamed because I - and others - think there is a concerted effort by some newly-registered members to break the will of BSH supporters.  The case being made is akin to telling a woman being raped that she might as well enjoy it because that's just the way it is.  If I am wrong about thinking you may be a part of that, I do apologize...  but, in any event, such a distraction will never happen.  

Suggestions are being made to focus on the UN, Olympics, etc. rather than on the very legal issues that are at play here.  It is a diversion tactic that will not take our eye off the ball in the Goldman case, and all legal avenues will be pursued.  That said, you can bet your bottom dollar that these other tactics will indeed be pursued as a way of bringing attention to Brazil's evident willingness to have state-sponsored international child abduction among its operating principals as a part of our ongoing campaign to secure the repatriation of all children illegally taken to your country.  There will be no lack of political pressure brought to bear, be assured.

You say an "awareness campaign" is needed.  Well, yes.  Just what do you propose could any more plainly make the case that the LeS cabal has lied, cheated and hypocritically manipulated their way to holding Sean for these many years than the decision rendered yesterday by Judge Pinto? It is nothing if not a point-by-point analysis of the incredibly devious and dishonorable campaign they have waged to illegally retain Sean.  If you want to scream it from the highest rooftop, please do; we need all the help we can get exposing these cretins for the criminals they are and the Bz justice system for the farce it is. We'd love to hear what you are doing to broadcast this message - got any links to posts you've made somewhere... any emails you've sent to people of influence demonstrating your support of our cause?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: ENR on June 03, 2009, 04:24:58 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;26428
You got flamed because I - and others - think there is a concerted effort by some newly-registered members to break the will of BSH supporters.  The case being made is akin to telling a woman being raped that she might as well enjoy it because that's just the way it is.  If I am wrong about thinking you may be a part of that, I do apologize...  but, in any event, such a distraction will never happen.  

Suggestions are being made to focus on the UN, Olympics, etc. rather than on the very legal issues that are at play here.  It is a diversion tactic that will not take our eye off the ball in the Goldman case, and all legal avenues will be pursued.  That said, you can bet your bottom dollar that these other tactics will indeed be pursued as a way of bringing attention to Brazil's evident willingness to have state-sponsored international child abduction among its operating principals as a part of our ongoing campaign to secure the repatriation of all children illegally taken to your country.  There will be no lack of political pressure brought to bear, be assured.

You say an "awareness campaign" is needed.  Well, yes.  Just what do you propose could any more plainly make the case that the LeS cabal has lied, cheated and hypocritically manipulated their way to holding Sean for these many years than the decision rendered yesterday by Judge Pinto? It is nothing if not a point-by-point analysis of the incredibly devious and dishonorable campaign they have waged to illegally retain Sean.  If you want to scream it from the highest rooftop, please do; we need all the help we can get exposing these cretins for the criminals they are and the Bz justice system for the farce it is. We'd love to hear what you are doing to broadcast this message - got any links to posts you've made somewhere... any emails you've sent to people of influence demonstrating your support of our cause?


Well said Chuck!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: tenorplus on June 03, 2009, 04:33:54 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;26428
You got flamed because I - and others - think there is a concerted effort by some newly-registered members to break the will of BSH supporters. The case being made is akin to telling a woman being raped that she might as well enjoy it because that's just the way it is. If I am wrong about thinking you may be a part of that, I do apologize... but, in any event, such a distraction will never happen.
 
Suggestions are being made to focus on the UN, Olympics, etc. rather than on the very legal issues that are at play here. It is a diversion tactic that will not take our eye off the ball in the Goldman case, and all legal avenues will be pursued. That said, you can bet your bottom dollar that these other tactics will indeed be pursued as a way of bringing attention to Brazil's evident willingness to have state-sponsored international child abduction among its operating principals as a part of our ongoing campaign to secure the repatriation of all children illegally taken to your country. There will be no lack of political pressure brought to bear, be assured.
 
