Bring Sean Home Forums

Goldman Forums => Main Forum (Goldman) => Topic started by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:04:58 PM

Title: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:04:58 PM
Bring Sean Home just twittered that the decision is going to be announced in 30 minutes (from Globo).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:05:42 PM
i feel sick
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
O Globo reports: According to a spokesperson of the [Brazilian] Supreme Court, that decision will be announced in about 30 minutes.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:07:57 PM
I am too. cannot do anything at work today
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: elizrpoe on December 17, 2009, 01:09:21 PM
Please please please let him do the right thing!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Quote from: Grace;51210
I am too. cannot do anything at work today

 
Is this on the Habeas Corpus or the whole thing?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 01:09:46 PM
Count me in for feeling sick.  This wait is awful.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
pleeeeeaaassssse God let him come home!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: heather on December 17, 2009, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: Herb Wife;51215
pleeeeeaaassssse God let him come home!
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;51213
Is this on the Habeas Corpus or the whole thing?


JL, I am not sure as I actually have to work for a living today. I think it is on the stay request based on the HC. And I guess (?) that Tostes has not played any other card? Is that possible?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:12:49 PM
dont know which way to look...keep forum hopping
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:13:03 PM
As he said yesterday, it~s on the stay from the HC
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: kim in socal on December 17, 2009, 01:14:09 PM
Just finished the box of chocolates...
I should have called in sick today!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 01:14:36 PM
G1 website reports that STF decision will be anounced tomorrow
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:15:49 PM
:conf::conf::cloud:WHAT!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:16:00 PM
Yes, Globo still says it will be decided Friday. I am confused now.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: Grace;51225
Yes, Globo still says it will be decided Friday. I am confused now.

Of course, at the 11th hour just before the handover would occur.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:17:12 PM
That Globo report is from 3:27 pm there Ian, it is now 4:17 pm there
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51217
JL, I am not sure as I actually have to work for a living today. I think it is on the stay request based on the HC. And I guess (?) that Tostes has not played any other card? Is that possible?

 
My guess he thinks he "shopped" for the right guy...and that it's on the HC AND whether to suspend the return until after the appeal.....

But as you know, I'm an indian and not a chief and Brazilian legal 101 is not my strong suit.............
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 01:18:24 PM
Quote from: kim in socal;51220
Just finished the box of chocolates...
I should have called in sick today!

Time switch to Herbwife's juice, or the Merlot version.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:20:40 PM
~both suffice!~      whats going on? anybody know anything yet?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: heather on December 17, 2009, 01:21:16 PM
So frusterating!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Grace;51225
Yes, Globo still says it will be decided Friday. I am confused now.

 
Huh?

How do you go from 30 minutes to Friday?

Maybe they are wanting to break the bad news to their buddy PLS before hand?  ;)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 01:24:02 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;51237
Huh?

How do you go from 30 minutes to Friday?

Maybe they are wanting to break the bad news to their buddy PLS before hand? ;)

From your thoughts to God's ears..........
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:24:14 PM
The 30 minutes came from the BringSeanHome on Twitter. I am not sure who is behind the Twitter annoucement but maybe they know more than we do. Globo is still saying Friday.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: liesl78 on December 17, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/ministro-do-stf-ja-tomou-decisao-quanto-habeas-corpus-pedido-por-familia-de-sean-mas-ela-so-sera-divulgada-em-cerca-de-40-minutos-915254979.asp

That was 12:30 EST; they said the decision has been made and will be announced in 40 min. It's 1:25 now, where's the decision?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: M.Capestro on December 17, 2009, 01:26:28 PM
This is a copy of the O GLOBO report I posted to the news thread...
 
O GLOBO reports...
http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/ministro-do-stf-ja-tomou-decisao-quanto-habeas-corpus-pedido-por-familia-de-sean-mas-ela-so-sera-divulgada-em-cerca-de-40-minutos-915254979.asp (http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/ministro-do-stf-ja-tomou-decisao-quanto-habeas-corpus-pedido-por-familia-de-sean-mas-ela-so-sera-divulgada-em-cerca-de-40-minutos-915254979.asp)
 
Minister of the STF has already taken decision on the habeas corpus application by the family of Sean, but it will only be released in about 40 minutes
 
Call | Posted on 17/12/2009 to 15h32m
 
RIO - Minister Marco Aurelio de Mello, the Supreme Court (STF) has made its decision on the habeas corpus application by the Brazilian family of Sean Goldman, fighting in court to keep him in Brazil. According to a spokesperson of the Supreme Court, that decision will be announced in about 40 minutes.
 
On Wednesday, the Federal Court determined that the boy, aged 9, is returned to his father, who is American, in 48 hours. David Goldman, who was removed from son in June 2004 when his mother - the Brazilian Bruna Bianchi, who died last year, during the birth of her second daughter - brought to Brazil on vacation and decided not to return .
 
David Goldman is already in Brazil to check the child.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Kerry on December 17, 2009, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;51237
Huh?
 
How do you go from 30 minutes to Friday?
 
Maybe they are wanting to break the bad news to their buddy PLS before hand?  ;)



As long as they are not using the time to whittle Sean away into hiding!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Luc on December 17, 2009, 01:26:49 PM
Quote from: Grace;51239
The 30 minutes came from the BringSeanHome on Twitter. I am not sure who is behind the Twitter annoucement but maybe they know more than we do. Globo is still saying Friday.


Grace, here is the link to the o globo update.
http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/ministro-do-stf-ja-tomou-decisao-quanto-habeas-corpus-pedido-por-familia-de-sean-mas-ela-so-sera-divulgada-em-cerca-de-40-minutos-915254979.asp
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 01:28:48 PM
According to www.oglobo.com.br (http://www.oglobo.com.br) a spokesperson for the STF says the decision has been taken and should be anounced shortly, while www.g1.com (http://www.g1.com) affirms that we will only know tomorrow. I am very confident that Mr. Marco Aurélio has taken the right decision. We all know he had time to read throug the acórdão ( decision) so i do not expect surprises. BTW David is in Copacabana right now
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:29:02 PM
Quote from: M.Capestro;51241
This is a copy of the O GLOBO report I posted to the news thread...
 
O GLOBO reports...
http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/ministro-do-stf-ja-tomou-decisao-quanto-habeas-corpus-pedido-por-familia-de-sean-mas-ela-so-sera-divulgada-em-cerca-de-40-minutos-915254979.asp (http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/ministro-do-stf-ja-tomou-decisao-quanto-habeas-corpus-pedido-por-familia-de-sean-mas-ela-so-sera-divulgada-em-cerca-de-40-minutos-915254979.asp)
 
Minister of the STF has already taken decision on the habeas corpus application by the family of Sean, but it will only be released in about 40 minutes
 
Call | Posted on 17/12/2009 to 15h32m
 
RIO - Minister Marco Aurelio de Mello, the Supreme Court (STF) has made its decision on the habeas corpus application by the Brazilian family of Sean Goldman, fighting in court to keep him in Brazil. According to a spokesperson of the Supreme Court, that decision will be announced in about 40 minutes.
 
On Wednesday, the Federal Court determined that the boy, aged 9, is returned to his father, who is American, in 48 hours. David Goldman, who was removed from son in June 2004 when his mother - the Brazilian Bruna Bianchi, who died last year, during the birth of her second daughter - brought to Brazil on vacation and decided not to return .
 
David Goldman is already in Brazil to check the child.

 
ok...so how long from now is that? not a military time kinda gal l:conf:

(what time was it posted)?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:30:36 PM
Yes, I was looking at the TV globo website instead of the "newspaper" site. Keep refreshing that page folks!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 01:31:50 PM
Quote from: Ian;51245
According to www.oglobo.com.br (http://www.oglobo.com.br) a spokesperson for the STF says the decision has been taken and should be anounced shortly, while www.g1.com (http://www.g1.com) affirms that we will only know tomorrow. I am very confident that Mr. Marco Aurélio has taken the right decision. We all know he had time to read throug the acórdão ( decision) so i do not expect surprises. BTW David is in Copacabana right now

Why did you post this Ian?

Just wondering?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: liesl78 on December 17, 2009, 01:34:18 PM
Come on, I have work to do!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 01:34:34 PM
what´s the problem?? if you don´t know, copacaban is the neighborhood not the beach and i posted if for those who cannot read portuguese, to let them know he is in rio
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: zipbags on December 17, 2009, 01:37:26 PM
Does anyone think that Rep.Smith coming is a good sign?  I know he has travelled with him before.  But, do you think Smith's office might have gotten some communication from Brazilian officials saying this is it?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 01:37:27 PM
Liesl, please text me as soon as the decision comes,  I have to go get some lunch, I am starving here waiting for this.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:37:39 PM
Quote from: liesl78;51252
Come on, I have work to do!!!!!

 
I know right!

Also lets not let the tension turn us away from the fact that we are ALL here for the same reason...to help bring Sean (and all the other children) home! We each have invested our hearts and time and money into this...lets stay together as a team. Please call email and write..and be good to eachother :)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;51230
My guess he thinks he "shopped" for the right guy...and that it's on the HC AND whether to suspend the return until after the appeal.....
 
But as you know, I'm an indian and not a chief and Brazilian legal 101 is not my strong suit.............

But I'm almost an expert in douchbags.....my guess.....they
ll give Silvana her HC just before the doors of the courthouse close, leaving David NO TIME to file to the president of the Supreme Court once again(oh what's his name the one that already denied the HC). Over the weekend they'll replan their stragety........hic Merlot>>.:rolleyes:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 01:40:19 PM
This waiting is one of the hardest things to do... and concerned for David and Sean amidst all this legal nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hold on for the ride ~
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51262
But I'm almost an expert in douchbags.....my guess.....they
ll give Silvana her HC just before the doors of the courthouse close, leaving David NO TIME to file to the president of the Supreme Court once again(oh what's his name the one that already denied the HC). Over the weekend they'll replan their stragety........hic Merlot>>.:rolleyes:

Can't David file an HC to take immediate custody?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 01:42:41 PM
Quote from: Ian;51253
what´s the problem?? if you don´t know, copacaban is the neighborhood not the beach and i posted if for those who cannot read portuguese, to let them know he is in rio

Gotcha...just wondered why you put it in there.....


We all knew Dave was in Rio, but I thought you were narrowing down where he was for some reason. I actually hope he's at the courts awaiting the result w/ Chris Smith.....

Excuse my jumpiness and paranoria...........
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 01:43:08 PM
Just think that this feeling we all have in our stomachs right now....David has had it multiplied by a million for 5 years...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: heather on December 17, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
Quote from: tenorplus;51265
This waiting is one of the hardest things to do... and concerned for David and Sean amidst all this legal nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hold on for the ride ~
I have never been a big fan of roller coaster rides and this has been one dosey of a roller coster ride!  My anxiety level is through the roof.  I had to take a break from work and go over to the church on campus to say a prayer and calm my nerves.  I can only imagine how David is feeling sigh.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: dsturnerjr;51269
Just think that this feeling we all have in our stomachs right now....David has had it multiplied by a million for 5 years...

 
 
:yeahthat: happy thoughts happy thoughts happy thoughts !!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 01:44:51 PM
agreed...poor David. I just don't know HOW he manages to keep it together so well.
 
BTW...LoveIIboys. I'm having serious browser issues today. Couldn't repsond to your PM. Sorry. In a nutshell, the response was "DITTO":D
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 01:44:52 PM
GOD, I wish I had a blackberry!!!! My butt is numb!:eusa_naughty:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51274
GOD, I wish I had a blackberry!!!! My butt is numb!

 
lol...ive got an herbal remedy for that !  
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Irish17 on December 17, 2009, 01:46:45 PM
Happy positive thoughts, repeat
 
happy positive thoughts, repeat.....
 
I also believe that the judges are feeling a little heat and seeing a United States Member of Congress with David is not letting them find a relief!!
 
happy positive thoughts,
 
happy positive thoughts.....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 01:46:46 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51274
GOD, I wish I had a blackberry!!!! My butt is numb!:eusa_naughty:

I think my brain is going numb!  :D
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: Herb Wife;51275
lol...ive got an herbal remedy for that !

 Hic...Thanks, I've been using your remedy already hic...lol (jk I don't even drink)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Genenut on December 17, 2009, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51274
GOD, I wish I had a blackberry!!!! My butt is numb!:eusa_naughty:


I believe I saw a newstory that blackberry was experiencing a major outage today.... a palm pre or an itouch might be a better choice for today. ;)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 01:48:44 PM
Oh no!!!

Remember when he said that he would issue the decision quickly if it was to STAY, but follow the regular procedures otherwise? So no news is good news?
If he is going to announce it now, I am affraid it is BAD NEWS ...  :crying:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 01:49:46 PM
~lol...this is not the reputation i was hoping to have here...lol~

over 400 people on here...everyone pray at the same time "PLEASE Lord Bring Sean Home Tomorrow! amen~
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 01:49:59 PM
What a farce, imagine that a Supreme Court justice in the US allowed a plea from a grandmother to be heard in a child custody case? Brazil should be embarrassed that some two-bit family lawyer stepfather and a Italian restaurant cook grandmother can have such direct influence on the highest judicial body of the country. All while the only surviving parent to the child has to travel time and time again to plea to the same courts just to see his child. Complete and utter nonsense.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: csaguiar;51283
Oh no!!!

Remember when he said that he would issue the decision quickly if it was to STAY, but follow the regular procedures otherwise? So no news is good news?
If he is going to announce it now, I am affraid it is BAD NEWS ...  :crying:


I thought we said good thoughts!!!!!  Just kidding of course.  Who knows at this point...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Belleizel on December 17, 2009, 01:51:05 PM
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
Quote from: elizrpoe;51212
Please please please let him do the right thing!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Belleizel on December 17, 2009, 01:52:52 PM
Quote from: Herb Wife;51284
~lol...this is not the reputation i was hoping to have here...lol~

over 400 people on here...everyone pray at the same time "PLEASE Lord Bring Sean Home Tomorrow! amen~

:yeahthat:
  OHH, MY God, que este menino retorne aos braços do pai, acabe com este tormento...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chicco on December 17, 2009, 01:53:09 PM
Quote from: csaguiar;51283
Oh no!!!
 
Remember when he said that he would issue the decision quickly if it was to STAY, but follow the regular procedures otherwise? So no news is good news?
If he is going to announce it now, I am affraid it is BAD NEWS ... :crying:

on the other hand maybe he is being human and giving his decision to allow the Brazilian family a proper and less traumatic(if this is possible) good-bye... I can´t help but remain positive...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Irish17 on December 17, 2009, 01:53:12 PM
Don't these people know that there are others who supposed to be working!! Please Lord God, please let this be the merciful end to this nightmare! Please let those wheels be up, let David, Sean & Rep Smith be on the plane tomorrow together for their flight home!  
 
Happy positive thoughts
 
Happy positive thoughts
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chicco on December 17, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
Quote from: Chicco;51291
on the other hand maybe he is being human and giving his decision to allow the Brazilian family a proper and less traumatic(if this is possible) good-bye... I can´t help but remain positive...

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51285
What a farce, imagine that a Supreme Court justice in the US allowed a plea from a grandmother to be heard in a child custody case? Brazil should be embarrassed that some two-bit family lawyer stepfather and a Italian restaurant cook grandmother can have such direct influence on the highest judicial body of the country. All while the only surviving parent to the child has to travel time and time again to plea to the same courts just to see his child. Complete and utter nonsense.[/quote]

HOW TRUE! Brazil needs to take a very hard look at this reality and ask themselves... )

Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: Chicco;51291
on the other hand maybe he is being human and giving his decision to allow the Brazilian family a proper and less traumatic(if this is possible) good-bye... I can´t help but remain positive...

Sure, let's hope chopchop will become an uncle's monkey!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 17, 2009, 01:59:58 PM
http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial

Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio divulga, em instantes, decisão liminar no HC em que avó pede para menino ser ouvido em juízo                         less than 20 seconds ago        (http://twitter.com/STF_oficial/status/6771152999)       from web
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 02:00:56 PM
Quote from: BrazilianFriend;51297
http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial

Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio divulga, em instantes, decisão liminar no HC em que avó pede para menino ser ouvido em juízo                         less than 20 seconds ago        (http://twitter.com/STF_oficial/status/6771152999)       from web


English?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 02:02:02 PM
~what does it say!~?????
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:02:04 PM
Quote from: dsturnerjr;51298
English?

In case Goldman: min Marco Aurélio publishes, in instants, preliminary decision in HC in that grandmother asks for boy to be heard in judgement less than 20 seconds ago from web
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 17, 2009, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: dsturnerjr;51298
English?

The official STF Tweeter site announced that the "30 minutes" are about to end.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: dsturnerjr;51298
English?

Nevermind...Sashia got it!
 
Please...if you post the ruling translate it! It's tortorous for us non-portugese speakers!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:02:34 PM
Here's to being a monkeys uncle...:D
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: elizrpoe on December 17, 2009, 02:03:11 PM
Is this his verdict? English PLEASE....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 02:03:25 PM
bad feeling
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:03:47 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51302
Nevermind...Sashia got it!
 
Please...if you post the ruling translate it! It's tortorous for us non-portugese speakers!

WENDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 02:03:50 PM
and??????  does this mean they are going to hear it? or that she just asked to be heard????
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Dan_Plainview on December 17, 2009, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: Ian;51305
bad feeling

Me too, I thought yesterday he said no news is good news
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:04:24 PM
Quote from: Ian;51305
bad feeling

bad feelings not allowed!! Only good feelings are to be put into the universe!
 
Only an absolute and complete moron could grant this HC...and I'll be the first to tell him if he does!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Irish17 on December 17, 2009, 02:04:28 PM
Ian, must not allow the dark side to get to you. Think positive thoughts, happy thoughts, think of David & Sean.
 
Maximum Force!! Positive thoughts....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:05:29 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51306
WENDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
mmmmmmmMMMMUAHH!!! :hug::hug:
 
sorry...been sick! uhg.  Back now tho!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: Ian;51305
bad feeling

I dont think there is anyway they can let a brainwashed 9 yr old decide anything....so I'm not worried here....

I'm worried they have another way to suspend the ruling until the appeal that was filed yesterday is heard in 2010.......
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 02:06:24 PM
call email call email call email     happy thoughts happy thoughts happy thoughts
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
OK FOLKS.....pretend I'm blonde. Well, actually I AM...but
 
CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PUH_LEEEZE what is going on?? English??
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:07:00 PM
tick tick tick tick tick tick....OMG someone post the ruling already!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:07:57 PM
Quote from: lisacallenwood;51315
OK FOLKS.....pretend I'm blonde. Well, actually I AM...but
 
CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PUH_LEEEZE what is going on?? English??

Waiting for MA to rule on the HC filed by granny whackjob...and whatever else Slime e Silva have up their grimey sleeves!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dana on December 17, 2009, 02:08:33 PM
Quote from: lisacallenwood;51315
OK FOLKS.....pretend I'm blonde. Well, actually I AM...but
 
CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PUH_LEEEZE what is going on?? English??
:yeahthat:
 
This waiting is awful.  Just nauseating!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 02:10:01 PM
THANK you...Wendy!! :D
 
I thought something had come across in Portugese. This is rough, really rough.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: dana;51318
:yeahthat:
 
This waiting is awful. Just nauseating!!
Want the other half of my pint of Haagen Dazs chocolate chip Icecream. It was for breakfast along with a cup of instant(yech) coffee
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:11:18 PM
Lets hope and pray this comes out allright, but remember that even if it is ruled against the dark side still has until tomorrow to post an appeal with the STJ.  But a negation here would be a tremendous boost in our favor.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 02:11:32 PM
I'm looking for a Merlot IV drip :eek:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dana on December 17, 2009, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51320
Want the other half of my pint of Haagen Dazs chocolate chip Icecream. It was for breakfast along with a cup of instant(yech) coffee

LOL!!  Thanks!  Seems like time is standing still.  Hurry up already!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Irish17 on December 17, 2009, 02:13:19 PM
I am supposed to be going to the office Christmas party in less then an hour.....hopefully this is over by then.  
 
Postive happy thoughts, positive happy thoughts.....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:13:36 PM
I've been doing google searches on Habeas Corpus and Sean Goldman but nothing new is coming up...are they EVER going to announce it! There is chocolate everywhere in my office! I can't hold out much longer!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 02:14:33 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51325
I've been doing google searches on Habeas Corpus and Sean Goldman but nothing new is coming up...are they EVER going to announce it! There is chocolate everywhere in my office! I can't hold out much longer!

you and me both - I am burning up google BIGTIME!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:15:39 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51325
I've been doing google searches on Habeas Corpus and Sean Goldman but nothing new is coming up...are they EVER going to announce it! There is chocolate everywhere in my office! I can't hold out much longer!

Are you kidding me? If there was chocolate here I would have devoured everything already. I am having tremors and palpitations just thinking about the outcome of this thing.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:15:58 PM
I think the STF twitter would be the best bet
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: mugsiejcu on December 17, 2009, 02:16:07 PM
Just got another Twitter, but it's in Portuguese... I don't want to mistranslate it using Google or something... can someone find it and translate? It's on @STF_oficial.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sandra on December 17, 2009, 02:16:28 PM
here:
http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 02:16:34 PM
remember no news = good news.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 17, 2009, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51325
I've been doing google searches on Habeas Corpus and Sean Goldman but nothing new is coming up...are they EVER going to announce it! There is chocolate everywhere in my office! I can't hold out much longer!

The announcement about the decision will likely appear here (in Portuguese) before almost any other place:

http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial

It's STF's official twitter site.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:17:08 PM
Quote from: lovellboys;51326
you and me both - I am burning up google BIGTIME!

I just came across this site...interesting...any one know what it is? similar format to this one...looks like a law school site or something?
 
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13724602
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:17:47 PM
Quote from: Jaboo;51321
Lets hope and pray this comes out allright, but remember that even if it is ruled against the dark side still has until tomorrow to post an appeal with the STJ. But a negation here would be a tremendous boost in our favor.