You say an "awareness campaign" is needed. Well, yes. Just what do you propose could any more plainly make the case that the LeS cabal has lied, cheated and hypocritically manipulated their way to holding Sean for these many years than the decision rendered yesterday by Judge Pinto? It is nothing if not a point-by-point analysis of the incredibly devious and dishonorable campaign they have waged to illegally retain Sean. If you want to scream it from the highest rooftop, please do; we need all the help we can get exposing these cretins for the criminals they are and the Bz justice system for the farce it is. We'd love to hear what you are doing to broadcast this message - got any links to posts you've made somewhere... any emails you've sent to people of influence demonstrating your support of our cause?

WELL STATED. We want to move this forward... not backward! Thanks.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: sue on June 03, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
Yes, these people have no right keeping Sean from his father and only living parent.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathy on June 03, 2009, 05:47:11 PM
No no right at all keeping Sean ..If we cannot get the the Brazil judicial system on the same page as the Hague then how the hell are we going to get the rest of our children the heck out of there...they need to abide by the treatys they signed..They want to reap the bennies cause they signed the treaty...  well guess what one hand washes the other......Send Sean and all the other children home...No one has right over a biological parent no one!!!!!!
Title: Turn around Brazilian public opinion! Disprove wrong allegations!
Post by: curious67 on June 04, 2009, 06:09:46 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;26428
You got flamed because I - and others - think there is a concerted effort by some newly-registered members to break the will of BSH supporters.
I had no idea.

I would not waste my time for such an enterprise. Of course, maybe if Lins e Silva pay well, maybe they can get such people.

Now I thing telling the sad and shocking plain truth, being prepared for the worst is a more efficient way to get a solution then self deception and blind positive thinking that will simply be proven wrong.

Quote from: Chuckles;26428
The case being made is akin to telling a woman being raped that she might as well enjoy it because that's just the way it is.  
The woman should be very aware of the local customs to avoid being raped. When in Arabia, wear a veil, for example, and don't drive a car if you don't have to and bring a chaperon male relative to accompany you at all times. If you neglect this, don't be surprised about the consequences. And no, I don't agree with the consequences, but they are to be expected (if it is not rape, then it is whip lashing or expulsion from the country)
Quote from: Chuckles;26428
If I am wrong about thinking you may be a part of that, I do apologize...  but, in any event, such a distraction will never happen.  

Suggestions are being made to focus on the UN, Olympics, etc. rather than on the very legal issues that are at play here.  It is a diversion tactic that will not take our eye off the ball in the Goldman case, and all legal avenues will be pursued.  That said, you can bet your bottom dollar that these other tactics will indeed be pursued as a way of bringing attention to Brazil's evident willingness to have state-sponsored international child abduction among its operating principals as a part of our ongoing campaign to secure the repatriation of all children illegally taken to your country.  There will be no lack of political pressure brought to bear, be assured.
I mentioned a few times that Goldman is too nice a guy. Of course that is his decision if he avoids anything that is even remotely "dirty" tactics. But Mr. Nice Guy has a disadvantage against Mr Mudslinger

Quote from: Chuckles;26428
You say an "awareness campaign" is needed.  Well, yes.  
This is what I keep hammering home and what does not get done.

I just read a few Brazilian blogs (public comments to articles) on the conjur website. The web site is highly relevant because it shows the thinking of the Brazilian legal elite.

It shows interesting arguments (yes, there are honest people in Brazil who side with Lins e Silva for honest legal reasons, though they usually are somewhat misinformed) that should not be overlooked like

  • Brazilian constitution should override international treaties
  • the well being of the child is the main issue in Brazilian. And it is not unreasonable to say that it is cruel to take away a child from his siblings, his school, even his language, his substitute step parent, ...
The well being of the child is an important issue. That should be addressed in lot of detail.  A few hints

  • cite psychological academic research about child abuse risk being MUCH higher in step families then with bloodline parents
  • find examples like:
    • if a Brazilian parent moves to the US, like a student, would they prevent them from taking a kid with them because it is too traumatic?
    • how common is it in Brazil that a stepfather gets to keep a child, if a father who lived in a remote city in Brazil wants to take the child

In general, it is interesting to read comments to the articles in conjur

http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-mar-15/eua-desrespeitam-independencia-judiciario-oab-sean/c/1

For example the liken this to Brazil taking up Mr Biggs, the bank robber, and Mr. Battisti (?) the Italian killer terrorist. Interesting sideline.


THIS guy is our friend>>
http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-abr-15/brasil-foi-negligente-permitir-rentecao-sean-goldman-pais
I think he was the guy that wrote another highly positive article, his articles should be promoted

It is very important to study the comments to the articles
http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-abr-15/brasil-foi-negligente-permitir-rentecao-sean-goldman-pais/c/1
amazingly only positive comments! Read them

http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-mar-14/imprudente-manter-menino-norte-americano-situacao-irregular-pais

This is what needs to be propagated in Brazil. A Brazilian Legal Scholar making an airtight argument

Quote from: Chuckles;26428

Just what do you propose could any more plainly make the case that the LeS cabal has lied, cheated and hypocritically manipulated their way
Believe it or not, but lies in Brazil are fairly normal. All politicians lie, steal, get caught, and soon all is forgotten and they get reelected.

A famous saying about politicians is: "rouba mas faz". He steals but gets things done.

Still, that point should be driven home
Quote from: Chuckles;26428
to holding Sean for these many years than the decision rendered yesterday by Judge Pinto? It is nothing if not a point-by-point analysis of the incredibly devious and dishonorable campaign they have waged to illegally retain Sean.

I keep asking: where is the decision? please quote, best via PM so I don't miss it?
Quote from: Chuckles;26428

 If you want to scream it from the highest rooftop, please do; we need all the help we can get exposing these cretins for the criminals they are and the Bz justice system for the farce it is. We'd love to hear what you are doing to broadcast this message - got any links to posts you've made somewhere... any emails you've sent to people of influence demonstrating your support of our cause?
I have no special contacts to be very efficient at exerting influence.

Also I live here as a foreigner and do not need to attract negative attention to myself.

I am willing to advise you guys to do your work more efficiently, but i generally get flamed or even deleted.

My first article was an aggressive way to try to shake you guys up to fix what I see as an important flaw.

Now I have a pretty good feeling for Brazil. Look, i was the only one that correctly predicted, on this board: One single Superior Court judge will put up a stay to the court order.

Maybe I have good gut feeling for the Brazilian legal system and mentality!!


** Now I suggest 2 lines:
a) the Brazilian legalese way, all articles by judge Nogueira should be republished, translated, he should be contacted, etc.

b) I keep seeing the argument that Goldman did not see his kid for 4 years and is a negligent father. (I saw it on conjur comments, but could not locate it right now) Such arguments should be put at rest not with statements but with irrefutable overwhelming proof (passport stamps, airline tickets, boarding cards, hotel bills, photos in Rio, witness statements, etc.
This is what would sway the average Brazilian mom who thinks Goldman is a selfish hipocrite with a history of child neglect who does not care about the child's well being and wants to rip an innocent child from a safe family environment to take it to a scary foreign country to live with a brute penniless father!!!!
==============

Now look at this case here:

A reporter of major influence blasted the bringseanhome campaign with an article leaveseaninpiece.org, leaveseanalone.org or similar.

She explicitly said that if Goldman was prevented from seeing his son she would consider it a heinous crime.


Here the irrefutable overwhelming evidence I keep requesting in vain, would come into play. Why on earth did you not work to turn her around, into an ally. One major reporter on your side, you might turn around Brazilian public opinion.


I think it is almost criminal negligence on your part (sorry, I have this dumb ideas that friends can use strong language to shake up friends committing mistakes) to have missed this.