FILE HAS LEFT MARCO AURÉLIO'S CHAMBERS AND HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO A DEPARTMENT OF THE COURT'S REGISTRY THAT DEALS WITH "COMMUNICATIONS IN CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS"  (athough this isnt a criminal case but a civil one, the fact that this is an habeas corpus petition is the reason why it is handled by the criminal departments of the registry):
 
3512/2009GABINETE MINISTRO MARCO AURÉLIOSEÇÃO DE COMUNICAÇÕES DE PROCESSOS CRIMINAIS17/12/2009
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:18:25 PM
Quote from: BrazilianFriend;51332
The announcement about the decision will likely appear here (in Portuguese) before almost any other place:
 
http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial
 
It's STF's official twitter site.

The STF uses Twitter?!?  :conf:  I really gotta get that whole twitter thing figured out!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51335
FILE HAS LEFT MARCO AURÉLIO'S CHAMBERS AND HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO A DEPARTMENT OF THE COURT'S REGISTRY THAT DEALS WITH "COMMUNICATIONS IN CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS" (athough this isnt a criminal case but a civil one, the fact that this is an habeas corpus petition is the reason why it is handled by the criminal departments of the registry):
 
3512/2009GABINETE MINISTRO MARCO AURÉLIOSEÇÃO DE COMUNICAÇÕES DE PROCESSOS CRIMINAIS17/12/2009

HOW do we get our hands on this?!?  electronically speaking of course!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: mugsiejcu;51329
Just got another Twitter, but it's in Portuguese... I don't want to mistranslate it using Google or something... can someone find it and translate? It's on @STF_oficial.
It says the same thing....he's going to decide the fate.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 02:20:07 PM
Quote from: mugsiejcu;51329
Just got another Twitter, but it's in Portuguese... I don't want to mistranslate it using Google or something... can someone find it and translate? It's on @STF_oficial.

 
 
If Goldman: Marco Aurélio min disclose, in a moment, a preliminary order in which the HC grandmother asks boy to be heard in court
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 02:20:07 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51303
Here's to being a monkeys uncle...:D

My mistake! :)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
This HB motion has nothing to do with the 3rd instance appeal on judge pintos orginal ruling however.  its just another stall tactic by evil granny
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:22:30 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51336
The STF uses Twitter?!? :conf: I really gotta get that whole twitter thing figured out!
Lol Wendy, I'm a fledgling Twitterer myself.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Belleizel on December 17, 2009, 02:22:58 PM
I am watching the STF CHANNEL TV. ....Something news, I will tell..
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 02:23:16 PM
at least we know the decision is not handwritten ...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: SWEET72 on December 17, 2009, 02:23:17 PM
David just made the Today Show homepage...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:24:05 PM
Quote from: Jaboo;51341
This HB motion has nothing to do with the 3rd instance appeal on judge pintos orginal ruling however. its just another stall tactic by evil granny

so what are you saying exactly?  Stall tactic or not...I for one will be ecstatic (to the point of consuming copius amounts of chocolate and weight watchers be damned) if granny whackjobs HC is slapped back in her face....AGAIN!!  She just needs to Give the hell UP already!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51342
Lol Wendy, I'm a fledgling Twitterer myself.

I am a Twitt when it comes to twittering!!  LOL!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 02:25:09 PM
:D I've missed you Wendy :D
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:26:29 PM
Quote from: lisacallenwood;51348
:D I've missed you Wendy :D

awwww...thanks!! I've been missing everyone here too!! Glad to be back on my feet and feelin feisty!! Time to bring this wee boy home and all the rest too!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: ana-boston on December 17, 2009, 02:27:11 PM
http://terratv.terra.com.br/Noticias/Brasil/4194-258234/Escoltado-pai-de-Sean-Goldman-chega-ao-Rio.htm (http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Rio/0,,MUL1418874-5606,00-PAI+DE+SEAN+DAVID+GOLDMAN+CHEGA+AO+BRASIL+PARA+ENCONTRAR+O+FILHO.html)
This is the footage of david arriving in Brazil. I look foward to the better footage of him arriving in the US with Sean by his side.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:27:12 PM
I have several pages open in my computer. BSH, Twitter, Globo, just waiting.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:27:49 PM
Yes this is a stall tactic.
even if it is denied they still have until the 48 hours are up to appeal the latest decision
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: Grace;51352
I have several pages open in my computer. BSH, Twitter, Globo, just waiting.

Grace I know you'll be the first to see it!! Waiting, waiting, waiting!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:28:59 PM
Still nothing on the case's page at the Court's website:

HC/101985 - HABEAS CORPUS

Origem:RJ - RIO DE JANEIRO
Relator:MIN. MARCO AURÉLIO
PACTE.(S)S R G
IMPTE.(S)SILVANA BIANCHI CARNEIRO RIBEIRO E OUTRO(A/S)
COATOR(A/S)(ES)SUPERIOR TRIBUNAL DE JUSTIÇA

Resultados da busca
DataAndamentoÓrgão JulgadorObservaçãoDocumento
16/12/2009 Petição 142918/2009 - 16/12/2009 - SILVANA BIANCHI CARNEIRO RIBEIRO - PRESTA INFORMAÇÕES.  
 
15/12/2009 Conclusos ao(à) Relator(a)
 
15/12/2009 Distribuído por prevenção MIN. MARCO AURÉLIO  
 
14/12/2009 Autuado
 
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:31:21 PM
any thoughts on how long it might take them to announce this???
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:31:41 PM
Thank god for broadband! It's 5:31 PM there, I am sure Marco Aurelio wants to go home eat dinner soon....c'mon!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:32:08 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51356
any thoughts on how long it might take them to announce this???

Two hours ago they said it would take 40 minutes... you can see why Brazilian Justice is so slow...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Irish17 on December 17, 2009, 02:32:51 PM
Ok I just watched the footage of David arrving in Brazil and I am struck by the amount of media to catch him plus the amount of police!! He also had a police car escort as he left the airport....that has not happened before.
Very peculiar.....positive signs, please Lord God...
 
 
happy positive thoughts,
 
happy positive thoughts.....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 02:33:29 PM
C'mon already, let's go! Get over with this! :smash:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:34:25 PM
Sean will stay
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 17, 2009, 02:34:27 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51358
Two hours ago they said it would take 40 minutes... you can see why Brazilian Justice is so slow...

*&^%^&:

Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio concede liminar e menor permanece, por ora, no Brasil
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:34:37 PM
Quote from: Irish17;51359
Ok I just watched the footage of David arrving in Brazil and I am struck by the amount of media to catch him plus the amount of police!! He also had a police car escort as he left the airport....that has not happened before.
Very peculiar.....positive signs, please Lord God...
 
 
happy positive thoughts,
 
happy positive thoughts.....

Holy crap!! Now why would he need a police escort?!  That's crazy! Poor David!  He must be so stressed...I know he's trying to hold back his emotions...but it's so hard!! I suck at it...(in case you haven't noticed!;))
 
Do you have a link??
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:34:48 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51356
any thoughts on how long it might take them to announce this???

No. Now it is up to the courts civil servants to process the data to the website, and for the Court's press office to draw up a press release about it. How long the they will take is beyond me. Maybe they are processing other files that arrived first.
 
The raw data will probably appear in the case's page first and a press release will appear afterwards.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 02:35:02 PM
Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio concede liminar e menor permanece, por ora, no Brasil

He granted a stay!!! bastard!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:35:10 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51362
Sean will stay

WHAT?!?!?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:35:12 PM
Sean will stay, people.
 
Brazil, Brazil. You never surprise me! I'm so glad that I left this terrible, terrible place.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:35:13 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51362
Sean will stay

 
What do you mean by this?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: BrazilianFriend;51363
*&^%^&:
 
Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio concede liminar e menor permanece, por ora, no Brasil

So - he stays.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51368
Sean will stay, people.
 
Brazil, Brazil. You never surprise me!

NO NO NON ONONONONONONOOOOOO!~!!!!  OMG!! This cannot be true!!
 
:cloud::cloud::cloud::burn::mad2::mad2::madgo::madgo::mad2:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:36:06 PM
I know this is off topic but has anyone heard of this fiasco in Texas, "Jean Philippe Lacombe Allegedly Tricked Texas Court".
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:36:16 PM
He has always been thier pocket justice
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:36:19 PM
Quote from: lovellboys;51371
So - he stays.

translating...
 
Goldman case: justice Marco Aurelio grants the liminar and the kid will stay in Brazil for now.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JonathanR on December 17, 2009, 02:36:36 PM
Is this the end of it?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dana on December 17, 2009, 02:37:20 PM
Quote from: csaguiar;51366
Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio concede liminar e menor permanece, por ora, no Brasil
 
He granted a stay!!! bastard!!!!

WHAT?!?!?!  I am going to be sick!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:37:23 PM
So I guess this means I'm not going to be an uncle to a monkey after all...:(
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:37:24 PM
HOW on EARTH can the Habeas Corpus case be rejected HOW MANY TIMES??? 3? 4? And NOW when Brazil's opportunity to do the right thing is here this IDIOT makes a decision like this?!?! OMG COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 02:37:26 PM
What a bunch of jokers!!! Justice and Brazil should never be used in the same sentence. And Dark Side Granny laughs.....
 
DISGUSTING!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: ana-boston on December 17, 2009, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: BrazilianFriend;51363
*&^%^&:
 
Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio concede liminar e menor permanece, por ora, no Brasil

I cannot believe this. do you have the web site. When did he decide that?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51375
translating...
 
Goldman case: justice Marco Aurelio grants the liminar and the kid will stay in Brazil for now.

 
Where did you get this from. From the Court's twitter service or from the press? There isn't any decision uploaded to the case's page at the website, nor a proper press release.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:38:03 PM
MORE PHONECALLS TO SOS and OBAMA!!! Sending Faxes now!!! This is INSANITY!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:38:21 PM
I'm on the phone to the W.H. NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! Flood the line!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sandra on December 17, 2009, 02:38:23 PM
myGod, I just don't believe it!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: anna42 on December 17, 2009, 02:38:48 PM
Quote from: lisacallenwood;51380
What a bunch of jokers!!! Justice and Brazil should never be used in the same sentence. And Dark Side Granny laughs.....
 
DISGUSTING!!

 
The US govt is to blame as well. They are doing nothing about this!  I am totally disgusted at all of this.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51382
Where did you get this from. From the Court's twitter service or from the press? There isn't any decision uploaded to the case's page at the website, nor a proper press release.

OK..I am waiting until Tunevsk posts the actual ruling before totally freaking out...I know, I already freaked out but now I'm waiting....
sigh
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51382
Where did you get this from. From the Court's twitter service or from the press? There isn't any decision uploaded to the case's page at the website, nor a proper press release.

Well, I guess we can trust the official Twitter channel from STF, right?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:39:31 PM
I dont see anything on the site either
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:39:45 PM
Quote from: JonathanR;51376
Is this the end of it?

No, the word "liminar" means a temporary injunction. Probably just another stay like the previous ones.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bo1 on December 17, 2009, 02:40:16 PM
The blatent corruption is sickening. For anyone to ever believe that Brazil will ever be anything more than a place where criminals flee to from all over the planet to escape persecution.....well, que piada.:mad2:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 02:40:17 PM
Poor David, another trip to Brazil in vain.
That's disgusting... ridiculous... I don't have words to describe it ....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:40:24 PM
Quote from: Jaboo;51389
I dont see anything on the site either

Yeah, Twitter was the first place where the news broke, I guess other media outlets will get on this fairly soon...
 
I wouldn't count on the possibility of the Twitter channel of STF being wrong.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 02:40:29 PM
Time to hit every possible political (US and Brazil) and media source internationally that we possibly can. MA has shown he can be "bought"... and he will go down in history as a man without a single spine of truth in his entire personage - a man that is as useless as any can be - and a TOTAL DISGRACE to Brazil. Why have a *&&^(*& like this in such a position, when he obviously cannot think in the manner deserving of a justice of this magnitude!!!!!! Off to email and phone...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:40:30 PM
Correct me if im wrong but doest this mean it has to now be revied by the full court?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Irish17 on December 17, 2009, 02:40:48 PM
Shame on Brazil!! Shame on you.
 
This ruling, this injustice this is wrong on so many levels!!!
 
brazil, the court system had their chance to do the correct, the proper thing with all of the world watching, yet they blew it. Now the world sees brazil for what they really are. A country that does not honor their commitments, their treaties and common decsency to all.
 
Shame on Brazil, Shame on Brazil!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:41:15 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51388
Well, I guess we can trust the official Twitter channel from STF, right?

I dont use twitter. So that's why I'm asking. Was this news posted there?
 
Because, on the courts proper website, we still see no ruling.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:41:28 PM
Quote from: Jaboo;51396
Correct me if im wrong but doest this mean it has to now be revied by the full court?

 I don't think so ...but what DOES it mean?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 02:41:49 PM
The US should threaten to boycott the Olympics unless all 65 children are returned to the US.  That is the only way it will happen I'm afraid.  So sad.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:41:55 PM
Quote from: Jaboo;51396
Correct me if im wrong but doest this mean it has to now be revied by the full court?

I guess it means now that Sean must be heard on the courts (despite many other decisions where they said that he shouldn't).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JonathanR on December 17, 2009, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51391
No, the word "liminar" means a temporary injunction. Probably just another stay like the previous ones.

 
Is it possible David will take Sean home tomorrow?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ceilli on December 17, 2009, 02:42:37 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51398
I dont use twitter. So that's why I'm asking. Was this news posted there?
 
Because, on the courts proper website, we still see no ruling.

http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:42:44 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51398
I dont use twitter. So that's why I'm asking. Was this news posted there?
 
Because, on the courts proper website, we still see no ruling.

Yes, that sentence "Ministro M. Aurelio concede liminar..." was posted on STF's Twitter account.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:43:02 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51401
I guess it means now that Sean must be heard on the courts (despite many other decisions where they said that he shouldn't).

The lengths at which that demented, evil *itch will go to in order to torture and abuse that poor little boy make me want to vomit!!! OMG there certainly is a very special place for her in several levels of HELL!! :cloud::cloud:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:43:04 PM
I hate to say, "I told you so" but no one should be surprised by this decision.  This dufus is in the tank for the family and everyone knows it.  Marco Aurélio the "Joe Lieberman" of the Brazilian supreme court.  What a complete farce, every Brazilian citizen should be ashamed at this kangaroo court process.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 02:43:07 PM
Marco Aurélio is a clown... my country is a circus.. i just can´t belive it
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bo1 on December 17, 2009, 02:43:37 PM
http://twitter.com/STF_Oficial



Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: csaguiar on December 17, 2009, 02:43:52 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51406
I hate to say, "I told you so" but no one should be surprised by this decision.  This dufus is in the tank for the family and everyone knows it.  Marco Aurélio the "Joe Lieberman" of the Brazilian supreme court.  What a complete farce, every Brazilian citizen should be ashamed at this kangaroo court process.

I am.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 02:43:58 PM
Quote from: JonathanR;51402
Is it possible David will take Sean home tomorrow?

Unfortunately, no.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:44:42 PM
CRAP CRAP!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51405
The lengths at which that demented, evil *itch will go to in order to torture and abuse that poor little boy make me want to vomit!!! OMG there certainly is a very special place for her in several levels of HELL!! :cloud::cloud:

Is it possible to David to file an HC to immediately see Sean?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: anna42 on December 17, 2009, 02:45:02 PM
Why not?  This is wrong!  Where is Clinton and Obama?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:45:04 PM
Quote from: JonathanR;51402
Is it possible David will take Sean home tomorrow?

 
That would be a "NO" my friend...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jaboo on December 17, 2009, 02:45:09 PM
Im not sure but i think that the HC petition now must be approved by the entire STF and that aurelio just granted that the petition was worth considering.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:45:18 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51410
Unfortunately, no.

And the sad thing is that until Sean is heard (maybe in the middle of 2010?), they have loooooots of time to think about new strategies.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 02:45:24 PM
I called the White House and told them I KNOW the president DOESN'T NEED the power of H.R.3240 to Act and it is time for him and SOS to act NOW!!!!!!!!!!
I imagine we won't be hearing any "comments"  from them about the decision NOW. They'll HIDE like the RATS they are!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 02:46:17 PM
I'm ashamed of MY country, the U.S., for sitting by so complacently and watching that nasty spider spin her web at Sean's emotional expense.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: carina on December 17, 2009, 02:47:29 PM
That shouldn't came as surprise since we all know who Marco Aurelio is. His cousin, an former president of Brazil was kicked out of power for corruption, among other things several yrs ago. SO i guess CORRUPTION RUNS IN THE FAMILY. No wonder why he is such good friends with this evil family..

Hope this is not the end.......
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:48:47 PM
so why can't David file a HC to make them enforce the original THREE rulings in his favour?!?! Is NO ONE going to protect this poor boy from that nightmare family!??!!? I'm sickened!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sandra on December 17, 2009, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: lisacallenwood;51419
I'm ashamed of MY country, the U.S., for sitting by so complacently and watching that nasty spider spin her web at Sean's emotional expense.

Me too :eek: I'm shocked!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:49:12 PM
Quote from: lisacallenwood;51419
I'm ashamed of MY country, the U.S., for sitting by so complacently and watching that nasty spider spin her web at Sean's emotional expense.

 
Lisa, with all due respect the US can't force other nations to follow the rule of law.  This has nothing to do with our government.  I will agree that there must be consequences however, stanctions etc.  However, our nation bears no responsibility at all for this judicial nonsense.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:49:29 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51418
I called the White House and told them I KNOW the president DOESN'T NEED the power of H.R.3240 to Act and it is time for him and SOS to act NOW!!!!!!!!!!
I imagine we won't be hearing any "comments" from them about the decision NOW. They'll HIDE like the RATS they are!!!!

Just a reminder that this situation has been going on much before this new administration took place. Nothing was done under the former administration.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:51:17 PM
This is the fault of the Brazilian justice system, now officially the worst in the world.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bob D'Amico on December 17, 2009, 02:51:21 PM
Just got off the telephone with a Brazilian reporter. The stay is in place until February!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 02:52:04 PM
The USA needs to pull any and ALL economic (and other) supports from Brazil until Sean is home and all the other abducted children left in this terrible situation!!! It is also necessary for the UN to act against this country, since they are in clear and complete violation of an international treaty that BRAZIL SIGNED AND SAID IT WOULD UPHOLD!!!!!! Justice MA - ultimately he will receive his due reward... eternity in Hell and when he stands before the Almighty he will know that he is absolutely nothing, a worthless person and without hope!!!!!!
 
We HAVE to stay together and stay strong... get the attention of the WH... the SOS (yes, I know they are totally useless - but hopefully there is someone in government that will uphold the truth and GO AFTER SEAN and all the other children - other than dear Chris Smith). There HAS TO BE A WAY to avert this ruling - something in the ay of legitimate law (which Brazil by evidence knows nothing of). Don;t give up - and David - please stay strong! How my heart aches for this dear man and his dear son!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 02:52:08 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51429
Just got off the telephone with a Brazilian reporter. The stay is in place until February!

Can that be overuled?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:52:17 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51429
Just got off the telephone with a Brazilian reporter. The stay is in place until February!

Of course, this is BRAZIL!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51426
Lisa, with all due respect the US can't force other nations to follow the rule of law.  This has nothing to do with our government.  I will agree that there must be consequences however, stanctions etc.  However, our nation bears no responsibility at all for this judicial nonsense.


If the US Press Secretary puts something out that Obama is considering boycotting the Olympics in order to have US citizens returned, Sean is home for Christmas.  Bottom line.  It just takes some cajones, something that politicians don't have anymore.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bob D'Amico on December 17, 2009, 02:52:28 PM
I should add that I tried very hard to be polite when asked for my opinion about the Brazilian judicial system.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:52:55 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51429
Just got off the telephone with a Brazilian reporter. The stay is in place until February!

Un-FREAKIN- BELIEVABLE!  sigh
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: :: ultranol :: on December 17, 2009, 02:53:21 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51429
Just got off the telephone with a Brazilian reporter. The stay is in place until February!

Well, if so, they should hear Sean until February? That's not so bad, actually. The question is: after hearing him, who can overrule previous decisions that said that he should return to the US? And how?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tdmiller on December 17, 2009, 02:53:31 PM
It's not over.  It won't be over until Sean and all the other kids are safely home!  Silvana wasn't going down without a fight.  Marco Aurelio is a worldwide disgrace to his profession!  Making another round of phone calls.  Tis' the season to believe in miracles....
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 02:53:31 PM
Quote from: Jaboo;51416
Im not sure but i think that the HC petition now must be approved by the entire STF and that aurelio just granted that the petition was worth considering.


Yes, you are right. The problem is that, due to the judiciary vacations, the entire STF will examine it only on february or later.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:53:39 PM
Brazil kind of stops until February anyway, summer vacations and all. I guess we will all be in the same anxious situation 2 months from now...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:53:41 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51434
I should add that I tried very hard to be polite when asked for my opinion about the Brazilian judicial system.

Kudo's to you Bob...that must have been difficult in the extreme!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 02:54:21 PM
Quote from: Grace;51427
Just a reminder that this situation has been going on much before this new administration took place. Nothing was done under the former administration.

just another reminder...we still have the power to let them and the rest of the world know how pissed we are. There are over 500 peole on here...how many of you actually called or emailed or faxed someone today? how many of you will? If everyone  lets this deflate & they disappear again like after last Junes nightmare...Sean and all the other children will never come home. How many of you will act?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: whartn on December 17, 2009, 02:54:46 PM
Pres.Obama is a big bs artist--lots of talk and no action.The dumb Lula has struck out Obama
soccer/olympics/sean goldman
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: KatiMurphy on December 17, 2009, 02:55:11 PM
I'm in shock. What a heartbreaking turn of events. Of course, Brazil never fails to amaze me with their corruption. Sending love and prayers to the Goldman family.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 02:55:55 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51434
I should add that I tried very hard to be polite when asked for my opinion about the Brazilian judicial system.
At this juncture - I am not so sure I could be so gracious, epecially with a system that is as rotten as Brazil's judiciay!!!! They need an internal revolt! MA has just laughed in the face of Pinto and the most-recent 3 judges... it is MA that needs to be out for good and always... and sitting his nelly-duff in jail until it rots.
 