Nobody showed interest, so I did not work at finding her name. Someone on this board even contacted her, but not with this emphasis, it seems.


http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?t=348 here it is, I found it. Google is your friend!

and here is the important phrase    por que David não retomou o vínculo com seu filho em vez de dar alguns telefonemas e enviar raros cartões dizendo “I love you”? Por que esperou Bruna morrer?
Se o pai americano provasse que a família brasileira o impediu de ver Sean, eu consideraria um crime, uma crueldade sem limite. Nenhuma mãe, nenhum pai tem esse direito, a não ser que o outro represente perigo para a criança. Por enquanto, não parece ser o caso de Sean e David.    (why did the father not keep up personal contact with his son, instead of making a few phone calls and sending a few rare postcards saying "I love you"?
If the American father proved that the Brazilian family prevented him from seeing Sean, I would consider this a crime, a cruelty without bounds. No mother, no father has this right, unless the other is a danger to the child. So far, this does not seem to be the case with Sean and David.)
 

You missed. Here was a hostile opinion maker asking you to turn her around and to make her your fierce ally. You missed!! You did not PROVE in the sense of my post
http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?t=763



Again: if Brazilian public opinion could be turned around, it would greatly increase the chances of a positive and faster outcome. Judges read newspapers, listen to their neighbors' opinion.
Title: Strange situation: How come Sean does not know?
Post by: curious67 on June 04, 2009, 06:16:30 AM
This is a bit off topic, maybe an admin can move this to the appropriate place.

Does Sean not go to a public or private school, where his friends would present him with newspaper clippings: "Hey, you are on the cover page of "Jornal do Brasil" and "O Globo" has a long article about you. And I saw your father on Television"?

8 year olds watch news, surf the internet and can read an occasional newspaper article of personal interest. And he might have older friends too. The door man. The gym teacher.

This is very strange, actually incredible. Or do Lins e Silva lock Sean up in the apartment?? It sounds totally impossible that Sean does not know a thing.

This looks irrelevant, but it looks so incredible and unlikely. Maybe he knows all and pretends he does not in order not to upset Lins e Silva?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Chuckles on June 04, 2009, 06:43:01 AM
Quick response, more later (and, I'm sure more from others)...

You need to to your research.  While I/we certainly appreciate your input, most of these issues have long been put to rest in the sense that they are out there for all to see.  To wit:

especially in what is here referred to as the "Z letter (http://bringseanhome.org/rz1.html)"

... which was all confirmed and stipulated to in Pinto's decision, which IS linked to somewhere here (and I'm sure through many Bz outlets)... but given that I'm on my third straight all-nighter and couldn't find it in my cursory search, I'll leave it to someone else to provide a link or for you to find it yourself.  It is here.

Go to the Media and Documents (http://bringseanhome.org/media.html) page for much of the documentation on most all of the things you mention.

So - apologies for jumping down your throat.  But, I don't think you are as aware of what we have been doing and what information has been made available as perhaps you might be.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 04, 2009, 07:18:41 AM
Chuck, Curious has a point. WE have seen the documentation and we know David is speaking the truth, but David is largely unknown by the Brazilian public! They barely show him. They barely have heard him talk and very few Brazilians have visited this website. Have you noticed that Globo shows very quickly and poorly any pictures of David with Sean? David gave few long interviews there. We have seen Dateline and LK, the Brazilian people have not! David has to speak, accompanied by a translator, to the Brazilian people, make people sympathize with him instead of being "the foreigner". Few Brazilians have cable. Go to Jo Soares, go to talk shows, David needs to be constantly having face time with the Brazilian media this week!! Destroy the lies and the myths! Curious is also right that in Brazil being too nice doesn't work. Brazilians admire more agressive males, like some women are only attracted to the bad boys :)
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: JamesJosephs on June 04, 2009, 07:33:13 AM
Quote from: Grace;27239
Chuck, Curious has a point. WE have seen the documentation and we know David is speaking the truth, but David is largely unknown by the Brazilian public! They barely show him. They barely have heard him talk and very few Brazilians have visited this website. Have you noticed that Globo shows very quickly and poorly any pictures of David with Sean? David gave few long interviews there. We have seen Dateline and LK, the Brazilian people have not! David has to speak, accompanied by a translator, to the Brazilian people, make people sympathize with him instead of being "the foreigner". Few Brazilians have cable. Go to Jo Soares, go to talk shows, David needs to be constantly having face time with the Brazilian media this week!! Destroy the lies and the myths! Curious is also right that in Brazil being too nice doesn't work. Brazilians admire more agressive males, like some women are only attracted to the bad boys :)