Thanks, Bob - for being much more gracious that I am feeling or thinking.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: anna42 on December 17, 2009, 02:56:06 PM
Are you all absolutely certain?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 02:56:09 PM
I really really feel for David right now, who must be extremely tired from the sleepless night on the plane and from the emotional upheaval. He needs to know he has many many people all over the planet supporting him. Marco Aurelio just proved what small and corrupt minds can do.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Herb Wife;51442
just another reminder...we still have the power to let them and the rest of the world know how pissed we are. There are over 500 peole on here...how many of you actually called or emailed or faxed someone today? how many of you will? If everyone lets this deflate & they disappear again like after last Junes nightmare...Sean and all the other children will never come home. How many of you will act?

Already done!  Everyone...get on this!! The POTUS and SOS MUST respond to his tactic!!  Talk about embarrassing for your country!! I'm a Canadian and I'm watching!! Brazil just basically flipped the U.S. the bird...wonder if Hilary and Obama will accept it!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tdmiller on December 17, 2009, 02:57:06 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51434
I should add that I tried very hard to be polite when asked for my opinion about the Brazilian judicial system.

How I wish I could have heard that conversation.  Always proud of you Bob!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51285
What a farce, imagine that a Supreme Court justice in the US allowed a plea from a grandmother to be heard in a child custody case? Brazil should be embarrassed that some two-bit family lawyer stepfather and a Italian restaurant cook grandmother can have such direct influence on the highest judicial body of the country. All while the only surviving parent to the child has to travel time and time again to plea to the same courts just to see his child. Complete and utter nonsense.

 
I don't wish to be redundant but I offer the above commentary about this situation.  Brazil, where you can kidnap children and buy a supreme court justice to legitimize the legal details...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: UD_student on December 17, 2009, 02:57:54 PM
CALL PRESIDENT OBAMA
Telephone Comments: 202-456-1111
Main Switchboard: 202-456-1414
http://www.whitehouse.gov/


CALL SOS HILLARY CLINTON
Tel: 202-647-4000
fax # 202-647-1579
http://www.state.gov/                 

And please also call the supporters of HR 3240, especially if one is your representative, and express your desire for them to call on Pres Obama and SOS Clinton to speak NOW and express how UNswiftly this case is moving forward!! To find the cosponsors contact information, go to house.gov and select their name from the drop down menu of representatives websites and click on the 'contact' or 'contact us' link on their website. I have spoken with many reps not in my district, and please do not feel concerned with calling someone not in your district

Cosponsors:
Rep Blackburn, Marsha (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Blackburn++Marsha%29%29+01748%29%29) [TN-7]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Burton, Dan (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Burton++Dan%29%29+00154%29%29) [IN-5]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Duncan, John J., Jr. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Duncan++John+J.++Jr.%29%29+00322%29%29) [TN-2]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Emerson, Jo Ann (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Emerson++Jo+Ann%29%29+01481%29%29) [MO-8]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Fortenberry, Jeff (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Fortenberry++Jeff%29%29+01793%29%29) [NE-1]  - 7/16/2009
Rep Franks, Trent (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Franks++Trent%29%29+01707%29%29) [AZ-2]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Gutierrez, Luis V. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Gutierrez++Luis+V.%29%29+00478%29%29) [IL-4]  - 10/13/2009
Rep Inglis, Bob (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Inglis++Bob%29%29+00582%29%29) [SC-4]  - 7/16/2009
Rep Lungren, Daniel E. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Lungren++Daniel+E.%29%29+00717%29%29) [CA-3]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Maffei, Daniel B. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Maffei++Daniel+B.%29%29+01943%29%29) [NY-25]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Massa, Eric J. J. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Massa++Eric+J.+J.%29%29+01945%29%29) [NY-29]  - 10/7/2009  [NOTE: already posted this rep will be moving for action!]
Rep McCotter, Thaddeus G. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+McCotter++Thaddeus+G.%29%29+01732%29%29) [MI-11]  - 11/19/2009
Rep McMorris Rodgers, Cathy (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+McMorris+Rodgers++Cathy%29%29+01809%29%29) [WA-5]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Mollohan, Alan B. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Mollohan++Alan+B.%29%29+00824%29%29) [WV-1]  - 7/16/2009
Rep Moran, James P. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Moran++James+P.%29%29+00832%29%29) [VA-8]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Poe, Ted (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Poe++Ted%29%29+01802%29%29) [TX-2]  - 7/16/2009
Rep Sanchez, Loretta (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Sanchez++Loretta%29%29+01522%29%29) [CA-47]  - 7/16/2009
Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Sensenbrenner++F.+James++Jr.%29%29+01041%29%29) [WI-5]  - 7/16/2009
Rep Shimkus, John (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Shimkus++John%29%29+01527%29%29) [IL-19]  - 10/13/2009
Rep Shuster, Bill (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Shuster++Bill%29%29+01681%29%29) [PA-9]  - 11/6/2009
Rep Souder, Mark E. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Souder++Mark+E.%29%29+01089%29%29) [IN-3]  - 9/30/2009
Rep Tierney, John F. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Tierney++John+F.%29%29+01535%29%29) [MA-6]  - 11/6/2009
Rep Wittman, Robert J. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Wittman++Robert+J.%29%29+01886%29%29) [VA-1]  - 10/7/2009
Rep Wolf, Frank R. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d111&querybd=@FIELD%28FLD004+@4%28%28@1%28Rep+Wolf++Frank+R.%29%29+01238%29%29) [VA-10]  - 7/16/2009
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 02:59:09 PM
Are we able to determine if David can at least see his son?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51448
Already done! Everyone...get on this!! The POTUS and SOS MUST respond to his tactic!! Talk about embarrassing for your country!! I'm a Canadian and I'm watching!! Brazil just basically flipped the U.S. the bird...wonder if Hilary and Obama will accept it!!
Tomorrow is Friday, since Mello can override the previous HC denial can't David file an emergency HC and have the "President" of the SP rule on it in the 11th hour tomorrow, before the court closes for the weekend"?
The other thing. Since the Supreme Court determined that Sean has been the victim of SEVERE mental abuse and Alienation, HOW, can he be ANY kind of witness in his own behalf???
Not only is Brazil a haven for kidnappers, but they outwardly condone child abuse and turn a deaf ear to the plea's of those abused.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: ENR on December 17, 2009, 03:01:25 PM
I guess I am thoroughly confused.  I thought this HC was ruled on this summer and denied.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: liesl78 on December 17, 2009, 03:02:09 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51455
 Since the Supreme Court determined that Sean has been the victim of SEVERE mental abuse and Alienation, HOW, can he be ANY kind of witness in his own behalf???
Not only is Brazil a haven for kidnappers, but they outwardly condone child abuse and turn a deaf ear to the plea's of those abused.

My thoughts exactly!!!!! SO ASHAMED RIGHT NOW!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:02:09 PM
Quote from: lovellboys;51453
Are we able to determine if David can at least see his son?

 
Sure David can see Sean, but is it the best decision at this time?  I don't think so...this situation is so heartbreaking...David stay strong we won't abandon you...chopchop out for now...:(
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dana on December 17, 2009, 03:02:33 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51455
Tomorrow is Friday, since Mello can override the previous HC denial can't David file an emergency HC and have the "President" of the SP rule on it in the 11th hour tomorrow, before the court closes for the weekend"?
The other thing. Since the Supreme Court determined that Sean has been the victim of SEVERE mental abuse and Alienation, HOW, can he be ANY kind of witness in his own behalf???
Not only is Brazil a haven for kidnappers, but they outwardly condone child abuse and turn a deaf ear to the plea's of those abused.

:yeahthat:  Roger or Andre' please advise -
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 03:02:45 PM
sos # keeps hanging up on me....think they recognize my #?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:04:20 PM
Quote from: :: ultranol ::;51417
And the sad thing is that until Sean is heard (maybe in the middle of 2010?), they have loooooots of time to think about new strategies.

Has there been a decision that Sean needs to be heard?
 
Probably not.
 
O GLOBO is saying that the STF decided that Sean "will stay in Brazil" (headline), but then you follow the link and this follows: "until the Habeas Corpus is decided by the full Court".
 
So basically, according to O GLOBO's not trustworthy reporting, Marco Aurélio basically ruled that it will be up for the full Court to decide if Sean is to be heard as requested by Silvana's HC, and that, until the full Court decides to either grant or reject Silvana's HC, the TRF-2 decision is stayed so that Sean cannot return to the U.S until a decision by the full STF is made on this topic.
 
And, in the end, the full STF may just decide that it is not up for them to decide the merits of this topic right now and accordingly the full Court may well quash the HC without ruling on the merits (as President Mendes did with the previous HC).
 
Of course, this will buy Tostes and L&S time to file whole host of appeals, from petitions asking for clarification of judgement addressed to TRF-2 to full special and extraordinary appeals to STJ and STF respectively. Then the presidency of TRF-2 will have to rule on the admissibility of such appeals, there will be Agravos de Instrumento to STJ or STF against any decision by the presidency of the TRF-2 not to certify the appeals as admissible, etc.
 
Plus, once the appeals are filed, Tostes will be able to ask the Presidency of TRF (before decision on the certification of the appeals as admissible or not) or the rapporteurs in STJ and STF for stays and injunctions.
 
So, todays ruling buys Tostes time and allows him to drag this case for at least another year, because even if the full STF quashes the HC, Tostes will have filed appeals in the main case (the abduction lawsut to which Silvana is not a party).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: Herb Wife;51460
sos # keeps hanging up on me....think they recognize my #?

HW. Put The Herbal Remedy DOWN AND STEP AWAY FROM THE PHONE:D
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: liesl78 on December 17, 2009, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51462
Has there been a decision that Sean needs to be heard?
 
Probably not.
 
O GLOBO is saying that the STF decided that Sean "will stay in Brazil" (headline), but then you follow the link and this follows: "until the Habeas Corpus is decided by the full Court".
 
So basically, according to O GLOBO's not trustworthy reporting, Marco Aurélio basically ruled that it will be up for the full Court to decide if Sean is to be heard as requested by Silvana's HC, and that, until the full Court decides to either grant or reject Silvana's HC, the TRF-2 decision is stayed so that Sean cannot return to the U.S until a decision by the full STF is made on this topic.
 
And, in the end, the full STF may just decide that it is not up for them to decide the merits of this topic right now and accordingly the full Court may well quash the HC without ruling on the merits (as President Mendes did with the previous HC).
 
Of course, this will buy Tostes and L&S time to file whole host of appeals, from petitions asking for clarification of judgement addressed to TRF-2 to full special and extraordinary appeals to STJ and STF respectively. Then the presidency of TRF-2 will have to rule on the admissibility of such appeals, there will be Agravos de Instrumento to STJ or STF against any decision by the presidency of the TRF-2 not to certify the appeals as admissible, etc.
 
Plus, once the appeals are filed, Tostes will be able to ask the Presidency of TRF (before decision on the certification of the appeals as admissible or not) or the rapporteurs in STJ and STF for stays and injunctions.
 
So, todays ruling buys Tostes time and allows him to drag this case for at least another year, because even if the full STF quashes the HC, Tostes will have filed appeals in the main case (the abduction lawsut to which Silvana is not a party).

Exactly, Marco Aurelio is buying them time - on itself, disgusting - just like he did with the ADPF and in the end he voted against it. Meanwhile, they appeal, appeal, appeal!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: zipbags on December 17, 2009, 03:07:09 PM
I think Rep.Smith is the one who can make the biggest stink...And he is the one who could probably get in touch with Clinton or Obama.
 
 
On a side note. Not trying to sound negative.  I just can't see David getting his son back.  I think the system in Brazil is just so corrupt and the family just will keep appealing.  That this will drag out until the point where he will be old enough to stay.  I hope to god I am wrong.  But, this is just insane.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tdmiller on December 17, 2009, 03:10:11 PM
Be patient calling the White House comment line.........it is very backed up.  The woman I spoke to told me she will add my comments to the hundreds they have gotten today.  Hillary Clinton's mailbox is full, and they divert you to a recording.  Don't give up.  She should have been on that plane with David!  Shame on our government for allowing this fiasco to continue.....but mostly the SHAME IS ON BRAZIL!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 03:10:45 PM
Quote from: zipbags;51466
I think Rep.Smith is the one who can make the biggest stink...And he is the one who could probably get in touch with Clinton or Obama.
 
 
On a side note. Not trying to sound negative. I just can't see David getting his son back. I think the system in Brazil is just so corrupt and the family just will keep appealing. That this will drag out until the point where he will be old enough to stay. I hope to god I am wrong. But, this is just insane.

Not to sound crass, but we go through enough on behalf of all the abducted children and the LBP's. We are trying our best to have the best outcome possible. I can't in all honesty continue making calls, sending emails and writing if I believe that we can not achieve victory.
 
I choose to believe and feeling otherwise is just not fair to David and Sean.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tdmiller on December 17, 2009, 03:11:49 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51463
HW. Put The Herbal Remedy DOWN AND STEP AWAY FROM THE PHONE:D

No, but they might recognize my #
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:12:40 PM
One final comment before I log out for today, Marco Aurélio is a member of the highest judicial body of Brazil, the Supreme Court of Brazil. This is now the second time this )
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: liesl78;51464
Exactly, Marco Aurelio is buying them time - on itself, disgusting - just like he did with the ADPF and in the end he voted against it. Meanwhile, they appeal, appeal, appeal!!!!!!!!

Precisely.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Janet Countryman on December 17, 2009, 03:13:10 PM
Quote from: Irish17;51397
Shame on Brazil!! Shame on you.
 
This ruling, this injustice this is wrong on so many levels!!!
 
brazil, the court system had their chance to do the correct, the proper thing with all of the world watching, yet they blew it. Now the world sees brazil for what they really are. A country that does not honor their commitments, their treaties and common decsency to all.
 
Shame on Brazil, Shame on Brazil!!!
I agree - SHAME ON BRAZIL!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: momof3inPA on December 17, 2009, 03:13:33 PM
This is beyond disheartening, disgusting, disappointing....  and all the other "dis" word that apply.
 
Prayers going out to David and family, and to Sean.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:14:52 PM
The official press release:
 
Quinta-feira, 17 de Dezembro de 2009
Caso Goldman: ministro suspende decisão que mandava entregar menino

O ministro do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF) Marco Aurélio concedeu, na tarde desta quinta-feira (17), liminar em Habeas Corpus (HC 101985) em favor do menor S.R.G., para suspender a decisão do Tribunal Regional Federal da 3ª Região, que determinou a entrega do menor ao consulado americano – em 48 horas, para que o menino fosse encaminhado aos Estados Unidos da América e entregue para seu pai biológico, David Goldman.
O pedido foi ajuizado no STF pela avó do menor, Silvia Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, para que o menino fosse ouvido em juízo antes que a justiça decidisse seu futuro. Silvia quer que S.R.G. possa se manifestar e revelar, à justiça, se quer realmente ir para os EUA, ou continuar morando no Brasil com a família brasileira – padrasto, avós maternos e irmã.
Em sua decisão, o ministro revela que, a criança, em momento algum, foi ouvida diretamente pela justiça brasileira. Para o ministro Marco Aurélio, S.R.G. – que está prestes a completar dez anos, estaria, de início, em idade suficiente a pronunciar-se sobre se prefere retornar aos EUA ou permanecer no Brasil.
“Faz-se em jogo uma vida em plena formação. Fazem-se em jogo o direito de ir e vir, o direito de opinião e expressão bem como a dignidade humana”, frisou o ministro, lembrando que a Convenção sobre os Direitos da Criança e do Adolescente prevê “a manifestação da criança e a recusa à entrega quando essa deixar de ser compatível com os princípios fundamentais do estado requerido ligados à proteção dos direitos humanos e das liberdades fundamentais”.
A decisão do ministro suspende a decisão do TRF-3 até que o Supremo julgue o mérito de outro Habeas Corpus ajuizado na Corte pela avó do menino (HC 99945), tratando do mesmo tema.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:16:51 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51478
The official press release:
 
Quinta-feira, 17 de Dezembro de 2009
Caso Goldman: ministro suspende decisão que mandava entregar menino
 
O ministro do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF) Marco Aurélio concedeu, na tarde desta quinta-feira (17), liminar em Habeas Corpus (HC 101985) em favor do menor S.R.G., para suspender a decisão do Tribunal Regional Federal da 3ª Região, que determinou a entrega do menor ao consulado americano – em 48 horas, para que o menino fosse encaminhado aos Estados Unidos da América e entregue para seu pai biológico, David Goldman.
O pedido foi ajuizado no STF pela avó do menor, Silvia Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, para que o menino fosse ouvido em juízo antes que a justiça decidisse seu futuro. Silvia quer que S.R.G. possa se manifestar e revelar, à justiça, se quer realmente ir para os EUA, ou continuar morando no Brasil com a família brasileira – padrasto, avós maternos e irmã.
Em sua decisão, o ministro revela que, a criança, em momento algum, foi ouvida diretamente pela justiça brasileira. Para o ministro Marco Aurélio, S.R.G. – que está prestes a completar dez anos, estaria, de início, em idade suficiente a pronunciar-se sobre se prefere retornar aos EUA ou permanecer no Brasil.
“Faz-se em jogo uma vida em plena formação. Fazem-se em jogo o direito de ir e vir, o direito de opinião e expressão bem como a dignidade humana”, frisou o ministro, lembrando que a Convenção sobre os Direitos da Criança e do Adolescente prevê “a manifestação da criança e a recusa à entrega quando essa deixar de ser compatível com os princípios fundamentais do estado requerido ligados à proteção dos direitos humanos e das liberdades fundamentais”.
A decisão do ministro suspende a decisão do TRF-3 até que o Supremo julgue o mérito de outro Habeas Corpus ajuizado na Corte pela avó do menino (HC 99945), tratando do mesmo tema.

 
The full ruling has not been released, but its operative part has. It reads:
 
"Defiro a liminar para manter, por ora, a situação fática de permanência do menor no País. Afasto, assim, a eficácia do acórdão proferido pelo Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região na Apelação Cível nº 2008.51.01.018422-0, do qual resulta a ordem peremptória de entrega do paciente ao Consulado americano na cidade do Rio de Janeiro em 48 horas.  "
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 03:17:20 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51462
Has there been a decision that Sean needs to be heard?
 
Probably not.
 
O GLOBO is saying that the STF decided that Sean "will stay in Brazil" (headline), but then you follow the link and this follows: "until the Habeas Corpus is decided by the full Court".
 
So basically, according to O GLOBO's not trustworthy reporting, Marco Aurélio basically ruled that it will be up for the full Court to decide if Sean is to be heard as requested by Silvana's HC, and that, until the full Court decides to either grant or reject Silvana's HC, the TRF-2 decision is stayed so that Sean cannot return to the U.S until a decision by the full STF is made on this topic.
 
And, in the end, the full STF may just decide that it is not up for them to decide the merits of this topic right now and accordingly the full Court may well quash the HC without ruling on the merits (as President Mendes did with the previous HC).
 
Of course, this will buy Tostes and L&S time to file whole host of appeals, from petitions asking for clarification of judgement addressed to TRF-2 to full special and extraordinary appeals to STJ and STF respectively. Then the presidency of TRF-2 will have to rule on the admissibility of such appeals, there will be Agravos de Instrumento to STJ or STF against any decision by the presidency of the TRF-2 not to certify the appeals as admissible, etc.
 
Plus, once the appeals are filed, Tostes will be able to ask the Presidency of TRF (before decision on the certification of the appeals as admissible or not) or the rapporteurs in STJ and STF for stays and injunctions.
 
So, todays ruling buys Tostes time and allows him to drag this case for at least another year, because even if the full STF quashes the HC, Tostes will have filed appeals in the main case (the abduction lawsut to which Silvana is not a party).

 
Completely agree. The danger of this ruling is that it allows Tostes the time to file the type of appeals in STJ and STFthat have kept Mr. Larivee in neverland since he received a 3-0 ruling from the same TRF-2 in October 2007.
 
In addition, a very close look should be taken at wire transfers from Switzerland to Marco Aurelio's offshore bank accounts.
 
Enough with the "independent judiciary" of Brazil. It is time for the executive branch of our government to step up and take action. In December 2008, President Bush suspended the GSP (duty-free trade status) of Bolivia for failing to cooperate with the United States on anti-drug efforts. Are America's children important enough for President Obama to do the same?
 
Heck, if I was President, I would expel the entire Brazilian diplomatic entourage, including the ambassador, from our country and tell him: "You can come back when you bring our kids back with you."
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: liesl78 on December 17, 2009, 03:17:24 PM
In a country where the judiciary is so slow, doesn't anyone down there wonder how come this family gets injunctions so quickly?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 03:17:57 PM
Someone needs to go to Brazil, either SOS Clinton or her husband.  Bill's presence seems to be able to rescue all kinds of people from all kinds of places.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 17, 2009, 03:17:57 PM
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=118031

 Notícias STF                     Imprimir (http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=118031#)                  
                    Quinta-feira, 17 de Dezembro de 2009                Caso Goldman: ministro suspende decisão que mandava entregar menino
                 
O ministro do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF) Marco Aurélio concedeu, na tarde desta quinta-feira (17), liminar em Habeas Corpus (HC 101985) em favor do menor S.R.G., para suspender a decisão do Tribunal Regional Federal da 3ª Região, que determinou a entrega do menor ao consulado americano – em 48 horas, para que o menino fosse encaminhado aos Estados Unidos da América e entregue para seu pai biológico, David Goldman.
 O pedido foi ajuizado no STF pela avó do menor, Silvia Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, para que o menino fosse ouvido em juízo antes que a justiça decidisse seu futuro. Silvia quer que S.R.G. possa se manifestar e revelar, à justiça, se quer realmente ir para os EUA, ou continuar morando no Brasil com a família brasileira – padrasto, avós maternos e irmã.
 Em sua decisão, o ministro revela que, a criança, em momento algum, foi ouvida diretamente pela justiça brasileira. Para o ministro Marco Aurélio, S.R.G. – que está prestes a completar dez anos, estaria, de início, em idade suficiente a pronunciar-se sobre se prefere retornar aos EUA ou permanecer no Brasil.
 “Faz-se em jogo uma vida em plena formação. Fazem-se em jogo o direito de ir e vir, o direito de opinião e expressão bem como a dignidade humana”, frisou o ministro, lembrando que a Convenção sobre os Direitos da Criança e do Adolescente prevê “a manifestação da criança e a recusa à entrega quando essa deixar de ser compatível com os princípios fundamentais do estado requerido ligados à proteção dos direitos humanos e das liberdades fundamentais”.
 A decisão do ministro suspende a decisão do TRF-3 até que o Supremo julgue o mérito de outro Habeas Corpus ajuizado na Corte pela avó do menino (HC 99945), tratando do mesmo tema.
 MB/LF
 * Acompanhe o dia a dia do STF em nosso endereço eletrônico no Twitter: http://twitter.com/stf_oficial
 
           
           
Processos relacionados
HC 101985 (http://"http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/processo/verProcessoAndamento.asp?numero=101985&classe=HC&origem=AP&recurso=0&tipoJulgamento=M)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tdmiller on December 17, 2009, 03:18:54 PM
Quote from: liesl78;51481
In a country where the judiciary is so slow, doesn't anyone down there wonder how come this family gets injunctions so quickly?

Deep Pockets!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 03:19:14 PM
He is 9 years old or crying out loud!! Kids that age do not know what is best for them and their notion of right and wrong comes from what the adults in their lives are telling them!! 9 year olds cannot do whatever they please, they follow their parents, and he has a parent!!! This is so disgusting that I speechless, shocked.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 03:19:30 PM
official press release:

Thursday, December 17, 2009
If Goldman: Minister suspends decision sent deliver boy

The minister of the Supreme Court (STF) Marcus Aurelius granted on the afternoon of Thursday (17), preliminary in Habeas Corpus (HC 101985) on behalf of the minor SRG to suspend the decision of the Tribunal Regional Federal da 3 ª Região, which determined to deliver the child to the U.S. consulate - in 48 hours, so that the boy was sent to the United States of America and given to her biological father, David Goldman.
The application was reversed by the Supreme Court grandmother of the child, Silvia Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, that the boy was heard in court before a judge to decide their future. Silvia wants S.R.G. can manifest and reveal, to justice, if you really want to go to the U.S., or continue living in Brazil with the Brazilian family - step-father, maternal grandparents and sister.
In its decision, the minister revealed that the child at any time, was heard directly by the Brazilian courts. To the Minister Marco Aurelio, S.R.G. - That is about to complete ten years, would initially be old enough to decide whether the U.S. prefers to return or stay in Brazil.
"It is a life at stake in full training. They are in the right game to come and go, the right of opinion and expression and human dignity, "said the minister, noting that the Convention on the Rights of Children and Adolescents provides for" the manifestation of the child and refusing to delivery when that is no longer compatible with the fundamental principles of the requested State relating to the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms ".
His decision set aside the decision of the TRF-3 until the Supreme judge the merits of another wise Habeas Corpus in the Court by the boy's grandmother (HC 99945), for the same purpose.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 03:20:02 PM
Boycott the Olympics. Forget the money from sponsors.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 03:20:16 PM
Quote from: BrazilianFriend;51483
http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=118031
 
Notícias STF                         Imprimir (http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/cms/verNoticiaDetalhe.asp?idConteudo=118031#)                  
                  Quinta-feira, 17 de Dezembro de 2009              Caso Goldman: ministro suspende decisão que mandava entregar menino
 
O ministro do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF) Marco Aurélio concedeu, na tarde desta quinta-feira (17), liminar em Habeas Corpus (HC 101985) em favor do menor S.R.G., para suspender a decisão do Tribunal Regional Federal da 3ª Região, que determinou a entrega do menor ao consulado americano – em 48 horas, para que o menino fosse encaminhado aos Estados Unidos da América e entregue para seu pai biológico, David Goldman.
O pedido foi ajuizado no STF pela avó do menor, Silvia Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, para que o menino fosse ouvido em juízo antes que a justiça decidisse seu futuro. Silvia quer que S.R.G. possa se manifestar e revelar, à justiça, se quer realmente ir para os EUA, ou continuar morando no Brasil com a família brasileira – padrasto, avós maternos e irmã.
Em sua decisão, o ministro revela que, a criança, em momento algum, foi ouvida diretamente pela justiça brasileira. Para o ministro Marco Aurélio, S.R.G. – que está prestes a completar dez anos, estaria, de início, em idade suficiente a pronunciar-se sobre se prefere retornar aos EUA ou permanecer no Brasil.
“Faz-se em jogo uma vida em plena formação. Fazem-se em jogo o direito de ir e vir, o direito de opinião e expressão bem como a dignidade humana”, frisou o ministro, lembrando que a Convenção sobre os Direitos da Criança e do Adolescente prevê “a manifestação da criança e a recusa à entrega quando essa deixar de ser compatível com os princípios fundamentais do estado requerido ligados à proteção dos direitos humanos e das liberdades fundamentais”.
A decisão do ministro suspende a decisão do TRF-3 até que o Supremo julgue o mérito de outro Habeas Corpus ajuizado na Corte pela avó do menino (HC 99945), tratando do mesmo tema.
MB/LF
* Acompanhe o dia a dia do STF em nosso endereço eletrônico no Twitter: http://twitter.com/stf_oficial
 
 
         
Processos relacionados
HC 101985 (http://"http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/processo/verProcessoAndamento.asp?numero=101985&classe=HC&origem=AP&recurso=0&tipoJulgamento=M)

can someone please translate this?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:21:46 PM
One final comment before I log out for today, Marco Aurélio is a member of the highest judicial body of Brazil, the Supreme Court of Brazil. This is now the second time this )
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: liesl78 on December 17, 2009, 03:21:55 PM
He says Sean has the right to have an opinion. he also had one in Tinton Falls, on June 2004, when he was taken away. Did anyone ask him if he wanted to go????
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 03:23:07 PM
five years of abuse and brainwashing and NOW they want to ask the opinion of a 9 year-old whose been subjected to abuse!?  It's SICK the lengths that witch will go to.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 03:23:48 PM
Quote from: Grace;51487
Boycott the Olympics. Forget the money from sponsors.


Exactly....the mere mention of this gets Sean home immediately.  A simple press release saying how disappointed Obama is and the mention of a boycott and it's over.  The nightmare would be over.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:24:31 PM
According to the press release, Marco Aurélio's ruling clearly expresses his opinion that a child like Sean would be capable enough to be formally heard in Court on his wish to go or stay.
 
And the press release also mentions another Convention, not Hague. The "Convention on the Rights of Children and Adolescents".
 
So, we know that Marco Aurélio's mind is made up, he is, and will always be, a vote against Sean's return, at least unless Sean ends up declaring in a formal deposition that he wants to go.
 
This means that Marco Aurélio will continue granting every stay possible until this thing becomes res judicata.
 
It it all happens very very quickly, it will take at least one year. And, of course, as judge rapporteur, Marco Aurélio can be slow himself if it suits his wishes.
 
I'm disgusted.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Priss on December 17, 2009, 03:24:35 PM
This is so not fair, the judge Pinto already said that the boy could NOT be heard because there was obvious signs of parental alienation being done by this low down scum worse then the worst should be lined up and shot.  This time the whole world saw Brazil not comply with an International treaty that they willingly signed.  Has now proved that Brazil is still a 3rd world country, won't be able to play with the big boy and none of us can trust them.  SO FREAKIN MAD RIGHT NOW!!!!   :mad2::mad2::mad2:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bree on December 17, 2009, 03:24:58 PM
Quote from: anna42;51413
Why not? This is wrong! Where is Clinton and Obama?

Clinton is in Copenhagen, where I do believe Obama will also be tomorrow...and perhaps Lula.
 
 
Quote from: tdmiller;51469
Be patient calling the White House comment line.........it is very backed up. The woman I spoke to told me she will add my comments to the hundreds they have gotten today. Hillary Clinton's mailbox is full, and they divert you to a recording. Don't give up. She should have been on that plane with David! Shame on our government for allowing this fiasco to continue.....but mostly the SHAME IS ON BRAZIL!

Hillary isn't in the US...she couldn't have gone to Brazil with David, but perhaps Bill could. I hear he is excellent in getting people out of hostage situations and IMO this is what Sean is in. He is being held hostage in Brazil! Do they really think that he would tell a judge that he wants to go home to his Dad? The same Dad that he has instructions not to call Dad, not to tell him that he loves him, etc.



This "stay" is disgusting!!!

:mad2: SHAME ON BRAZIL
and shame on you,
Marco Aurélio!!!! :mad2:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:26:39 PM
One final comment before I log out for today, Marco Aurélio is a member of the highest judicial body of Brazil, the Supreme Court of Brazil. This is now the second time this )
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: André Felipe on December 17, 2009, 03:27:36 PM
I am shocked.
A staying order coming from Habeas Corpus!!??
I hardly can wait to hear what the others Ministers have to say about this...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: UD_student on December 17, 2009, 03:30:52 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51500
I am shocked.
A staying order coming from Habeas Corpus!!??
I hardly can wait to hear what the others Ministers have to say about this...

André Felipe [or Roger or Tunevsk], can the other ministers simply voice their opinions or can they legally do anything to expedite the process of denying the HC to permit Sean to come home before more appeals are filed? I'm just curious of anything can be done before February (other than hear about what appeals the dark side will file)?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51480
Completely agree. The danger of this ruling is that it allows Tostes the time to file the type of appeals in STJ and STFthat have kept Mr. Larivee in neverland since he received a 3-0 ruling from the same TRF-2 in October 2007.

 
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but do you really believe this is an accident?  The plan is to drag out the proceedings until the bitter end because they have no legal claim to custody.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 03:31:36 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51500
I am shocked.
A staying order coming from Habeas Corpus!!??
I hardly can wait to hear what the others Ministers have to say about this...

 
If the full court is still in session through tomorrow, why couldn't they rule on the HC in the next 24 hours?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bree on December 17, 2009, 03:32:24 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51500
I am shocked.
A staying order coming from Habeas Corpus!!??
I hardly can wait to hear what the others Ministers have to say about this...

I hope to God that they tell him he should be ashamed of himself!
 
I'm shocked and thoroughly disgusted.  I wonder how Marco Aurélio would feel if his wife took his son and left and refused visitation for 5 years?  I wonder how he would feel if the courts kept rejecting him?  But, I suppose to have any feelings, he would have to have a heart and today he has once again proven that to be a falsity.  Yes, I'm p*ssed and I'm ranting.  So, please excuse me.  :madgo:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51503
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but do you really believe this is an accident? The plan is to drag out the proceedings until the bitter end because they have no legal claim to custody.

I agree with you.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 03:32:42 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51478
The official press release:
 
Quinta-feira, 17 de Dezembro de 2009
Caso Goldman: ministro suspende decisão que mandava entregar menino
 
O ministro do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF) Marco Aurélio concedeu, na tarde desta quinta-feira (17), liminar em Habeas Corpus (HC 101985) em favor do menor S.R.G., para suspender a decisão do Tribunal Regional Federal da 3ª Região, que determinou a entrega do menor ao consulado americano – em 48 horas, para que o menino fosse encaminhado aos Estados Unidos da América e entregue para seu pai biológico, David Goldman.
O pedido foi ajuizado no STF pela avó do menor, Silvia Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro, para que o menino fosse ouvido em juízo antes que a justiça decidisse seu futuro. Silvia quer que S.R.G. possa se manifestar e revelar, à justiça, se quer realmente ir para os EUA, ou continuar morando no Brasil com a família brasileira – padrasto, avós maternos e irmã.
Em sua decisão, o ministro revela que, a criança, em momento algum, foi ouvida diretamente pela justiça brasileira. Para o ministro Marco Aurélio, S.R.G. – que está prestes a completar dez anos, estaria, de início, em idade suficiente a pronunciar-se sobre se prefere retornar aos EUA ou permanecer no Brasil.
“Faz-se em jogo uma vida em plena formação. Fazem-se em jogo o direito de ir e vir, o direito de opinião e expressão bem como a dignidade humana”, frisou o ministro, lembrando que a Convenção sobre os Direitos da Criança e do Adolescente prevê “a manifestação da criança e a recusa à entrega quando essa deixar de ser compatível com os princípios fundamentais do estado requerido ligados à proteção dos direitos humanos e das liberdades fundamentais”.
A decisão do ministro suspende a decisão do TRF-3 até que o Supremo julgue o mérito de outro Habeas Corpus ajuizado na Corte pela avó do menino (HC 99945), tratando do mesmo tema.
COMPLETE AND UTTER NONSENSE!!!!!!! SHAMEFUL and bringing Brazil into much disgrace.:cloud::cloud::cloud:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51500
I am shocked.
A staying order coming from Habeas Corpus!!??
I hardly can wait to hear what the others Ministers have to say about this...

 
What they will have to say is irrelevant for our purposes, because, by then, Recurso Especial, Recurso Extraordinário, possible Agravos de Instrumento and Medidas Cautelares will have been filed in the main action, not to mention Embargos de Declaração.
 
I'm convinced that Marco Aurélio will keep Sean in Brazil until the whole host of appeals is finished and the case becomes res judicata.
 
And Tostes will then file an ação rescisória.
 
This is nightmarish.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 03:33:20 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51504
If the full court is still in session through tomorrow, why couldn't they rule on the HC in the next 24 hours?

Aurelio would not have submitted his decision if he thought there was a chance of that happening.  The timing of the appeal ruling and the HC decision show that the judiciary is making sure that the dark side has time to reload their guns and delay another proceding until February.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Genenut on December 17, 2009, 03:34:19 PM
I think I have to get off the net for a while today now ... right now all I can think of is how one well placed sniper with 4 bullets would solve this issue very quickly in David's favor.... Its time for me to take a break *sigh* But the brazilian govt SUCKS!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jessica on December 17, 2009, 03:35:10 PM
Speachless!!!!!   It looks like they love to wait till David get's to Rio and pull the rug out from under his feet!!!!  Do they hope that if they keep jacking with him that he will eventually give up?????  If he hasn't given up in the past 5 1/2 years he will not give up now!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 03:35:26 PM
Chopchop called it. Despite misgivings, I was hoping that MA would finally do the right thing this time but apparently power-tripping and pandering always win out.
 
A Supreme Court Judge no less, publicly voices his bias towards the family's position and then gets to rule on the same HC that the President of the STF previously rejected. You can't make this stuff up. This is June redux. He's making the whole STF and Brazil by extension, look foolish quite frankly (and like I said a while back, I can't shake the feeling that the added benefit is some sort of enjoyment about embarassing Lula in the process).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:35:35 PM
Quote from: lovellboys;51509
Aurelio would not have submitted his decision if he thought there was a chance of that happening. The timing of the appeal ruling and the HC decision show that the judiciary is making sure that the dark side has time to reload their guns and delay another proceding until February.

Because it is Aurélio, as rapporteur, who decides when he is ready to submit the case to the full Court. It is within his power to wait until hell freezes over.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Luc on December 17, 2009, 03:35:44 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51495
According to the press release, Marco Aurélio's ruling clearly expresses his opinion that a child like Sean would be capable enough to be formally heard in Court on his wish to go or stay.
 
And the press release also mentions another Convention, not Hague. The "Convention on the Rights of Children and Adolescents".
 
So, we know that Marco Aurélio's mind is made up, he is, and will always be, a vote against Sean's return, at least unless Sean ends up declaring in a formal deposition that he wants to go.
 
This means that Marco Aurélio will continue granting every stay possible until this thing becomes res judicata.
 
It it all happens very very quickly, it will take at least one year. And, of course, as judge rapporteur, Marco Aurélio can be slow himself if it suits his wishes.
 
I'm disgusted.


This is so sad,  I can't believe they were able to buy another year or more! This is not justice!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jessica on December 17, 2009, 03:36:15 PM
They are doing a story on CNN right now.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51500
I am shocked.
A staying order coming from Habeas Corpus!!??
I hardly can wait to hear what the others Ministers have to say about this...
So much for a "champion of truth:. Andre - I/we all respect you... however, you need to get another judge to really admire and respect. Aurelio is truthfully - scum! In reading his considerations in this case, I am shocked at the level of non-intelligence this man represents. HE IS A SHAME FOR ALL BRAZILIAN... and brings your nation to much disgrace before the entire world. I vote to STOP any/all funds and support for Olympics, FFIA, etc., etc. The sooner this is accomplished the sooner Sean (and all the other children this nation likes to keep illegally) can be returned home (USA, Australia, Austria, etc.).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:39:05 PM
One final comment before I log out for today, Marco Aurélio is a member of the highest judicial body of Brazil, The Supreme Court of Brazil. This now is the second time this "justice" has done the kidnappers judicial bidding. The only reason Sean is not home with David right now is directly connected to this single "justice"...because of this, I don't think this case is over by a long shot unfortunately...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: kim in socal on December 17, 2009, 03:39:18 PM
Reply to Genenut
 
Me too...having really bad thoughts right now plus the only thing I had to eat today is the 1/2 box of chocolates I finished this morning...
My heart is broken AND I am pissed!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:39:53 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51514
Because it is Aurélio, as rapporteur, who decides when he is ready to submit the case to the full Court. It is within his power to wait until hell freezes over.

Plus, if i'm not mistaken, there won't be a judgement session tomorrow.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: heather on December 17, 2009, 03:40:12 PM
I really don't get this.  Judge Pinto clearly stated that (3) three court appointed pshycologists said that the boy is suffering from parental alienation.  The pshycologist report the Brazilian family did after Judge Pinto's ruling that was leaked cleary shows that this boy has been manipulated, coerced, and alienated.  Just unbelievable! Any person could clearly see how he was led into the answers for crying out loud. How about he live with David for 6 years and then he can decide where.  Brazil just showed that they have no intentions on following the Hague Convention and that if you abduct a child to Brazil you can forever delay the return of the child through the judicial system.  I have read that Seans grandmother has said that she will delay delay delay until Sean is 16 that way he will stay in Brazil and boy was she not kidding.  Time for our Government to speak up, swiftly, like yesterday already. This is very unexceptable.  I am going to keep making my calls today to my ears fall off.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sandra on December 17, 2009, 03:43:50 PM
I'm so sorry about David's parents also. My heart is brocken!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: five4me on December 17, 2009, 03:45:21 PM
Unbelievable. (Well, not really.)  
 
Does anyone know if they can stop David from seeing Sean?  Does the injuction just prevent Sean from leaving Brazil but doesn't stop David having custody w/in Brazil?
 
I've followed this site and the story for over a year.  Each time you think it can't get worse, it does.  If Brazil can blatantly ignore the Hague Convention in such a well-publicized case, I hate to think what they are doing with the other 60+ kids' cases that aren't receiving the media attention.  It's just so WRONG.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Luc on December 17, 2009, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51508
What they will have to say is irrelevant for our purposes, because, by then, Recurso Especial, Recurso Extraordinário, possible Agravos de Instrumento and Medidas Cautelares will have been filed in the main action, not to mention Embargos de Declaração.
 
I'm convinced that Marco Aurélio will keep Sean in Brazil until the whole host of appeals is finished and the case becomes res judicata.
 
And Tostes will then file an ação rescisória.
 
This is nightmarish.


Do you think the only way to get Sean out of Brazil is to pass new legislation to expedite Hague cases in court? How close is this to happen do you know?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: momof3inPA on December 17, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
Today's development is now on the msn homepage...
 
http://www.msn.com
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:46:50 PM
Quote from: Lexi;51513
Chopchop called it. Despite misgivings, I was hoping that MA would finally do the right thing this time but apparently power-tripping and pandering always win out.
 
A Supreme Court Judge no less, publicly voices his bias towards the family's position and then gets to rule on the same HC that the President of the STF previously rejected. You can't make this stuff up. This is June redux. He's making the whole STF and Brazil by extension, look foolish quite frankly (and like I said a while back, I can't shake the feeling that the added benefit is some sort of enjoyment about embarassing Lula in the process).

Final shot for today, promise.

Since when did hypocrisy stop any of these clowns, have you heard the name )

Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: noah3698 on December 17, 2009, 03:47:46 PM
Can someone clarify something for me?  Did the Marco Aurélio decide that Habeas  Corpus is granted and Sean will be heard or is this something like the last time where he issued a stay becuase they will consider the HC?  I guess what I am asking is....does this mean the court will definately hear from Sean?
 
So mad and confused....
 
-Chrissy
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: greg4sean on December 17, 2009, 03:47:55 PM
To our Guests: This is just another example of why we need H.R.3240. Look at this history of just this case let alone the others from all over the world. Please get involved and push Congress today and every day to pass H.R. 3240.

:mad2:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 03:48:15 PM

Quote from: lbl;51524
There is only one solution : It's only a question of money in Brazil thus if USA would join other countries whom also have abducted children in Brazil (Canada, France, Australia,..) and impose economic sanctions for non-respect of the Hague Convention, this would put REAL pressure on Brazil. It's the only way to get some children back! Forget about the Court system overthere...
[/B][/SIZE]

:yeahthat:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 03:48:34 PM
Quote from: lbl;51524
There is only one solution : It's only a question of money in Brazil thus if USA would join other countries whom also have abducted children in Brazil (Canada, France, Australia,..) and impose economic sanctions for non-respect of the Hague Convention, this would put REAL pressure on Brazil.  It's the only way to get some children back!  Forget about the Court system overthere...