Honestly Grace, that is a character flaw in Brazilians, not David.
 
He is doing just fine considering he is battling a family that controls the Brazilian national media.
 
I wouldn't change a thing.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: Grace on June 04, 2009, 07:58:00 AM
I am giving you the perspective of someone who lived 30 years in Brazil. We are more emotional than logical in many ways. People need to hear and see David more, to sympathize with his plight and thus public opinion is changed. David is a good speaker, very clear. Even Brazilians with mediocre knowledge of English can understand him. The less of a stranger he is down there the better. My 2 cents.
Title: Lot of info here but HARD EVIDENCE still missing
Post by: curious67 on June 04, 2009, 08:21:53 AM
Quote from: Chuckles;27235
Quick response, more later (and, I'm sure more from others)...

You need to to your research.  While I/we certainly appreciate your input, most of these issues have long been put to rest in the sense that they are out there for all to see.  

Yes, I missed a few things .......

Quote from: Chuckles;27235
To wit:

especially in what is here referred to as the "Z letter (http://bringseanhome.org/rz1.html)"
Sorry to disagree.

In my irreverent language I called this letter "gossip". I know this is exaggerated but read on for my explanation.

This got my post deleted. Now I am sorry, I am very blunt and like clear language. That looks aggressive but is well meant, in order to shake people up. Still did not shake them up, though.

I call it "gossip" because it is devoid of any HARD EVIDENCE and PROOF that would convince a jury in a criminal court of law. In criminal court the right word, I think, is "hearsay" instead of gossip.

And I use such blunt language because the PROOF does EXIST, it just is never presented to the public. I cannot even blame you guys of laziness, it just seems you (= Goldman, his lawyers, his volunteer helpers, this board) have not found it relevant to do so.  So I irreverently call this shoddy work (sorry again, you did incredible work in other issues) because all this evidence could be compiled with about 20 hours of work and could be put up for all to see.

I had people on this board say that the authority of lawyer Ricardo Zamariola Junior should be enough. Not in Brazil, did you not notice that Brazilian lawyers lie blatantly with no ill effects?

Lawyers should not PROOF better then me:

  • visas,
  • passport entry stamps,
  • hotel bills,
  • boarding cards,
  • 30 phone bills showing phone calls made,
  • registered mail receipts,
  • taxi receipts in Rio
  • affidavits by people who have been on the trip
  • photos and video clips of visitation attempts
  • phone call recordings (after checking the legal implications, of course), phone transcripts, and
  • a very simple but extremely efficient method: a complete listing, with
    • date, hour and minute,
    • called from where,
    • called which number,
    • sent mail from which post office
    • to which address
    • of all attempts made to contact Sean and to solve the issue. It would be 20 pages long and by its nature is verifiable and thus has the power of proof.
    • Scan evidentiary documents with each statement, as far as they exist.


Quote from: Chuckles;27235
... which was all confirmed and stipulated to in Pinto's decision, which IS linked to somewhere here (and I'm sure through many Bz outlets)... but given that I'm on my third straight all-nighter and couldn't find it in my cursory search, I'll leave it to someone else to provide a link or for you to find it yourself.  It is here.

Go to the Media and Documents (http://bringseanhome.org/media.html) page for much of the documentation on most all of the things you mention.

 same here, lots of stuff but lacking the HARD evidence that does exist but no-one bothers to put up.