Correct...this case cannot be settled in the Brazilian "judicial system".  Only US economic pressure (i.e. sanctions/Olympic boycott) will get Sean home.  The courts will never release him.  Brazil is a 3rd world country and must be treated as such.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 03:49:50 PM
This is truly a monkey-court! Either they step into the 21st Century and deal with this appropriately... or they simple remain "as-is" and begin a deterioration process (already started). Fancy buildings do not mean "advancement" and "power" (remember the Roman Empire?).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 03:53:34 PM
Quote from: Lexi;51513
Chopchop called it. Despite misgivings, I was hoping that MA would finally do the right thing this time but apparently power-tripping and pandering always win out.
 
A Supreme Court Judge no less, publicly voices his bias towards the family's position and then gets to rule on the same HC that the President of the STF previously rejected. You can't make this stuff up. This is June redux. He's making the whole STF and Brazil by extension, look foolish quite frankly (and like I said a while back, I can't shake the feeling that the added benefit is some sort of enjoyment about embarassing Lula in the process).

 
It's called corruption at the highest level. Furthermore, since when did shame and hipocrisy stop any of these clowns? Have you heard the name "Joe Lieberman" lately, seriously. This was coming like a freight train down the railroad tracks. I don't like to say this out loud on the forum, but I'm begining to doubt if David will ever win custody of Sean.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 03:54:21 PM
Do we have any reaction from Apy, Zamariola or Chris Smith?  I am sincerely hoping that David will at least get a chance to see Sean.  All these rulings in his favor and he is not even allowed to share a soda with his son?  The courts, even if they issue a stay, should be demanding that visitation commence without interferance.
 
How come David's team can't file an HC in that regard?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Dan_Plainview on December 17, 2009, 03:54:32 PM
Quote from: noah3698;51531
Can someone clarify something for me?  Did the Marco Aurélio decide that Habeas  Corpus is granted and Sean will be heard or is this something like the last time where he issued a stay becuase they will consider the HC?  I guess what I am asking is....does this mean the court will definately hear from Sean?
 
So mad and confused....
 
-Chrissy

Post #219 in this thread (page 22) by Tunevsk explains this well
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: five4me on December 17, 2009, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: dsturnerjr;51534
Correct...this case cannot be settled in the Brazilian "judicial system".

But isn't the WHOLE POINT that it shouldn't have ever been tried in the Brazilian "judicial system"?!?  Isn't that the whole point of the Hague Convention?!?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: momof3inPA on December 17, 2009, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: lbl;51524
There is only one solution : It's only a question of money in Brazil thus if USA would join other countries whom also have abducted children in Brazil (Canada, France, Australia,..) and impose economic sanctions for non-respect of the Hague Convention, this would put REAL pressure on Brazil. It's the only way to get some children back! Forget about the Court system overthere...

I've been a lurker here for almost a year and follow this as closely as I can.  Granted I haven't been able to read everything that's been posted, but wasn't there mention yesterday that Lula has no official influence over the judicial branch?  Maybe I'm naive, but if the US were to impose economic sanctions, wouldn't corrupt judges not give a d**n?  (After all I'm they're certainly not hurting for money....)
 
:conf::conf::conf:    and  :burn::burn::burn:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: Luc;51526
Do you think the only way to get Sean out of Brazil is to pass new legislation to expedite Hague cases in court? How close is this to happen do you know?

There isn't even a bill before Congress. A working group has drawn up a draft bill. If Sean case needed to wait for Congress, then all would be lost.
 
The ideal solution now would be this:
 
(i) STF meets in February, decides to take up Sean's case immediately (unlikely, because Aurélio has to present the case for judgment), and quashes the HC, rescinding Marco Aurélio's stay injunction.
 
(ii) even if Tostes files appeals, no other judge, that is, neither the President of the TRF (that will have jurisdiction to certify the appeal as admissible or not), nor any Minister in the STJ, nor any Minister in the STF, grants a stay to the main appeals.
 
The problem with this is that as soon as the main appeals directed to STJ and STF are judged inadmissible by TRF-2 (a decision on both appeals is symultaneous), Tostes will file Agravos de Instrumento challenging that and then Marco Aurélio will gain jurisdiction to grant a stay to the Agravo de Instrumento addressed to the STF.
 
Given that Marco Aurélio has been chosen by lot as rapporteur of the first case, he will be rapporteur of all cases, and his influence will be such that it will only end until a decision on the main appeal is made (with his dissenting opinion) by the STF and becomes res judicata.
 
In other words, we will have to wait months, until the end of all appeals.
 
And that is supposing that the other judges won't agree that the case needs to be remanded to Judge Pinto so that Sean be heard on the witness stand.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: greg4sean on December 17, 2009, 03:59:46 PM
Quote from: momof3inPA;51542
I've been a lurker here for almost a year and follow this as closely as I can. Granted I haven't been able to read everything that's been posted, but wasn't there mention yesterday that Lula has no official influence over the judicial branch? Maybe I'm naive, but if the US were to impose economic sanctions, wouldn't corrupt judges not give a d**n? (After all I'm they're certainly not hurting for money....)
 
:conf::conf::conf: and :burn::burn::burn:

He and the legislative branch can change the laws and system.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: zipbags on December 17, 2009, 04:01:53 PM
Like I said before.  They are never letting Sean come home.  Unless Obama really puts the screws down (ie-sanctions).  I wish I was wrong.  But, every delay is months not days.  And these month delays are adding up to years.  Just what they want.  I SO wish I was wrong.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: william2009 on December 17, 2009, 04:05:25 PM
Noooo, this hit me like a ton of bricks!!!!
i was really hoping that this would end for David
everyday this keeps going it really is making the Brazilian government look really bad
i am so embarrassed of the things that the courts have done
i cant stand the thought of have to wait another 2 months just for another ruling that might get rejected
i will stay praying for David
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 04:06:26 PM
Well, Marco Aurélio faces mandatory retirement in 2016.
 
But - at least in custody cases - minors 12 and older in Brazil need, as of right, to be heard on their wishes concerning custody. I know, I know, this is not a custody case.
 
But Marco Aurélio may well attempt an analogical application of that rule to Sean's case in two years time, if he manages to drag the case until then
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 04:06:41 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51543
(i) STF meets in February, decides to take up Sean's case immediately (unlikely, because Aurélio has to present the case for judgment), and quashes the HC, rescinding Marco Aurélio's stay injunction.
 

Any chance that the STF other ministers decide to judge all the complete case and not only the HC?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 04:07:33 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51550
Well, Marco Aurélio faces mandatory retirement in 2016.
 
But - at least in custody cases - minors 12 and older in Brazil need, as of right, to be heard on their wishes concerning custody. I know, I know, this is not a custody case.
 
But Marco Aurélio may well attempt an analogical application of that rule to Sean's case in two years time, if he manages to drag the case until then

What I mean is: there is no kidding ourselves: the future is bleak.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 04:07:54 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51543
There isn't even a bill before Congress. A working group has drawn up a draft bill. If Sean case needed to wait for Congress, then all would be lost.
 
The ideal solution now would be this:
 
(i) STF meets in February, decides to take up Sean's case immediately (unlikely, because Aurélio has to present the case for judgment), and quashes the HC, rescinding Marco Aurélio's stay injunction.
 
(ii) even if Tostes files appeals, no other judge, that is, neither the President of the TRF (that will have jurisdiction to certify the appeal as admissible or not), nor any Minister in the STJ, nor any Minister in the STF, grants a stay to the main appeals.
 
The problem with this is that as soon as the main appeals directed to STJ and STF are judged inadmissible by TRF-2 (a decision on both appeals is symultaneous), Tostes will file Agravos de Instrumento challenging that and then Marco Aurélio will gain jurisdiction to grant a stay to the Agravo de Instrumento addressed to the STF.
 
Given that Marco Aurélio has been chosen by lot as rapporteur of the first case, he will be rapporteur of all cases, and his influence will be such that it will only end until a decision on the main appeal is made (with his dissenting opinion) by the STF and becomes res judicata.
 
In other words, we will have to wait months, until the end of all appeals.
 
And that is supposing that the other judges won't agree that the case needs to be remanded to Judge Pinto so that Sean be heard on the witness stand.

The bottom line is as long as a "single" justice can issue a stay, this case will be stuck in endless appeals.  Let's face reality here, this HC plea should have never seen the light of day.  The fact that a "Supreme" court justice is carrying water for a stepfather and grandmother shows how completely ridiculous this whole process has become.  This is simply corruption of the Supreme Court of Brazil, no other conculsion is possible.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 04:08:12 PM
Quote from: acsgomes;51551
Any chance that the STF other ministers decide to judge all the complete case and not only the HC?

No. They can't do that.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 04:08:44 PM
The Globo comments are all of outrage with the decision. Brazilians themselves are ashamed of what's going on. The comments give me some hope with the human race. http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/caso-sean-ministro-do-stf-decide-pela-permanencia-do-menino-no-brasil-915253767.asp#coment
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Luc on December 17, 2009, 04:13:22 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51543
There isn't even a bill before Congress. A working group has drawn up a draft bill. If Sean case needed to wait for Congress, then all would be lost.
 
The ideal solution now would be this:
 
(i) STF meets in February, decides to take up Sean's case immediately (unlikely, because Aurélio has to present the case for judgment), and quashes the HC, rescinding Marco Aurélio's stay injunction.
 
(ii) even if Tostes files appeals, no other judge, that is, neither the President of the TRF (that will have jurisdiction to certify the appeal as admissible or not), nor any Minister in the STJ, nor any Minister in the STF, grants a stay to the main appeals.
 
The problem with this is that as soon as the main appeals directed to STJ and STF are judged inadmissible by TRF-2 (a decision on both appeals is symultaneous), Tostes will file Agravos de Instrumento challenging that and then Marco Aurélio will gain jurisdiction to grant a stay to the Agravo de Instrumento addressed to the STF.
 
Given that Marco Aurélio has been chosen by lot as rapporteur of the first case, he will be rapporteur of all cases, and his influence will be such that it will only end until a decision on the main appeal is made (with his dissenting opinion) by the STF and becomes res judicata.
 
In other words, we will have to wait months, until the end of all appeals.
 
And that is supposing that the other judges won't agree that the case needs to be remanded to Judge Pinto so that Sean be heard on the witness stand.

That's is really tragic! I am all for economic sanctions... may be it will make congress act before the justices can go through the mountain of appeal and procedures that Tostes is working on.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: Grace;51555
The Globo comments are all of outrage with the decision. Brazilians themselves are ashamed of what's going on. The comments give me some hope with the human race. http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/caso-sean-ministro-do-stf-decide-pela-permanencia-do-menino-no-brasil-915253767.asp#coment
I have never been a fan of using the Olympics as a political tool. But. This is NOT politics, this is human rights, an outrage. I would support a movement, maybe it starts here with BSH, maybe something else, threatening to boycott. That and U.S. governmental economic sanctions are the only thing that will get results. I am, like others, completely drained by this, but there is a fight to be had. This cannot stand.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 04:16:06 PM
Obama has the executive authority to enact the sanctions that Chris Smith is asking for in HR 2702 without anything being passed by Congress.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 04:19:02 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51561
Obama has the executive authority to enact the sanctions that Chris Smith is asking for in HR 2702 without anything being passed by Congress.
EXACTLY. HE COULD DO IT TOMORROW. AND HE SHOULD. NO CONTEMPLATING. NO THOUGHTFUL REFLECTION. JUST PULL THE TRIGGER.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 04:20:11 PM
Chris Smith just said on Blitzer's show that they will issue an immediate appeal to the full STF to be hopefully ruled on tomorrow.  There's absolutley no reason why this witch and her coven of kidnappers should get a prompt hearing on appeal while Davis should not.  He also said that the STF can, in fact, rule as a body while it is recessed.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: LDJVR on December 17, 2009, 04:20:41 PM
Congressman Chris Smith just now said there's still a chance on CNN situation room!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 04:22:00 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51554
No. They can't do that.

And the David's lawyer can not ask for suspicion of Marco Aurelio in the next appeals that reach the STF?
(http://www.qtl.co.il/img/copy.png)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 04:22:09 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51565
Chris Smith just said on Blitzer's show that they will issue an immediate appeal to the full STF to be hopefully ruled on tomorrow. There's absolutley no reason why this witch and her coven of kidnappers should get a prompt hearing on appeal while Davis should not. He also said that the STF can, in fact, rule as a body while it is recessed.

Thanks for the update Chuckles.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: M.Capestro on December 17, 2009, 04:22:50 PM
Andrea Mitchell tweets -- A ray of hope?
 
mitchellreports (http://twitter.com/mitchellreports)
   
David Goldman faces another delay, may not be longterm - termporary stay order from one judge just before close of business. more heartache
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 04:22:53 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51538
It's called corruption at the highest level. Furthermore, since when did shame and hipocrisy stop any of these clowns? Have you heard the name "Joe Lieberman" lately, seriously. This was coming like a freight train down the railroad tracks. I don't like to say this out loud on the forum, but I'm begining to doubt if David will ever win custody of Sean.

You're right. I felt conflicted about which way this ruling would go because while I was well aware of his totally outrageous previous actions and that didn't bode well, I had to hold out some hope. It's appalling and it makes me wonder how often middle-class and poorer Brazilians themselves receive justice within this system. Not often I suspect.
 
About your last point, I know where you're coming from but I and others here can't accept that.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 04:25:45 PM
Quote from: M.Capestro;51571
Andrea Mitchell tweets -- A ray of hope?
 
mitchellreports (http://twitter.com/mitchellreports)
 
David Goldman faces another delay, may not be longterm - termporary stay order from one judge just before close of business. more heartache
But does she have the detail of the stay being effective until FEB that was reported here???
 
I think we want to hear from David, Apy, someone really close to the situation to see if there is any reason to be hopeful. Sorry, but Andrea is not in that club.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 04:27:11 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51565
Chris Smith just said on Blitzer's show that they will issue an immediate appeal to the full STF to be hopefully ruled on tomorrow.  There's absolutley no reason why this witch and her coven of kidnappers should get a prompt hearing on appeal while Davis should not.  He also said that the STF can, in fact, rule as a body while it is recessed.


Is there a link, please?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 04:27:17 PM
Again, Smith, having just been in the same room with David and his advisors, said it isn't over quite yet.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 04:29:06 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51552
What I mean is: there is no kidding ourselves: the future is bleak.
Regardless... I have stood with/for David since BSH first started on-line and intend to stick with him until this case if done once and for all!!!! I WILL NOT GIVE UP.
 
As for MA - the Almighty has ways of dealing with him here and now... and to that end we can all pray and hope. He (MA) MAY think he is "all powerful" - but I have BIG news for him!!! And he will be judged and far more harshly than he is trying with David and Sean.
 
Somehow - some one - must get this proud and arrogant man to see just how truly stupid he has been - and even reverse his decision, which he CAN DO... but that takes "guts" and integrity!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 04:29:33 PM
Quote from: acsgomes;51577
Is there a link, please?
They don't put video up as the show is going on.  You can go to CNN.com and watch streaming video and see if they have another segment on it, but it was the lead story at the top of the show and then they had Smith on 20 minutes later.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: noah3698 on December 17, 2009, 04:33:21 PM
I know it is frowned upon to discuss the strategy of David's lawyers but  why can't his lawyers start use some of these legal loopholes that JPLS's legal team is using? There must be more they can do!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 04:33:49 PM
I don't want to be a killjoy here but let's face reality, this is a HC child abduction case about one child.  If a single justice of the Brazilian supreme court is able to de-rail and delay the proceedings indefinately then what good are an olympic boycott or economic sactions against Brazil going to do.  
 
I like our president, but look what is happening in the US right now.  The notion that President Obama is going to impose some kind of sactions on Brazil specifically in response to this case while the US is trying to deal with healthcare and the economy is wishful thinking at best.  Plus, if he did, it would be political suicide after Beck, O'Reilly and Fox news got ahold of it.  
 
We all know that Marco Aurélio's stay injunction is complete BS, but it is technically legal what he is doing.  Therefore, the Brazilian judiciary can always hide the implicit truth behind due process.  I agree with Tunevsk, the future is bleak.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 04:35:28 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51585
I don't want to be a killjoy here but let's face reality, this is a HC child abduction case about one child.  If a single justice of the Brazilian supreme court is able to de-rail and delay the proceedings indefinately then what good are an olympic boycott or economic sactions against Brazil going to do.  
 
I like our president, but look what is happening in the US right now.  The notion that President Obama is going to impose some kind of sactions on Brazil specifically in response to this case while the US is trying to deal with healthcare and the economy is wishful thinking at best.  Plus, if he did, it would be political suicide after Beck, O'Reilly and Fox news got ahold of it.  
 
We all know that Marco Aurélio's stay injunction is complete BS, but it is technically legal what he is doing.  Therefore, the Brazilian judiciary can always hide the implicit truth behind due process.  I agree with Tunevsk, the future is bleak.
then leave
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Dan_Plainview on December 17, 2009, 04:36:08 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51565
Chris Smith just said on Blitzer's show that they will issue an immediate appeal to the full STF to be hopefully ruled on tomorrow.  There's absolutley no reason why this witch and her coven of kidnappers should get a prompt hearing on appeal while Davis should not.  He also said that the STF can, in fact, rule as a body while it is recessed.

Whew! Go Mr. Z!!!!!!!!!!

11-1
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: kmoor88 on December 17, 2009, 04:37:59 PM
I just found out this horrible news. I am on hold with the White house, I have a really good comment for them today.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51586
then leave

 
Chuckles,
 
I am just as dissapointed as everyone else on this board and I will never stop supporting David's efforts.  Your comment was uncalled for...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 04:40:13 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51585
I don't want to be a killjoy here but let's face reality, this is a HC child abduction case about one child. If a single justice of the Brazilian supreme court is able to de-rail and delay the proceedings indefinately then what good are an olympic boycott or economic sactions against Brazil going to do.
 
I like our president, but look what is happening in the US right now. The notion that President Obama is going to impose some kind of sactions on Brazil specifically in response to this case while the US is trying to deal with healthcare and the economy is wishful thinking at best. Plus, if he did, it would be political suicide after Beck, O'Reilly and Fox news got ahold of it.
 
We all know that Marco Aurélio's stay injunction is complete BS, but it is technically legal what he is doing. Therefore, the Brazilian judiciary can always hide the implicit truth behind due process. I agree with Tunevsk, the future is bleak.

I would argue that if we can't protect America's children, what good is health care reform?
 
President Bush suspended Bolivia's GSP status as a lame duck for their failure to cooperate on the "war on drugs" in December 2008 in the midst of the US banking system near collapse. Can we not do the same for our children?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: M.Capestro on December 17, 2009, 04:41:28 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51575
But does she have the detail of the stay being effective until FEB that was reported here???
 
I think we want to hear from David, Apy, someone really close to the situation to see if there is any reason to be hopeful. Sorry, but Andrea is not in that club.

She follows this very closely. She was the one who broke the story yesterday on the STF ruling in favor of David.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 04:43:09 PM
We all need a bit of hope and optimism here folks.  I have those I pm back and forth and get very down and depressed with, but we are here because we believe in the cause.  We knew it would not be easy, but do we give up because one idiot judge likes to cause turmoil?  
 
There is ALWAYS hope.  If one stops believing that - then we might as well tear up the Hague and write off all our children as lost causes.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51591
Chuckles,
 
I am just as dissapointed as everyone else on this board and I will never stop supporting David's efforts.  Your comment was uncalled for...

Sorry, you're quite right.  On the other hand, we don't need the negativity at the moment nor the bad outlook opinions of folks who aren't directly involved in litigating the case.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Bree on December 17, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51592
I would argue that if we can't protect America's children, what good is health care reform?
 
President Bush suspended Bolivia's GSP status as a lame duck for their failure to cooperate on the "war on drugs" in December 2008 in the midst of the US banking system near collapse. Can we not do the same for our children?

I agree, President Obama needs to use his Presidential Powers and do what's necessary to show Brazil that we aren't going to be that sitting duck anymore whilst their corrupt minister does yet another favor for his friends.  
 
Enough is enough!!!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Aida on December 17, 2009, 04:47:04 PM
This too shall pass......but end will be the same. Sean Will come home! :)
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51592
I would argue that if we can't protect America's children, what good is health care reform?
 
President Bush suspended Bolivia's GSP status as a lame duck for their failure to cooperate on the "war on drugs" in December 2008 in the midst of the US banking system near collapse. Can we not do the same for our children?

 
James, all I'm trying to express is the unlikelyhood of our government having the political courage to do impose any penalties against Brazil in response to a single child Hague Convention claim.  Especially when the very Brazilian judicial body charged with the due process of the case can hide behind the law.
 
I have always supported David and will continue to do so, but I also want to have both feet on the ground.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 04:47:16 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51586
then leave
EXACTLY! We are going to fight this thing... and there are always ways to get around these 'realities' that seem to hold things back.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 04:51:51 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51592
I would argue that if we can't protect America's children, what good is health care reform?
 