So all boils down to this:

  • what Lins e Silva says versus what the Goldman people say!
  • And people have to make up their mind who to believe.
  • And in Brazil they don't watch dateline nor have too much knowledge and respect for US senate resolutions.
  • Nobody would respect corrupt Brazilian Senate resolutions, for sure.

Quote from: Chuckles;27235

So - apologies for jumping down your throat.  But, I don't think you are as aware of what we have been doing and what information has been made available as perhaps you might be.

again, I see I missed a lot of things, but it is hard to find among 100 000 or so posts and pages here.

Still, may  main point stays: HARD EVIDENCE, which does exist in Mr Goldman's desk drawers and notes, is not presented to the public, weakening the case

I am just trying to make one contribution, to show a weak spot in your work, trying to convince you to fix that so that you could be more effective. That one point could be crucial, as I said, as it could sway some opinion makers in Brazil.
Title: Brazilian Press and Brazilian Public
Post by: curious67 on June 04, 2009, 08:31:24 AM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;27247
Honestly Grace, that is a character flaw in Brazilians, not David.
 
He is doing just fine considering he is battling a family that controls the Brazilian national media.
 
I wouldn't change a thing.

I disagree. The Brazilian national media is quite nosy and irreverent.

Lins e Silva certainly have an influence, but Brazilian press loves to smear the powerful.

They have the home advantage, and they have an advantage until disproven and disacredited.

You make an honest case and PROVE to the Brazilian media that their prejudice and preconceived ideas are wrong. (PROVE means hard proof)

Grace has a point, other then HARD EVIDENCE that I stress, David could play on sympathy.

Very true, in Brazil is all about personal meeting with real people. So that would be an additional point.  

If David went to a talk show together with a sympathetic judge, like Roberto Wanderley Nogueira (http://www.conjur.com.br/2009-abr-15/brasil-foi-negligente-permitir-rentecao-sean-goldman-pais?pagina=2#autores) that would be a killer appearance.

And I would not be afraid even to go to Faustão, a extremely popular but not very intellectual show.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: tweinstein on June 04, 2009, 08:56:32 AM
I would like to chime in here as a father who has been fighting for nearly 3 years with the Brazilian legal system.
 
Curious 67,
We have discussed much of what you are saying in terms of evidence. The fact is that this was a case of abduction. If the Hague Convention was complied with by Brazil in accordance with the way it was written, all of this would be irrelevant. The only evidence David needs to show is that Sean was illegally retained in Brazil beyond the anticipated 2 week vacation. End of story.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathy on June 04, 2009, 09:05:29 AM
AND ya know what he has evidence of such and this is why its should be and open and closed case ..He has the plane tickets that were only for a 2 week vacation hes has phone conversations of Bruna telling him shes not coming back.....David is a smart man ..the best one is the phone conversations that David taped to show the world where brunas head was at the time.....Pure and simple Parental Abduction!!!  and a clear case of it
Title: Brazilian disinformation
Post by: curious67 on June 08, 2009, 06:28:46 AM
Quote from: tweinstein;27297
I would like to chime in here as a father who has been fighting for nearly 3 years with the Brazilian legal system.
 
Curious 67,
We have discussed much of what you are saying in terms of evidence. The fact is that this was a case of abduction. If the Hague Convention was complied with by Brazil in accordance with the way it was written, all of this would be irrelevant. The only evidence David needs to show is that Sean was illegally retained in Brazil beyond the anticipated 2 week vacation. End of story.

You are right.

But facts are:

  • things do not happen the way you say and wish they were
  • there is total ignorance about facts in Brazil
  • honest well meaning people in Brazil were led to believe that Goldman is a bad penniless negligent father and will not change their opinion just because of unproven hearsay by people they don't know nor respect. This is why I keep repeating: furnish hard irrefutable proof
  • there is strong emphasis on Sean's "wishes". Honest well meaning Brazilians think Goldman is selfishly acting against the kid's best interest. Only very forceful information campaigns can counter what Lins e Silva's desinformation campaign sowed. You have the entire Brazilian public opinion against you. That needs to be changed.
Title: Re: Brazilian disinformation
Post by: caique mateus on June 08, 2009, 06:54:03 AM
Quote from: curious67;29807
... You have the entire Brazilian public opinion against you.     ...

Not true. Yes, some powerfull ones are making a lot of noise. Not even with this "help" David has "the entire Brazilian public opinion" against him. Even in Rio de Janeiro I saw some numbers (48% think Sean should stay in Brazil) that, considering everything Globo is doing, are not bad. Almost all they see is Globo, could be 100% against David, yet 52% want Sean to come home.

 
Evidence is and was shown long ago, loud and clear.
Title: Re: Turn around Brazilian public opinion! Disprove wrong allegations!
Post by: Genenut on June 08, 2009, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: curious67;27228



 The woman should be very aware of the local customs to avoid being raped. When in Arabia, wear a veil, for example, and don't drive a car if you don't have to and bring a chaperon male relative to accompany you at all times. If you neglect this, don't be surprised about the consequences. And no, I don't agree with the consequences, but they are to be expected (if it is not rape, then it is whip lashing or expulsion from the country)

 

No woman wears a sign that says RAPE ME regardless of what she might be wearing or doing.... I find this comment VERY demeaning and highly insulting.
So a female US soldier in Arabia who obviously cant have a male relative with her is fair game for rape????? A US buisnesswoman who happens to be in Arabia on buisness and drives to a meeting is asking for rape?  I dont think so.

RAPE is NEVER justified.

Go back under what ever rock you crawled out from under.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: buckeye on June 08, 2009, 10:38:51 AM
Quote from: Teena;25159
If they can decide in 24 hours to keep Sean in Brazil why can't they decide that quickly to send him home?!

Because they don't want to - they do not have and have never had Seans best interests at heart.  The Dark Side is paying alot of money to continue to hurt Sean and David just to say they "won"
 
That poor baby.:bawling:
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathne on June 08, 2009, 12:51:35 PM
i've seen in some youtube comments and comments on news sites, these kinds of ideas:
 
"people shouldn't marry brazilians because they'll get themselves in this kind of trouble"
"marry a foreigner and this is what you'll get"
"if you've already had one kid stolen, think carefully about the next person you marry"
 
people who make such comments are frustrated with the lawlessness and want to make things "right".  they feel justice is out of balance, and so they rush out a "statement" to return order.  rather than turning their anger at the courts (the protectors of law) to make things right, they turn ON the victims to make things right.
 
"if you hadn't worn that skirt, you wouldn't have been raped"
"the arsonist wouldn't have burned your house if you had lived in a tee pee"
 
if the idea is to remove risk of kidnapping entirely from a man's life, the best thing a man can do is never have a child period.  no child, no theft of child, simple as that.  men could simply say, i can't take the heartache, the law exists but isn't enforced, given those realities, forget about it.  but we women are lucky men don't say that, and society benefits from the fact that men don't say that.  heck, society EXISTS from the fact that men don't say that.  the idea is not to blame the victim but rather to continue pressing on our court systems, and from our pressing, remind:  the law exists, can we now please have fair, impartial, interpretation of the law and speedy implementation of the law?
 
by parallel example,
if you never want to be in a car accident, it's easy.  never drive a car, never walk on sidewalks near cars.  and then your risk of car accident is reduced enormously.
but people want to drive cars.  and so they buy car insurance.  and the car insurance, once purchased, becomes a legal contract.  and when the accident happens and the car is totaled, the idea is that the car insurance company upholds the legal contract rather than saying, "we are not in the mood today" or "we favor the balance sheet of our company, and a payout is not in our best interest" or "we identify with our company's employees, not so much with you, our client, and so we are taking a match to that contract".
 