President Bush suspended Bolivia's GSP status as a lame duck for their failure to cooperate on the "war on drugs" in December 2008 in the midst of the US banking system near collapse. Can we not do the same for our children?
I have to agree with James here. The President of the U.S. (speaking generically here) takes action that is material, specific, but also symbolic. A President, any President, taking action like suspending, or simply threatening to suspend (with teeth) gsp status sends a strong message not to mess with us. Now, do I think that this President is about to do that? Sadly, no. He has disappointed me lately on too many fronts where he should have taken a stand and used his bully pulpit, but did not. I won't get off topic and political, but even as the flaming liberal that I am, I wish there was just a bit of Ronald Reagan in Mr. Obama.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: ramshackle71 on December 17, 2009, 04:52:43 PM
I know this is childish and non-constructive, but it will give me and possibly other furious :madgo: readers, a good, much needed chuckle. Can someone superimpose the grandmas face to the emperor of star wars and post it. The hood and all....that would be great. :D We all know what happens to the emperor in the end. Good Luck David and other LBP's.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 04:53:24 PM
Quote from: ramshackle71;51602
I know this is childish and non-constructive, but it will give me and possibly other furious :madgo: readers, a good, much needed chuckle. Can someone superimpose the grandmas face to the emperor of star wars and post it. The hood and all....that would be great. :D We all know what happens to the emperor in the end. Good Luck David and other LBP's.

How would you tell which part was the emperor and what was Silvana?  She looks like him now anyway.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 04:53:34 PM
Quote from: Grace;51555
The Globo comments are all of outrage with the decision. Brazilians themselves are ashamed of what's going on. The comments give me some hope with the human race. http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/caso-sean-ministro-do-stf-decide-pela-permanencia-do-menino-no-brasil-915253767.asp#coment
I've always known that the Brazilian people have plenty of heart :hug:and compassion. It's a shame that a few rotten corrupt people and their rotten corrupt connection in the judicial system make the entire country
and the rest of the judicial look bad to the rest of the world. Lula needs to wipe that smile off his face and do some damage control. It could affect his retirement days.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Evadc on December 17, 2009, 04:55:14 PM
I guess I might get arrested because I sent the White House a very upset email.Of course I did not make any threats but honestly, I came to this country because of all the importance Human Rights are given here.I have always admired how justice is respected in the US and how people (most of them at least) play by the rules in every corner of the US of A, unlike Brazil but what the Department of State is doing to David and the other LBP's is unforgiven and heartbreaking.
Perhaps I should apply to Canadian Citizenship instead?
My heart hurts and I am still in tears for David and Sean.I just saw a pic of Tostes holding a "letter" Sean wrote Lula stating he wants to stay in Brazil forever.If this is not immoral and a clear example of Parental Alienation,I don't know anything else in this life.

I'm really sad for David and Sean.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Rio Gringa on December 17, 2009, 04:55:52 PM
Forget the American president, this falls directly in Lula's jurisdiction. I know there's been lots of talk about this, but the bottom line is he can and will rule on judicial matters if he so chooses. In fact, even though the Supreme Court ruled to extradite the Italian terrorist Battisti, it is Lula who is going to make the final decision, and the Supreme Court's decision is purely symbolic. The media is saying he will probably rule to keep him in Brazil.
 
If he can do it in that case, he should be able to for this one. But he won't.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: lisacallenwood on December 17, 2009, 04:56:19 PM
I have to comfort myself knowing that although David may have lost this battle, he WILL eventually win the 'war'. We'd all prefer if it were sooner vs later and that is the very sad part of it.
 
I don't know how nonna dark side doesn't walk around worried about getting struck by a lightening bolt. There is a special place for her and she'll be welcomed by some she knows.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: tenorplus on December 17, 2009, 04:56:25 PM
Chopchop - sorry for my hasty response. Just a lot of emotions running today!
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Evadc on December 17, 2009, 04:58:04 PM
Here is the picture of Tostes holding Sean's letter to Lula.

http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/cidades,stf-concede-liminar-para-permanencia-de-sean-no-brasil,483818,0.htm
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 04:58:47 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51596
Sorry, you're quite right. On the other hand, we don't need the negativity at the moment nor the bad outlook opinions of folks who aren't directly involved in litigating the case.

 
Chuckles, I appreciate your ackowlegement.  This is a discussion board where I assume that reasonable people can have reasonable differences and that those people have the freedom to express those reasonable differing opinions freely without fear of censure or ridicule.  
 
I really don't believe that just because this fight is difficult that David or anyone else should give up.  However, I want to be able to have complete and candid discussions-this includes the "negative" aspects of the case.  Let's be real here, corruption and influence are the only reasons this case has ever come to what it is.  If the Brazilian justice system was not corrupt would Bruna, Joao and company ever thought they could get away with kidnapping Sean in the first place?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2009, 04:59:14 PM
Ellen Gracie Northfleet, Please help us
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 05:01:00 PM
Quote from: Rio Gringa;51607
Forget the American president, this falls directly in Lula's jurisdiction. I know there's been lots of talk about this, but the bottom line is he can and will rule on judicial matters if he so chooses. In fact, even though the Supreme Court ruled to extradite the Italian terrorist Battisti, it is Lula who is going to make the final decision, and the Supreme Court's decision is purely symbolic. The media is saying he will probably rule to keep him in Brazil.
 
If he can do it in that case, he should be able to for this one. But he won't.


The bottom line is that the Brazilian Judicial system is full of scumbags.  And if Lula allows it to go on, then he becomes a scumbag.  And if Obama allows Lula to let it go on (the kidnapping and holding of American children), then he becomes a scumbag as well.  This isn't about Sean Goldman, this is about 60 something KIDNAPPED AMERICAN CITIZENS and the violation of an international treaty.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jjsaunt on December 17, 2009, 05:01:27 PM
Why was the HC filed by the grandmother?  If the stepfather is the "legal" guardian, why isn't he doing it.  Has he filed anything since the appeal to the June decision or has it only been the grandmother?  This stay seems so strange.  I can see granting a stay to the guardian, but if the guardian isn't even bothering to apply for the stay - why grant it?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51612
Chuckles, I appreciate your ackowlegement.  This is a discussion board where I assume that reasonable people can have reasonable differences and that those people have the freedom to express those reasonable differing opinions freely without fear of censure or ridicule.  
 
I really don't believe that just because this fight is difficult that David or anyone else should give up.  However, I want to be able to have complete and candid discussions-this includes the "negative" aspects of the case.  Let's be real here, corruption and influence are the only reasons this case has ever come to what it is.  If the Brazilian justice system was not corrupt would Bruna, Joao and company ever thought they could get away with kidnapping Sean in the first place?
That's fine, but let's have that conversation once the dust has settled on everything that has happened today and see what happens tomorrow.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 05:02:51 PM
Quote from: lovellboys;51603
How would you tell which part was the emperor and what was Silvana? She looks like him now anyway.

I see Silvana looking VERY gaunt and pale. I think she will NOT be able to maintain her physical and mental health, you can see she is cracking under the strain. And Lord knows what has happpend to Quadrifoglio's? I understand she is not cooking there anymore. I wonder what happens when business drops off?
Guess she's living off Bruna's Social Security.
O.K. that was mean, but probably true.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 05:04:34 PM
Quote from: tenorplus;51609
Chopchop - sorry for my hasty response. Just a lot of emotions running today!

 
No problema Tenor, I know emotions are running high today and everyone (including myself) are very disappointed by what has happened.  I try not to take things personally.  Sadly, only time will tell how this tragedy will play out-I'm not going to stop supporting David just because things aren't going well.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 05:05:09 PM
David on CNN NOW
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 05:06:55 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51599
James, all I'm trying to express is the unlikelyhood of our government having the political courage to do impose any penalties against Brazil in response to a single child Hague Convention claim. Especially when the very Brazilian judicial body charged with the due process of the case can hide behind the law.
 
I have always supported David and will continue to do so, but I also want to have both feet on the ground.

I actually think realism is a good quality to have. I'd like to think we have room for both here - hopefulness certainly, but also occasional reality checks (and dissenting opinions).
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;51615
Why was the HC filed by the grandmother? If the stepfather is the "legal" guardian, why isn't he doing it. Has he filed anything since the appeal to the June decision or has it only been the grandmother? This stay seems so strange. I can see granting a stay to the guardian, but if the guardian isn't even bothering to apply for the stay - why grant it?

 
Apparently, anyone can file a HC plea for anyone in Brazil, go figure?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 05:12:55 PM
Sorry, my post is somewhat redundant considering the previous posts - hadn't yet seen those.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Evadc on December 17, 2009, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51618
I see Silvana looking VERY gaunt and pale. I think she will NOT be able to maintain her physical and mental health, you can see she is cracking under the strain. And Lord knows what has happpend to Quadrifoglio's? I understand she is not cooking there anymore. I wonder what happens when business drops off?
Guess she's living off Bruna's Social Security.
O.K. that was mean, but probably true.
 Silvana sold Quadrifoglio's right after Bruna kicked the bucket from what I know.They do not own any restaurant anymore.Now, all she does is sitting and planning a new way to kick David in the teeth so she can have the souvenir left from Bruna.
Really, David is much more noble than I am  and I DO NOT feel sorry if  Silvana is gaunt and pale, I do not care id she is getting sick, I want her to feel twice ( at least) the pain David is feeling, I want the entire family to pay for what they are doing to Sean as well as these stupid, immoral and corrupt judges.
I am mad right now and I do not care if you guys are going to censor me for saying that.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jjsaunt on December 17, 2009, 05:14:10 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51623

Quote

Originally Posted by jjsaunt (http://bringseanhome.org/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showthread.php?p=51615#post51615)
Why was the HC filed by the grandmother? If the stepfather is the "legal" guardian, why isn't he doing it. Has he filed anything since the appeal to the June decision or has it only been the grandmother? This stay seems so strange. I can see granting a stay to the guardian, but if the guardian isn't even bothering to apply for the stay - why grant it?

 
 
Apparently, anyone can file a HC plea for anyone in Brazil, go figure?

But WHY isn't JPLS doing it? And WHY would the court grant it for a third party if the parties directly involved aren't bothering to file an HC?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: jjsaunt on December 17, 2009, 05:15:32 PM
Quote from: Chuckles;51621
David on CNN NOW

 
Does he have any hope for a quick resolution?
 
 
Oh, can someone change the title of this thread?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: merapi on December 17, 2009, 05:21:58 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;51630
Does he have any hope for a quick resolution?
 
 

 
Also, any new update on what Chris Smith said about trying to get the whole supreme court to rule tomorrow?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 05:25:11 PM
Channel five in Boston just did an update about todays ruling
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 05:25:22 PM
Quote from: jjsaunt;51628
But WHY isn't JPLS doing it? And WHY would the court grant it for a third party if the parties directly involved aren't bothering to file an HC?

 
Your guess is as good as mine.  Maybe because Sean spends more time with her and she is a blood relative.  Therefore this maternal blood relationship makes the plea on Sean's behalf somewhat more credible?  In the final analysis it's all BS.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Jessica on December 17, 2009, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Evadc;51627
Silvana sold Quadrifoglio's right after Bruna kicked the bucket from what I know.They do not own any restaurant anymore.Now, all she does is sitting and planning a new way to kick David in the teeth so she can have the souvenir left from Bruna.
Really, David is much more noble than I am and I DO NOT feel sorry if Silvana is gaunt and pale, I do not care id she is getting sick, I want her to feel twice ( at least) the pain David is feeling, I want the entire family to pay for what they are doing to Sean as well as these stupid, immoral and corrupt judges.
I am mad right now and I do not care if you guys are going to censor me for saying that.

Take a good look at the pics of David and Sean before Bruna took off and take a look at the current pics of David. In the before pictures he looked healthy and happy and now the man just looks tired. Granny can place the blame for everyone's misery straight at her own doorstep. Screw how she looks!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 05:30:54 PM
I have posted a Reuters based NYT article in the media thread. Marco Aurelio's statement is sickening.
 
"At stake is a life in formation. At stake is the right to come and go, the right to an opinion and expression as well as human dignity," he said in a statement released on the court's website.

He said the Hague Abduction Convention aimed a curbing cases of child abduction by parents recognized the importance of the child's will and the possibility of refusing a return if it went against "fundamental human rights and liberties."
 
At least Reuters cited a countering opinion from an American legal expert.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chicco on December 17, 2009, 05:35:09 PM
Quote from: Grace;51555
The Globo comments are all of outrage with the decision. Brazilians themselves are ashamed of what's going on. The comments give me some hope with the human race. http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/mat/2009/12/17/caso-sean-ministro-do-stf-decide-pela-permanencia-do-menino-no-brasil-915253767.asp#coment

I am heart-broken and embarassed at same time. This minister who was taken to this Supreme Court position not by his CV or well known reputation but by a political indication, has served once again not to fairness or justice, but to friends and to his personal motivations, whatever they are.
 
For twice he had the chance to say NO to a HC and allow Sean to return to his father. Last time he granted a stay objecting a well written ruling just to vote against the merit of the same HC a week later.
 
Now he grants a stay and objects the judgement of THREE OTHER INDEPENDENT JUDGES OF A HIGHER COURT, who after working hard to go to the bottom of the case decided the RULING WAS RIGHT AND SHOULD BE UPHOLD. The difference is that now he also declares his vote on the matter up front.
 
By doing this he also shows he is giving a bird not only to the 4 judges decision but also to the whole psychological world as he is basically saying Parental Allienation does not exist and if exists he does not give a damn...
 
So what is new? A minister thinks he can pretend to understand and know about everything and that his mind is the superior one. He is above us all, nothing happens to him and so he thinks he can play God. Our lower courts were slow but all of them sofar ruled the same and tried to do the right thing. Unfortunatelly one Supreme Court minister is enough to derail our chance to do the right thing.
 
I JUST HOPE WE CAN HAVE A MIRACLE TOMORROW, after all this is Christmas time. If we don´t have a miracle, we are on hold until Carnival, which suits perfectly, after all this a Circus, and Marco Aurelio is the evil clown who was given the right to play all of us as muppets in his show of horrors...
 
My prayers to David, his body and mental health, to his lawyers so GOD bless them with wisdom at this moment, to Sean who will only understand the crime commited against him when he has his first baby in his arm (but will be too late) and to all of you so you do not loose faith.
 
God bless you all on this sad day. I am really sorry for this outcome.
Title: The Judges in Robes & Tutti Frutti Hats
Post by: Atlantic965 on December 17, 2009, 05:38:16 PM
:furious:Bottom line Paulo Lins E Silva is right. A clever lawyer like Joao or Toastes can keep this case going on forever with these endless appeals and stays. I think getting Sean home is never going to happen this way. I think it is time for Ms Clinton to have the CIA station chief in Brasilia find out who is being pressured or bought off and threaten to take that info public unless Sean is returned at once. President Lula wants Brazil respected on the world stage as a world power not a banana republic. He would have to intervene to avoid international humiliation for the Brazilian State.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: elizrpoe on December 17, 2009, 05:39:07 PM
Is it possible for anyone to overule his stay order? Can the supreme court meet tomorrow and decide this is corrupt and allow the return order to  be followed? Does anybody have the power to right this wrong?
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 05:42:07 PM
Quote from: Chicco;51643
I am heart-broken and embarassed at same time. This minister who was taken to this Supreme Court position not by his CV or well known reputation but by a political indication, has served once again not to fairness or justice, but to friends and to his personal motivations, whatever they are.
 
For twice he had the chance to say NO to a HC and allow Sean to return to his father. Last time he granted a stay objecting a well written ruling just to vote against the merit of the same HC a week later.
 
Now he grants a stay and objects the judgement of THREE OTHER INDEPENDENT JUDGES OF A HIGHER COURT, who after working hard to go to the bottom of the case decided the RULING WAS RIGHT AND SHOULD BE UPHOLD. The difference is that now he also declares his vote on the matter up front.
 
By doing this he also shows he is giving a bird not only to the 4 judges decision but also to the whole psychological world as he is basically saying Parental Allienation does not exist and if exists he does not give a damn...
 
So what is new? A minister thinks he can pretend to understand and know about everything and that his mind is the superior one. He is above us all, nothing happens to him and so he thinks he can play God. Our lower courts were slow but all of them sofar ruled the same and tried to do the right thing. Unfortunatelly one Supreme Court minister is enough to derail our chance to do the right thing.
 
I JUST HOPE WE CAN HAVE A MIRACLE TOMORROW, after all this is Christmas time. If we don´t have a miracle, we are on hold until Carnival, which suits perfectly, after all this a Circus, and Marco Aurelio is the evil clown who was given the right to play all of us as muppets in his show of horrors...
 
My prayers to David, his body and mental health, to his lawyers so GOD bless them with wisdom at this moment, to Sean who will only understand the crime commited against him when he has his first baby in his arm (but will be too late) and to all of you so you do not loose faith.
 
God bless you all on this sad day. I am really sorry for this outcome.

Chicco, take faith my friend we here in the US know that you represent the true heart of Brazil-you are a true gentlemen, god bless...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: elizrpoe;51646
Is it possible for anyone to overule his stay order? Can the supreme court meet tomorrow and decide this is corrupt and allow the return order to be followed? Does anybody have the power to right this wrong?

 
Don't think so.  As corrupt as it is Marco Aurelio's injuction is technically legal.  Best person to comment would be Tunevsk...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: BrazaBoy on December 17, 2009, 05:57:23 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51649
Don't think so.  As corrupt as it is Marco Aurelio's injuction is technically legal.  Best person to comment would be Tunevsk...


I disagree, since the Marco Aurelio himself voted, 6 months ago, against the use of this legal instrument to achieve the Brazilian family goal, of forcing the court to hear Sean.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Chicco on December 17, 2009, 05:57:44 PM
Jornal Nacional has just ended a very solid piece on the story. This time the whole piece reflected the real truth on the whole story as never done before, which makes me wonder if this was done because this time the whole world is watching....
 
When it ended the two anchors who are a married couple and know well how to hide emotions, were showing clearly in their human faces they disapprove what happened and me as probably many others here had tears in the eyes... very... very sad...
 
If the link becomes available later I will post to you as done yesterday... Need to go for now...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 06:01:16 PM
Quote from: Chicco;51657
Jornal Nacional has just ended a very solid piece on the story. This time the whole piece reflected the real truth on the whole story as never done before, which makes me wonder if this was done because this time the whole world is watching....
 
When it ended the two anchors who are a married couple and know well how to hide emotions, were showing clearly in their human faces they disapprove what happened and me as probably many others here had tears in the eyes... very... very sad...
 
If the link becomes available later I will post to you as done yesterday... Need to go for now...

Did you see the reporter (a woman) comment that David can do an appeal to the president of STF during the judiciary recess?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 06:02:29 PM
Wow, thanks Chicco, for all your good work and information here.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51659
Wow, thanks Chicco, for all your good work and information here.

 
Ditto...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: jl2saint on December 17, 2009, 06:05:29 PM
Quote from: Chicco;51657
Jornal Nacional has just ended a very solid piece on the story. This time the whole piece reflected the real truth on the whole story as never done before, which makes me wonder if this was done because this time the whole world is watching....
 
When it ended the two anchors who are a married couple and know well how to hide emotions, were showing clearly in their human faces they disapprove what happened and me as probably many others here had tears in the eyes... very... very sad...
 
If the link becomes available later I will post to you as done yesterday... Need to go for now...

Please do Chicco.....What an unbelievable day...Corruption apparently knows no boundaries in Brazil....

Sad.........
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: LCarpenter on December 17, 2009, 06:10:47 PM
Tostes will file a new appeal with the STJ tomorrow in order to revert the lower court's decision :burn:

Case Sean: Family will go to court to ensure the boy's permanent residency in Brazil

http://zerohora.clicrbs.com.br/zerohora/jsp/default.jsp?uf=1&local=1§ion=Geral&newsID=a2752080.xml
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: kim in socal on December 17, 2009, 06:11:44 PM
Earlier today, there was a post from the Supreme Court about a new Hague legal procedures and claims of already solved cases. It was about the same time that the s*it hit the fan. We need to pull this info. I think they claimed that Hague cases were being resolved and had a # of cases resolved. We know this is not true and was probably only issued to appear like a normal, civilized legal system embracing the Hague. I am interested in finding out about these resolved cases (if they exist or not).
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 06:12:13 PM
This Jornal Nacional story Chicco gives me hope. Let's post a link to it as soon as it is up. By Brazilians becoming really outraged things might get better for us. I am sure David is having lot's of sympathy down there today.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 06:18:49 PM
:mad2:It doesn't matter whether or not we can show they are lying. THEY'VE BEEN LYING FROM DAY ONE THE WORLD KNOWS IT, and Lula doesn't care. That is why he Appointed Mello to that position in the first place. To be his DO boy and take the heat for being a bag of S**T, so it doesn't appear that Lula has his hand in it, which everyone KNOWS he does. He's making sure he takes care of the family of hisclose, bussom, dead, friend Evandor Lins e Silva and the corrupt Lins e Silva Family, who are related to the Bianchi Riebiero's,maybe too related. There are Riebiero who work for Lins e Silva law firm.:madgo:
 
Addendum: even if they "show" progress on cases, even make a favorable outcome....their trick is to never send the children home anyway.....unless they sacrifice one......oh, how about the body of poor Sophie Zanger. They finally sent her home after hanging on to her body for months.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 06:21:07 PM
Quote from: LCarpenter;51665
Tostes will file a new appeal with the STJ tomorrow in order to revert the lower court's decision :burn:
 
Case Sean: Family will go to court to ensure the boy's permanent residency in Brazil

http://zerohora.clicrbs.com.br/zerohora/jsp/default.jsp?uf=1&local=1§ion=Geral&newsID=a2752080.xml

 
C, thanks for posting this, the google translation turned out pretty good.  I like the part where Tostes claims that "justice is fallible", and thats why the injunction should stand and Sean should stay.  Playing with a childs life, what a creep...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 06:21:27 PM
As I said before, if the SOS and Obama do not demand Sean returned home tomorrow.......     I am so mad right now.  Mad, very, very, very MAD!!!  :burn::madgo::mad2:   It is simply beyound me how this can be tolerated on any level!!!!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Herb Wife on December 17, 2009, 06:21:44 PM
email CNN  here...just sent mine! hurry Davids story will be updated again few min! http://www.cnn.com/feedback/confirmation/generic.html (http://www.cnn.com/feedback/confirmation/generic.html)
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: BrazaBoy on December 17, 2009, 06:23:51 PM
Jornal Nacional Story
http://video.globo.com/Videos/Player/Noticias/0,,GIM1178001-7823-STF+IMPEDE+MENINO+SEAN+DE+DEIXAR+O+PAIS,00.html
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 06:25:36 PM
Quote from: mikeberry;51673
As I said before, if the SOS and Obama do not demand Sean returned home tomorrow....... I am so mad right now. Mad, very, very, very MAD!!! :burn::madgo::mad2:   It is simply beyound me how this can be tolerated on any level!!!!

 
Mike, you need to retract this imediately.  Our president is not responsible for the judiciary system of Brazil, or the status of this case, end of story.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 06:27:48 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51678
Mike, you need to retract this imediately.  Our president is not responsible for the judiciary system of Brazil, or the status of this case, end of story.

Though I would word it differently, Obama has done nothing to help the situation, which is only slightly less than SOS Clinton has done.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: malalves on December 17, 2009, 06:29:37 PM
It is a shame. To all of you that do not know Brazil, this may show how life is hard down here if you are not well connected with the powers that be. To the likes of Lins e Silva it doesn´t matter the court decision, the international treaties, his will must prevail no matter what. They do not follow the rules, they bend the rules. It is apalling and absurd. I am really mad with this thing and ashamed.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 06:31:01 PM
Quote from: Sashia;51670
:mad2:It doesn't matter whether or not we can show they are lying. THEY'VE BEEN LYING FROM DAY ONE THE WORLD KNOWS IT, and Lula doesn't care. That is why he Appointed Mello to that position in the first place. To be his DO boy and take the heat for being a bag of S**T, so it doesn't appear that Lula has his hand in it, which everyone KNOWS he does. He's making sure he takes care of the family of hisclose, bussom, dead, friend Evandor Lins e Silva and the corrupt Lins e Silva Family, who are related to the Bianchi Riebiero's,maybe too related. There are Riebiero who work for Lins e Silva law firm.:madgo:
 
Addendum: even if they "show" progress on cases, even make a favorable outcome....their trick is to never send the children home anyway.....unless they sacrifice one......oh, how about the body of poor Sophie Zanger. They finally sent her home after hanging on to her body for months.

 
I may be wrong about this, but I don't think Mello is one of the judges appointed by Lula - perhaps one of the Brazilians here can confirm (or negate) it. I got the impression from an article I had read previously that they have a somewhat contentious relationship.
 
(I'm not sure there is much point me signing out - I keep refreshing the page!).
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Wendy on December 17, 2009, 06:37:05 PM
Quote from: malalves;51682
It is a shame. To all of you that do not know Brazil, this may show how life is hard down here if you are not well connected with the powers that be. To the likes of Lins e Silva it doesn´t matter the court decision, the international treaties, his will must prevail no matter what. They do not follow the rules, they bend the rules. It is apalling and absurd. I am really mad with this thing and ashamed.

See...I just can't fathom this.  As a nation Brazil looks like a bunch of spoiled rotten buffoons thumbing their noses at the school big kid behind the safety of a chain link fence.  Were I from Brazil or living there, I would be utterly humiliated by the shame that this man has put upon my country and it's people! There is NOTHING more important or sacred than the sanctity of family...of a parents RIGHT to raise their children and love them and for their children to be able to love and be raised by their parents...especially when they are fit and able as David has shown himself to be.  
 
If this inaliable right is taken from parents and children then we, as human beings, are nothing more than animals who fail to even follow the laws of nature!  I'm shocked, astouned, and apalled that one man can sow this much humiliation on a country and the masses have not stood up to scream for his immediate dismisal from the bench!!  The people of Brazil need to rise up and demand that Marcus be FIRED from his job for making a mockery of their country!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: dsturnerjr;51680
Though I would word it differently, Obama has done nothing to help the situation, which is only slightly less than SOS Clinton has done.

 
I respectfully disagree on this point. We live by the rule of law and must allow other nations to do the same. The SOS (the Presidents liason to the world) came out immediately and praised the Brazilian courts decision to send Sean back to David Friday. What do you want them to do that hasn't been done so far? Be specific, because as I see it they cannot interject themselves into the legal process of soverign nations, right?
 
I'm not to happy with President Obama right now but he doesn't deserve to be blamed for all the worlds wrongs...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: malalves on December 17, 2009, 06:39:00 PM
Quote from: Lexi;51684
I may be wrong about this, but I don't think Mello is one of the judges appointed by Lula - perhaps one of the Brazilians here can confirm (or negate) it. I got the impression from an article I had read previously that they have a somewhat contentious relationship.
 
(I'm not sure there is much point me signing out - I keep refreshing the page!).

Mello was not nominated by Lula. But that is irrelevant to the case. Lula will only care about this situation if he is subjected to pressure by the USA. He can´t issue orders to the judges but political influence can be used.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: kmoor88 on December 17, 2009, 06:39:40 PM
Thank you Wendy well said, missed your fire!!!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 06:40:04 PM
Quote from: Lexi;51684

(I'm not sure there is much point me signing out - I keep refreshing the page!).
Constantly. Or thread hopping. :burn:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 06:42:50 PM
Quote from: Herb Wife;51674
email CNN here...just sent mine! hurry Davids story will be updated again few min! http://www.cnn.com/feedback/confirmation/generic.html (http://www.cnn.com/feedback/confirmation/generic.html)
Why is there no where to place a comment under the story.
most of the other stories have hundreds of comments.
Under the video is says comments 0
There is no comment window or button to click on this story specifically, only a contact us page at the address above.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/17/goldman.brazil.custody/index.html
here's the story page with the video. I ca't bring myself to watch it.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lindy_b on December 17, 2009, 06:45:32 PM
I haven't been able to get online today and my daughter just told me to check CNN...this is incredible!  I can't really say I'm suprised, but it's just so disappointing and I can't even imagine how David must feel, after all this time.  I'm so sorry for him and I'm sorry for Sean, even though he may not know what he's missing.  The last year and a half (that I have known about this) has seemed like such a long time and the situation has never been far from my thoughts.  My heart goes out to David for the rollercoaster he is on.:frown:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 06:47:27 PM
Quote from: malalves;51689
Mello was not nominated by Lula. But that is irrelevant to the case. Lula will only care about this situation if he is subjected to pressure by the USA. He can´t issue orders to the judges but political influence can be used.

Ok thanks and yes, we have discussed the separation of powers etc. many times. You're new here though, so welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 06:47:39 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51688
I respectfully disagree on this point. We live by the rule of law and must allow other nations to do the same. The SOS (the Presidents liason to the world) came out immediately and praised the Brazilian courts decision to send Sean back to David Friday. What do you want them to do that hasn't been done so far? Be specific, because as I see it they cannot interject themselves into the legal process of soverign nations, right?
But... and this is what I am stuck on......yes, we agree in sovereign nations own laws. But this case (and others regarding Hague Convention) is not just about sovereign law, it is about INTERNATIONAL law, agreed to by both nations, and that is NOT to be argued endlessly in the court of the abductor's nation. That is CENTRAL to the Hague Convention. That this case is NOT (or not supposed to be) a BRAZILLIAN CUSTODY case. Long long ago it should not have been that. So, there is an international treaty, agreement, convention in play, and that is where the Chief Executive of each nation DOES have a responsibility to enforce!!!! If he were to TRULY follow this convention and "follow the rule of law", once this case was determined to be a Hague case, President Lula could have used his central authority to send Sean home. And President Obama should recognize his key role in insisting that his counterpart do so. That, specifically is what should be done!!! Allowing this sovereign court crap to continue simply IGNORES an international treaty, might as well flush it down the toilet. SIX WEEKS from the determination that Sean was in Brazil in violation of the Hague is when BRAZIL had an OBLIGATION to send him home. SIX WEEKS!!!!  That, specifically is the job of the Central Authority!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: malalves on December 17, 2009, 06:48:24 PM
Quote from: Wendy;51686
See...I just can't fathom this. As a nation Brazil looks like a bunch of spoiled rotten buffoons thumbing their noses at the school big kid behind the safety of a chain link fence. Were I from Brazil or living there, I would be utterly humiliated by the shame that this man has put upon my country and it's people! There is NOTHING more important or sacred than the sanctity of family...of a parents RIGHT to raise their children and love them and for their children to be able to love and be raised by their parents...especially when they are fit and able as David has shown himself to be.
 
If this inaliable right is taken from parents and children then we, as human beings, are nothing more than animals who fail to even follow the laws of nature! I'm shocked, astouned, and apalled that one man can sow this much humiliation on a country and the masses have not stood up to scream for his immediate dismisal from the bench!! The people of Brazil need to rise up and demand that Marcus be FIRED from his job for making a mockery of their country!

I agree with you. However, it is not just one judge at the supreme court but it is the way things work with Brazil´s "justice". Anything that goes to court may take years to be sorted-out and every kind of appeal is possible - Only some lawyers are happy with this.
David Goldman needs every help from the US government to have his son back. Political pressure can work and never forget that Sean Goldman is an american citzen too. This is a case of international law. Brazil signed an international treaty and is violating it. The US government can take this case to the international courts and end this thing.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bree on December 17, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
Quote from: Lexi;51684
I may be wrong about this, but I don't think Mello is one of the judges appointed by Lula - perhaps one of the Brazilians here can confirm (or negate) it. I got the impression from an article I had read previously that they have a somewhat contentious relationship.
 
(I'm not sure there is much point me signing out - I keep refreshing the page!).

From Wiki:
 
President Gilmar Mendes (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Gilmar_Mendes) (2002 by Fernando Henrique Cardoso (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Fernando_Henrique_Cardoso)) (Compulsory retirement in 2025)
Vice-President Cezar Peluso (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Cezar_Peluso&action=edit&redlink=1) (2003 by Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2012)
Celso de Mello (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Celso_de_Mello&action=edit&redlink=1) (1989 by José Sarney (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Sarney)) (Compulsory retirement in 2015)
Marco Aurélio (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Aur%C3%A9lio_Mendes_de_Farias_Mello&action=edit&redlink=1) (1990 by Fernando Collor (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Fernando_Collor)) (Compulsory retirement in 2016)
Ellen Gracie (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Ellen_Gracie) (2000 by Fernando Henrique Cardoso) (Compulsory retirement in 2018)
Carlos Britto (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Carlos_Britto&action=edit&redlink=1) (2003 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2012)
Joaquim Barbosa (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Joaquim_Benedito_Barbosa_Gomes) (2003 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2024)
Eros Grau (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Eros_Grau&action=edit&redlink=1) (2004 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2010)
Ricardo Lewandowski (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Ricardo_Lewandowski&action=edit&redlink=1) (2006 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2018)
Carmen Lúcia Antunes Rocha (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Carmen_L%C3%BAcia_Antunes_Rocha&action=edit&redlink=1) (2006 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2024)
José Antônio Dias Toffoli (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Jos%C3%A9_Ant%C3%B4nio_Dias_Toffoli&action=edit&redlink=1) (2009 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2038).
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 06:50:05 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51691
Constantly. Or thread hopping. :burn:

Yup - I think many of us are still shellshocked, again, but we will regroup.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 06:51:49 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51688
I respectfully disagree on this point.  We live by the rule of law and must allow other nations to do the same.  The SOS (the Presidents liason to the world) came out immediately and praised the Brazilian courts decision to send Sean back to David Friday.  What do you want them to do that hasn't been done so far?  Be specific, because as I see it they cannot interject themselves into the legal process of soverign nations, right?  
 
I'm not to happy with President Obama right now but he doesn't deserved to be blamed for all the worlds wrongs...


I don't think anyone is "blaming" obama, but he clearly has diplomatic tools at his disposal to use to reprimand brazil for its failure to abide by the terms of an international treaty that they have received reciprocal benefits from. He should use them. Immediately.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 06:51:59 PM
Quote from: Bree;51698
From Wiki:
 
President Gilmar Mendes (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Gilmar_Mendes) (2002 by Fernando Henrique Cardoso (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Fernando_Henrique_Cardoso)) (Compulsory retirement in 2025)
Vice-President Cezar Peluso (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Cezar_Peluso&action=edit&redlink=1) (2003 by Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2012)
Celso de Mello (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Celso_de_Mello&action=edit&redlink=1) (1989 by José Sarney (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Sarney)) (Compulsory retirement in 2015)
Marco Aurélio (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Aur%C3%A9lio_Mendes_de_Farias_Mello&action=edit&redlink=1) (1990 by Fernando Collor (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Fernando_Collor)) (Compulsory retirement in 2016)
Ellen Gracie (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Ellen_Gracie) (2000 by Fernando Henrique Cardoso) (Compulsory retirement in 2018)
Carlos Britto (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Carlos_Britto&action=edit&redlink=1) (2003 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2012)
Joaquim Barbosa (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Joaquim_Benedito_Barbosa_Gomes) (2003 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2024)
Eros Grau (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Eros_Grau&action=edit&redlink=1) (2004 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2010)
Ricardo Lewandowski (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Ricardo_Lewandowski&action=edit&redlink=1) (2006 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2018)
Carmen Lúcia Antunes Rocha (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Carmen_L%C3%BAcia_Antunes_Rocha&action=edit&redlink=1) (2006 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2024)
José Antônio Dias Toffoli (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Jos%C3%A9_Ant%C3%B4nio_Dias_Toffoli&action=edit&redlink=1) (2009 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2038).

 
Thanks Bree - that's perfect.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Sashia on December 17, 2009, 06:58:51 PM
Quote from: Bree;51698
From Wiki:
 
President Gilmar Mendes (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Gilmar_Mendes) (2002 by Fernando Henrique Cardoso (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Fernando_Henrique_Cardoso)) (Compulsory retirement in 2025)
Vice-President Cezar Peluso (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Cezar_Peluso&action=edit&redlink=1) (2003 by Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2012)
Celso de Mello (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Celso_de_Mello&action=edit&redlink=1) (1989 by José Sarney (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Sarney)) (Compulsory retirement in 2015)
Marco Aurélio (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Aur%C3%A9lio_Mendes_de_Farias_Mello&action=edit&redlink=1) (1990 by Fernando Collor (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Fernando_Collor)) (Compulsory retirement in 2016)
Ellen Gracie (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Ellen_Gracie) (2000 by Fernando Henrique Cardoso) (Compulsory retirement in 2018)
Carlos Britto (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Carlos_Britto&action=edit&redlink=1) (2003 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2012)
Joaquim Barbosa (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Joaquim_Benedito_Barbosa_Gomes) (2003 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2024)
Eros Grau (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Eros_Grau&action=edit&redlink=1) (2004 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2010)
Ricardo Lewandowski (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Ricardo_Lewandowski&action=edit&redlink=1) (2006 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2018)
Carmen Lúcia Antunes Rocha (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Carmen_L%C3%BAcia_Antunes_Rocha&action=edit&redlink=1) (2006 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2024)
José Antônio Dias Toffoli (http://www.bringseanhome.org/w/index.php?title=Jos%C3%A9_Ant%C3%B4nio_Dias_Toffoli&action=edit&redlink=1) (2009 by Lula (http://www.bringseanhome.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva)) (Compulsory retirement in 2038).
OHHHHH, YEAHHHH Sarny, I remember him.
So does the Times. http://bit.ly/kBkML
 
Just incase anyone wonders what "womb" Mello came from:
From The Times

August 17, 2009
 
 
Red nose revolt aims to oust 'corrupt' Senate head José Sarney
 

On one side is José Sarney, the ageing president of the Senate and former President of Brazil, who is mired in corruption allegations and clinging on to power. On the other is a rapidly growing campaign to oust him run by young, educated Brazilians using the internet to mobilise support.
Critics say that Mr Sarney is a symbol of an outdated, corrupt and autocratic system that modern Brazilians are trying to leave behind.
On Saturday, thousands of Brazilians demonstrated against Mr Sarney in co-ordinated protests in 13 cities across the country. In São Paulo, 1,000 demonstrators wore red noses and stopped traffic. “It is shameful what is happening in Brazil,” said Marcelo Pizani, a motoring journalist and São Paulo organiser of the Fora Sarney — “Sarney Out” — campaign. “This revolt is coming from the people.”
The protesters are increasingly using irony as a weapon. Another arm of the campaign is Rir Para Não Chorar (Laugh Not To Cry).

 
“The clown’s nose is a legitimate symbol of society’s defence and integrity,” said Fernanda Suplicy, an organiser who claims that 50,000 red noses have been distributed on São Paulo’s streets.
The conservative Estado de São Paulo newspaper has led the allegations against Mr Sarney. The senator’s critics say he is a living example of late 19th-century Brazil’s system of coronelismo (literally, “colonelism”), when power was concentrated in the hands of landowners, or coronels, who ran everything. Estado has alleged that up to 500,000 reals (£163,000) of the R1.3 million that a foundation bearing Mr Sarney’s name received from the state oil giant Petrobras was diverted to front companies and Mr Sarney’s family. His son Fernando is being investigated for alleged financial crimes including money laundering. New claims emerge every week and Mr Sarney denies them all. “It is a campaign by the Estado de São Paulo, which has a political position against mine, which is to support President Lula [da Silva],” he said. Another allegation concerns 663 secret decisions or “secret Acts” that the Brazilian Senate passed between 1995 and this year, up to 10 per cent of which Estado says benefited Mr Sarney’s family or allies.
Mr Sarney says that until June, he did not know the “secret Acts” existed. He defended himself in an impassioned and lengthy speech to the Senate on August 5. He denied knowing Rodrigo Cruz, the beneficiary of a Senate job. Newspapers then published pictures of Mr Sarney at Mr Cruz’s wedding, next to the happy couple.
President Lula da Silva continues to support Mr Sarney because the senator’s party, the PMDB, or Democratic Movement Party, is the key to his plans to have Dilma Roussef, his designated successor, elected in presidential elections next year.
The Senate ethics commission has decided to do nothing about many of the allegations against Mr Sarney. But campaigners plan to demonstrate every Saturday until he leaves office. Mr Pizani said: “Change will only happen when this old class dies.”
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: greg4sean on December 17, 2009, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51688
I respectfully disagree on this point. We live by the rule of law and must allow other nations to do the same. The SOS (the Presidents liason to the world) came out immediately and praised the Brazilian courts decision to send Sean back to David Friday. What do you want them to do that hasn't been done so far? Be specific, because as I see it they cannot interject themselves into the legal process of soverign nations, right?
 
I'm not to happy with President Obama right now but he doesn't deserved to be blamed for all the worlds wrongs...

No his is not responsible for all of the Worlds wrongs.
 
He is responsible for how the State Department handles Hague cases on his watch and the sorry lack of support they give Left Behind Parents just look at some of their postings on BSH to see how they are treated. Listen to the testimony from December 2nd.
 
He is responsible for not speaking out in support of HR 3240.
 
He is responsible for not being more forceful with Lula and not hug him and play nice. Lula and the legislative branch of Brazil can change the laws and the system.
 
He is responsible for not fighting against sending money to any nation who is not compliant with the Hague on his watch.
 
He is responsible for not taking Presidential action that he can do. As mentioned before Bush suspended the GSP for a nation for not helping with the drug war so why can he not do this? There is much he can do without HR 3240 and he has not. He has taken more action than Bush did but it is not enough.
 
He can send SOS down to Brazil today.
 
He can send Vice-President Biden down today.
 
Chris Smith is in Brazil to support David and as for Clinton’s statement today…..come on it was all political and did not mention the other LBP.
 
Yes I want more. I want them all home and Obama should be pushing Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and the other nations and is not. He should be pushing Congress and he is not.
 
He is supposed to defend all of the citizens of the United States of America and he is not defending the over 2,800 of them.
Sean will be home one day of that I have no fear. The question is how many others will be home.
 
We have to push for H.R. 3240.
We have to push President Obama and SOS Clinton.
We must have “Maximum Force” and hold every single member of congress and the President accountable for what they do or not do.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: whartn on December 17, 2009, 07:03:35 PM
SOS Reno took Elian from the whackos housing him in Miami.She acted on behalf of the US Central Authority.Why can`t Lula do the same with Sean?
If after tomorrows court ,Sean is still in Brazil,then Lula should do the same.He can`t hide behind separation of powers.Obama should start using his balls instead of just his mouth.Lula is an opportunist and will not move unless we turn up the heat.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: margie on December 17, 2009, 07:12:19 PM
I just got home. Brazil is by far the most reckless, shameful, corrupt non government country and inflicts the most horrific kind of abuse on children and their left behind parent! Brazil's reputation is now totally in the sewer and I imagine that is where it will stay.

What is the story now? I thought that the judges who ruled in favor of Sean's return tomorrow could still release Sean tomorrow while studying their stupid ignorant appeals? What happened with that?

Has David left Brazil?? And what do we do next? Why hasn't the State Department issued a statement?

Margie
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51696
Quote from: chopchop;51688
I respectfully disagree on this point. We live by the rule of law and must allow other nations to do the same. The SOS (the Presidents liason to the world) came out immediately and praised the Brazilian courts decision to send Sean back to David Friday. What do you want them to do that hasn't been done so far? Be specific, because as I see it they cannot interject themselves into the legal process of soverign nations, right?
Quote
But... and this is what I am stuck on......yes, we agree in sovereign nations own laws. But this case (and others regarding Hague Convention) is not just about sovereign law, it is about INTERNATIONAL law, agreed to by both nations, and that is NOT to be argued endlessly in the court of the abductor's nation. That is CENTRAL to the Hague Convention. That this case is NOT (or not supposed to be) a BRAZILLIAN CUSTODY case. Long long ago it should not have been that. So, there is an international treaty, agreement, convention in play, and that is where the Chief Executive of each nation DOES have a responsibility to enforce!!!! If he were to TRULY follow this convention and "follow the rule of law", once this case was determined to be a Hague case, President Lula could have used his central authority to send Sean home. And President Obama should recognize his key role in insisting that his counterpart do so. That, specifically is what should be done!!! Allowing this sovereign court crap to continue simply IGNORES an international treaty, might as well flush it down the toilet. SIX WEEKS from the determination that Sean was in Brazil in violation of the Hague is when BRAZIL had an OBLIGATION to send him home. SIX WEEKS!!!! That, specifically is the job of the Central Authority!