in life men are going to do risky things like marry women, have children with those women, and drive cars.  the idea is that the law exists and legal contracts exist to provide a stable backdrop of lawfullness, to discourage lawlessness, and to provide legal recourse should lawlessness occur.  our society depends upon the existance of law AND the following of that law.
 
this case is about a dad and his boy and their human rights to be together.  but it's about more than that also.  it's about society and the smooth beautiful fair right-side UP running of society, at the most macro level.  
 
and in recognition of american women who have had their children stolen by brazilian husbands, and who also like to drive cars, i want to acknowledge there is risk for ANY human to leave their bedroom and interact with other humans in any way, if either scenario exists 1) no laws or 2) laws, but willy nilly, biased, or neglectful interpretation and enforcement of those laws.
 
best wishes to everyone in american and brazil and all over the world as they leave their bedrooms today.
 
kathne
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: momofthree on June 08, 2009, 12:56:58 PM
"marry a foreigner and this is what you'll get"

I'm European, married to an American.....does this mean my husband should be worried? I think NOT, most people have the common sense to know that children need both a mother and father, no matter what happens with their relationship!
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: kathne on June 08, 2009, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: momofthree;29899
"marry a foreigner and this is what you'll get"
 
I'm European, married to an American.....does this mean my husband should be worried? I think NOT, most people have the common sense to know that children need both a mother and father, no matter what happens with their relationship!

 
momofthree you rock, and it's wonderful that you and most humans on the planet have common sense and know what kids need.  however, in cases where people don't have common sense and instead prefer to be lawless, it's important that laws exist and that the court implements the laws of the land IN the land.
 
so basically i agree with you.  common sense is wonderful and important.  it keeps laws from being violated in the first place.  but we need those laws for those who have the sense of a goose.
 
and i think it's important that we not blame victims, when we're frustrated and trying to restore order in our heads:).
 
i haven't seen comments on this web site about "don't marry foreigners" but i have seen them out on the web, on youtube, etc., made by people who feel frustrated by the injustice and are trying to work out a solution in their heads.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: heatheram29 on June 08, 2009, 01:21:12 PM
I think it's time to close this thread. Every time it pops up again I think we got new bad news.
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: AnotherDad on June 08, 2009, 02:02:14 PM
The problem with this thread and the discussions about what we should do, is that we are for the moment, way beyond those efforts. Also, we have discussed all of these issues in this forum ad nauseum. I know I personally have sent multiple posts on several of these topics.
 
We need this Wednesday business to be behind us and then we discuss how much of the old stuff we dig up and work on again. Until then, this is all re-hash. We are at the STF currently and we just need to close this and regroup if we have to fight more and fight harder on these old topics. Does anyone else agree?
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: BrazilianForJustice on June 08, 2009, 02:18:40 PM
Quote from: momofthree;29899
"marry a foreigner and this is what you'll get"

I'm European, married to an American.....does this mean my husband should be worried? I think NOT, most people have the common sense to know that children need both a mother and father, no matter what happens with their relationship!

If your husband were Brazilian, and even more if you were a man and your wife was Brazilian, you SHOULD be very worried, as Brazil is a state-sponsor of international child abduction. America is an enforcer against those rogue states, NOT one of them. Now, Germany is a problem...
Title: Re: Breaking NEWS - Judge decides Sean should stay in Brazil.
Post by: BrazilianForJustice on June 08, 2009, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: AnotherDad;29952
The problem with this thread and the discussions about what we should do, is that we are for the moment, way beyond those efforts. Also, we have discussed all of these issues in this forum ad nauseum. I know I personally have sent multiple posts on several of these topics.
 
We need this Wednesday business to be behind us and then we discuss how much of the old stuff we dig up and work on again. Until then, this is all re-hash. We are at the STF currently and we just need to close this and regroup if we have to fight more and fight harder on these old topics. Does anyone else agree?

I think that for the people new to the Goldman case and the crimes against the other children and their law-abiding parents, they deserve all the rich information here and that should be a continued effort.