 
Caldwell you are singing to the choir.  The only thing I can offer is the fact that any case could be won if you have the court on your payroll.  This case is all about Brazilian judicial corruption and our cause is on the downhill side.  Does anyone on this board really think that David's plea would be as sucessful as it is today without the help of NBC news?  Please, the SOS would not have gotten involved if the media had not made everyone aware of what was going on in the Brazilian courts.  It's CORRUPTION, plain and simple...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bree on December 17, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
Quote from: margie;51708
I just got home. Brazil is by far the most reckless, shameful, corrupt non government country and inflicts the most horrific kind of abuse on children and their left behind parent! Brazil's reputation is now totally in the sewer and I imagine that is where it will stay.
 
What is the story now? I thought that the judges who ruled in favor of Sean's return tomorrow could still release Sean tomorrow while studying their stupid ignorant appeals? What happened with that?
 
Has David left Brazil?? And what do we do next? Why hasn't the State Department issued a statement?
 
Margie

The same moronic minister (Marco Aurelio) that stayed the June order, has stayed this order.  :mad2:  Nonna filed a HC and he accepted it and issued a stay based on her submittal.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: greg4sean;51703
No his is not responsible for all of the Worlds wrongs.
 
He is responsible for how the State Department handles Hague cases on his watch and the sorry lack of support they give Left Behind Parents just look at some of their postings on BSH to see how they are treated. Listen to the testimony from December 2nd.
 
He is responsible for not speaking out in support of HR 3240.
 
He is responsible for not being more forceful with Lula and not hug him and play nice. Lula and the legislative branch of Brazil can change the laws and the system.
 
He is responsible for not fighting against sending money to any nation who is not compliant with the Hague on his watch.
 
He is responsible for not taking Presidential action that he can do. As mentioned before Bush suspended the GSP for a nation for not helping with the drug war so why can he not do this? There is much he can do without HR 3240 and he has not. He has taken more action than Bush did but it is not enough.
 
He can send SOS down to Brazil today.
 
He can send Vice-President Biden down today.
 
Chris Smith is in Brazil to support David and as for Clinton’s statement today…..come on it was all political and did not mention the other LBP.
 
Yes I want more. I want them all home and Obama should be pushing Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and the other nations and is not. He should be pushing Congress and he is not.
 
He is supposed to defend all of the citizens of the United States of America and he is not defending the over 2,800 of them.
Sean will be home one day of that I have no fear. The question is how many others will be home.
 
We have to push for H.R. 3240.
We have to push President Obama and SOS Clinton.
We must have “Maximum Force” and hold every single member of congress and the President accountable for what they do or not do.

 
I don't think you are being realistic here. Consider all the issues that President Obama has to deal with simultanously, heathcare, economics, terrorism etc. Furthermore, if Obama were to interject himself into this case: Fox news, Limbuagh and all the other right wingnut jobs would have a political feast with his remains. As the leader of the free world he has to stand by and let other nations follow the rule of law, even if that nation has a system rife with corruption.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: dsturnerjr on December 17, 2009, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: greg4sean;51703
No his is not responsible for all of the Worlds wrongs.
 
He is responsible for how the State Department handles Hague cases on his watch and the sorry lack of support they give Left Behind Parents just look at some of their postings on BSH to see how they are treated. Listen to the testimony from December 2nd.
 
He is responsible for not speaking out in support of HR 3240.
 
He is responsible for not being more forceful with Lula and not hug him and play nice. Lula and the legislative branch of Brazil can change the laws and the system.
 
He is responsible for not fighting against sending money to any nation who is not compliant with the Hague on his watch.
 
He is responsible for not taking Presidential action that he can do. As mentioned before Bush suspended the GSP for a nation for not helping with the drug war so why can he not do this? There is much he can do without HR 3240 and he has not. He has taken more action than Bush did but it is not enough.
 
He can send SOS down to Brazil today.
 
He can send Vice-President Biden down today.
 
Chris Smith is in Brazil to support David and as for Clinton’s statement today…..come on it was all political and did not mention the other LBP.
 
Yes I want more. I want them all home and Obama should be pushing Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and the other nations and is not. He should be pushing Congress and he is not.
 
He is supposed to defend all of the citizens of the United States of America and he is not defending the over 2,800 of them.
Sean will be home one day of that I have no fear. The question is how many others will be home.
 
We have to push for H.R. 3240.
We have to push President Obama and SOS Clinton.
We must have “Maximum Force” and hold every single member of congress and the President accountable for what they do or not do.

Maybe if we had this all put on a teleprompter and Obama could read it like a speech, it would sink in.  He excels in that regard.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 07:33:01 PM
You are completely missing the point.  This is not about the sovereignity of Brazilian's justice system.  This is about Brazil's wilful and purposeful continued violation of an international treaty that was approved by their legislature and signed into law by their executive branch--- a treaty that Brazil has benefitted from without providing any reciprocity.  Brazil is a haven for child kidnappers, and its judicial branch are aiders and abetters.
 
If a President will not attempt to have the rule of law enforced to protect its most vulnerable of citizens, than what use is he?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: sue on December 17, 2009, 07:33:09 PM
Quote from: whartn;51705
SOS Reno took Elian from the whackos housing him in Miami.She acted on behalf of the US Central Authority.Why can`t Lula do the same with Sean?
If after tomorrows court ,Sean is still in Brazil,then Lula should do the same.He can`t hide behind separation of powers.Obama should start using his balls instead of just his mouth.Lula is an opportunist and will not move unless we turn up the heat.
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 17, 2009, 07:42:31 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51710

Does anyone on this board really think that David's plea would be as sucessful as it is today without the help of NBC news? Please, the SOS would not have gotten involved if the media had not made everyone aware of what was going on in the Brazilian courts. It's CORRUPTION, plain and simple...

Just a quick point for now - I'm whipped like everyone else here. While I appreciate the media coverage and do think it's made a positive difference, they have not outed or focused on the questionable rulings etc. Thus far, it's generally really been more about regurgitating the facts and developments and that is something I think we need to address going forward. It will actually be easier now than it would have been before, since many of them are familiar with the basic facts of the case and hopefully will be looking for new angles to cover. Well, if they're not, we need to drive it. Ok, that wasn't so quick after all.
 
That's it for me today. My thoughts and prayers are with David and his family - I am really saddened for his parents as well. And as always, Sean. Night all.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 07:49:41 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51718
You are completely missing the point. This is not about the sovereignity of Brazilian's justice system. This is about Brazil's wilful and purposeful continued violation of an international treaty that was approved by their legislature and signed into law by their executive branch--- a treaty that Brazil has benefitted from without providing any reciprocity. Brazil is a haven for child kidnappers, and its judicial branch are aiders and abetters.
 
If a President will not attempt to have the rule of law enforced to protect its most vulnerable of citizens, than what use is he?

James,
 
I agree that additional international pressure must be put on Brazil, but I don't think our president should interject himself into a Hague case.  I also agree that the SOS should step in and demand action, but to think that the President should directly step in is a bit much.  Let me put it this way, the reason Brazil looks so ridiculous is because a jurist that represents the highest court of Brazil has interjected himself into the case personally.  Can you say, "kangaroo court"?  Imagine if the Supreme Court Justices of America were getting themselves involved in custody cases here, our legal system would be the laughing stock of the civilized world.  As sad and unfair as it is, this is what David has to deal with and I will support him all the way.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: lovellboys on December 17, 2009, 08:00:56 PM
If this is mentioned elsewhere, my apologies......but I heard that Tostes was waving a letter supposedly written by Sean addressed to Lula that states he wished to stay in Brazil.  

A child is not capable of making rational decision about where he should live if he has been forcibly kept from a loving parent who has never stopped fighting for him.  Have him spend time with David and see how he feels in a month.  Silvana is TERRIFIED of that.  She knows that for the 1st four years of Sean's life, that David was his primary care giver - and Sean REMEMBERS!!  She will not even allow a short visit unsupervised.  She knows what will happen and she is scared of that!!!!  

The is a Hague case - pure and simple, and it's up to the executive branch to carry out a transfer when the judiciary fails in its responsibilities.  Silvana is rejoicing - why?   Sean did not win.  Sean lost - again - the chance to be raised by his sole surviving parent.  

Shame on Aurelio for not having the balls to go against an old, vindictive, bitter woman.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 08:04:01 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51718
You are completely missing the point. This is not about the sovereignity of Brazilian's justice system. This is about Brazil's wilful and purposeful continued violation of an international treaty that was approved by their legislature and signed into law by their executive branch--- a treaty that Brazil has benefitted from without providing any reciprocity. Brazil is a haven for child kidnappers, and its judicial branch are aiders and abetters.
 
If a President will not attempt to have the rule of law enforced to protect its most vulnerable of citizens, than what use is he?

 
James I agree with you.  I guess a place to start could be the denying the return of Brazilian children :nixweiss:.  Doesn't seem like a good place to start improving relations.  Unfortunately, we are dealing with a legal system that can be bought and paid for by the elite of Brazil.  At least in the US the little guy stands a fighting chance in court.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 08:07:43 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51724
James,
 
I agree that additional international pressure must be put on Brazil, but I don't think our president should interject himself into a Hague case. I also agree that the SOS should step in and demand action, but to think that the President should directly step in is a bit much. Let me put it this way, the reason Brazil looks so ridiculous is because a jurist that represents the highest court of Brazil has interjected himself into the case personally. Can you say, "kangaroo court"? Imagine if the Supreme Court Justices of America were getting themselves involved in custody cases here, our legal system would be the laughing stock of the civilized world. As sad and unfair as it is, this is what David has to deal with and I will support him all the way.

Then who is supposed to step in? David should NOT have to deal with it if Brazil was following their OWN laws! I did not realize that proven kidnappers and child abusers were allowed to freely roam the Brazillian Court halls! I did not realize that in Brazil, a kidnapper and child abuser has more rights than the loving natural father! AND THIS IS NOT A CUSTODY CASE, IT IS KIDNAPPING AND ABUSE OF A CHILD!!!!! IT IS NOT OK, EVER AND NO ONE SHOULD "HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT"!! The reason Brazil looks ridiculous is because they will not return a kidnapped, abused child to his natural father or follow the Treaty they FREELY signed!! Oh, and let's not forget that it is now blatently obvious to the world how corrupt Brazil is!! God, this case is so black and white a two year old could rule correctly on it in a day!! This is so sick and twisted I can't beleive it is reality!!   I am not yelling at you ChopChop, just venting!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: greg4sean on December 17, 2009, 08:07:53 PM
No president runs the government by themselves. Obama and all presidents have a team and he and his team can do more to help the Left Behind Parents.
 
Treaties are signed by nations and when they are not followed consequences can and should follow. A president has a bully pulpit he can use. If he would just come out in support of H.R. 3240 that alone would send a message to Lula and all nations but he is not.
 
Part of the Hague is for each nations to put in place procedures and laws to assure compliance and Brazil has not. Our president should be saying enough is enough.
 
His job is to defend American Citizens and right now over 2,800 have been abducted.
 
If a friend does not follow a treaty with us how can we enter into new agreements with them? We should not be. If you read the Declaration of Independence you will find this:
 
“He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas…”
 
Our founding fathers took issue with that so why would he and congress not be putting forth more effort to stop the Abduction of our fellow American Citizen Children. It is time to say enough is enough, fix this first or no more. Fix this first or no more money. Fix this first or no favored GSP status.
 
It is past time for quiet diplomacy and time for action. Brazil is a sovereign land, and one that I will visit one day for I want to visit Amazonas and the Jungle, that is true but when their government does not make changes that are necessary to comply with a treaty that they have with us and the other nations of the world consequences should be brought to bear when diplomacy is ineffective and it has been.
 
As for Rush and the others…. This is about an American citizen and should not be about Republican or Democrat. Liberal or Conservative. I have never voted for a party but for a person and if they do the right thing in this and they may get my vote but if thet do not I will work to get them voted out of office, even if I like you or not. Enough is Enough.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: ChristineS on December 17, 2009, 08:14:45 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51732
James I agree with you. I guess a place to start could be the denying the return of Brazilian children :nixweiss:. Doesn't seem like a good place to start improving relations. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a legal system that can be bought and paid for by the elite of Brazil. At least in the US the little guy stands a fighting chance in court.

ChopChop you are wrong.  Obama should absolutely step up to the plate with regards to David's case and all the other kidnapped children in Brazil.  Obama gets himself involved with soccer jerseys and off-shore oil drilling in Brazil, so why not the right for an American child to be returned to his father?
 
Furthermore, the idea of the US denying the return of Brazilian children?  We are not a nation of outlaws and never will be.  Hitting Brazil where it hurts ($$$$) is the way to go, not hurting children.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Audax on December 17, 2009, 08:16:11 PM
Quote from: csaguiar;51366
Caso Goldman: min Marco Aurélio concede liminar e menor permanece, por ora, no Brasil

He granted a stay!!! bastard!!!!


Hate to say it,  but 'told you so'. That's exactly what I called him yesterday.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 08:17:37 PM
Quote from: mikeberry;51734
Then who is supposed to step in? David should NOT have to deal with it if Brazil was following their OWN laws! I did not realize that proven kidnappers and child abusers were allowed to freely roam the Brazillian Court halls! I did not realize that in Brazil, a kidnapper and child abuser has more rights than the loving natural father! AND THIS IS NOT A CUSTODY CASE, IT IS KIDNAPPING AND ABUSE OF A CHILD!!!!! IT IS NOT OK, EVER AND NO ONE SHOULD "HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT"!! The reason Brazil looks ridiculous is because they will not return a kidnapped, abused child to his natural father or follow the Treaty they FREELY signed!! Oh, and let's not forget that it is now blatently obvious to the world how corrupt Brazil is!! God, this case is so black and white a two year old could rule correctly on it in a day!! This is so sick and twisted I can't beleive it is reality!! I am not yelling at you ChopChop, just venting!

Mike,
 
I agree with you, but blaming the duly elected president for Davids dilemma is over the top.  The reason Sean is not home has nothing to do with who our president is and everything to do with the well established corrupt and biased legal system in Brazil.  I have said this before, does anyone think that Bruna and Joao would have kidnapped Sean unless they thought they had a good chance of getting away with it in the first place?  Blaming the president and calling him racial epithets is not the answer to getting Sean back, JM2c.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 08:19:10 PM
I saw the release from Holt, but have not seen any comments from David, Apy, Smith, Hillary or Obama.  Could this be something positive since I saw someone post about David Appearing in court tomorrow?  I just cannot see David going home without Sean at this point.  The corruption is blatent and the disgust is growing by the second.  Praying!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 08:24:09 PM
Quote from: whartn;51705
SOS Reno took Elian from the whackos housing him in Miami.She acted on behalf of the US Central Authority.Why can`t Lula do the same with Sean?
If after tomorrows court ,Sean is still in Brazil,then Lula should do the same.He can`t hide behind separation of powers.Obama should start using his balls instead of just his mouth.Lula is an opportunist and will not move unless we turn up the heat.


:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

and, I might add, thank you Chop Chop for providing us with something to swing at for the past couple of hours!  I think most of us including you are on the same page here.......not a happy page, but the same one.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: margie on December 17, 2009, 08:24:11 PM
Andrea Mitchell of MSNBC, Nightly News said that David will appear in court tomorrow to try to get his son. I thought the court could order that, Sean could go home even if a stay was ordered and while it was decided upon.

Margie
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: ChristineS;51736
ChopChop you are wrong. Obama should absolutely step up to the plate with regards to David's case and all the other kidnapped children in Brazil. Obama gets himself involved with soccer jerseys and off-shore oil drilling in Brazil, so why not the right for an American child to be returned to his father?
 
Furthermore, the idea of the US denying the return of Brazilian children? We are not a nation of outlaws and never will be. Hitting Brazil where it hurts ($$$$) is the way to go, not hurting children.

 
Christine, I'm not advocating denying the return of children to Brazil.  The purpose of that remark was to demonstrate the obsurdity of retailation by juxtaposition.  I agree that additional measures need to be employed, just what will take time to develop and will have to be addressed through the SOS.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 08:25:03 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51739
Mike,
 
I agree with you, but blaming the duly elected president for Davids dilemma is over the top. The reason Sean is not home has nothing to do with who our president is and everything to do with the well established corrupt and biased legal system in Brazil. I have said this before, does anyone think that Bruna and Joao would have kidnapped Sean unless they thought they had a good chance of getting away with it in the first place? Blaming the president and calling him racial epithets is not the answer to getting Sean back, JM2c.

I am sorry if you thought I was name calling.  I re-read my post and did not see where I called anyone names.  I also was not blaming anyone in particular.  There is a lot of blame to go around from both countries.  I am just very mad and disheartened right now.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 08:27:12 PM
Quote from: margie;51745
Andrea Mitchell of MSNBC, Nightly News said that David will appear in court tomorrow to try to get his son. I thought the court could order that, Sean could go home even if a stay was ordered and while it was decided upon.

Margie


No, that's the point of the "stay", it is a SUSPENSION of the order to go home. What the judge could theoretically have done is "pocket" the request, as he implied he was considering, let Sean leave, then formally open the HC request later--when it would be moot.  Instead the SOB suspended the order in the face of all human decency and Brazilian judicial opinion.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 08:31:28 PM
Quote from: mikeberry;51747
I am sorry if you thought I was name calling. I re-read my post and did not see where I called anyone names. I also was not blaming anyone in particular. There is a lot of blame to go around from both countries. I am just very mad and disheartened right now.

Mike, it's all good bro.  I try not to take things too personal, after all we are just talking.  I'm as upset as everyone else here at BSH, this case is like watching a slow train wreck and knowing how to stop it but not being able to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: tweinstein on December 17, 2009, 08:37:41 PM
Quote from: greg4sean;51703
No his is not responsible for all of the Worlds wrongs.

  • He is responsible for how the State Department handles Hague cases on his watch and the sorry lack of support they give Left Behind Parents just look at some of their postings on BSH to see how they are treated. Listen to the testimony from December 2nd.
  • He is responsible for not speaking out in support of HR 3240.
  • He is responsible for not being more forceful with Lula and not hug him and play nice. Lula and the legislative branch of Brazil can change the laws and the system.
  • He is responsible for not fighting against sending money to any nation who is not compliant with the Hague on his watch.
  • He is responsible for not taking Presidential action that he can do. As mentioned before Bush suspended the GSP for a nation for not helping with the drug war so why can he not do this? There is much he can do without HR 3240 and he has not. He has taken more action than Bush did but it is not enough.
  • He can send SOS down to Brazil today.
  • He can send Vice-President Biden down today.
  • Chris Smith is in Brazil to support David and as for Clinton’s statement today…..come on it was all political and did not mention the other LBP.
  • Yes I want more. I want them all home and Obama should be pushing Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and the other nations and is not. He should be pushing Congress and he is not.
  • He is supposed to defend all of the citizens of the United States of America and he is not defending the over 2,800 of them.
                  Sean will be home one day of that I have no fear. The question is how many others will be home.
 
We have to push for H.R. 3240.
We have to push President Obama and SOS Clinton.
We must have “Maximum Force” and hold every single member of congress and the President accountable for what they do or not do.
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Audax on December 17, 2009, 08:38:54 PM
But Marco Aurélio may well attempt an analogical application of that rule to Sean's case in two years time, if he manages to drag the case until then

I am convinced this is his goal. And the US government is completely blind to this FACT!!!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 08:39:28 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51744
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
 
and, I might add, thank you Chop Chop for providing us with something to swing at for the past couple of hours! I think most of us including you are on the same page here.......not a happy page, but the same one.

 
No problem Caldwell, it's not personal and I know that.  We all have to tolerate unpleasant situations and I for one will try not to let the words of others break my bones, sticks and stones-well that's another story.  I have shed many tears for David and his son and I think I will be shedding a few more before this nightmare is finally over...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: ENR on December 17, 2009, 08:44:23 PM
I guess I am just surprised that there isn't more backlash and expressed outrage by the people of Brazil.  If some granny was trying to pull stunts like this in the states - Oh my- she would not get very far to put it nicely and would probably be getting threats of all sorts from the public.  This all may be business as usual in Brazil but there have got to be independent soles from the media and political parties who are seriously outraged by this dog and pony show.  Or maybe I am just being too optimistic.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Audax on December 17, 2009, 08:45:45 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51561
Obama has the executive authority to enact the sanctions that Chris Smith is asking for in HR 2702 without anything being passed by Congress.


Just sent POTUS a firery message demand just that. I am disgusted with all the nice talk and ZERO walk BS. Is this the way he plans to run this country for the next 3 years? It's like holding the door open for the Republicans to win the next presidential election.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: orangepunchbuggy on December 17, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
I so feel like this is personal now...I am THAT angry.
THAT MAN is nothing more than insecure with money piled on him to cover it up! I hope some day he is HIT on the HEAD with the realization of what he is doing, how he has been living, and what he is doing to this little boy BECAUSE of his own upbringing. I would be willing to bet that money washed over everything in his life growing up and he feels nobody ever cared about him, wanted him, or anything else. He probabley never felt good enough for HIS father...and mother and this power play is covering up everything he is not dealing with.! I wish I had magical powers right now...just to get at HIM. Maybe we should make a christmas play..."the ghosts of your past", and the "ghost of your present", "future", and "a glimspe of how most of the decent world sees you". Maybe his sperm count is low and he can't produce a son of his own.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 08:53:54 PM
Quote from: noah3698;51584
I know it is frowned upon to discuss the strategy of David's lawyers but  why can't his lawyers start use some of these legal loopholes that JPLS's legal team is using? There must be more they can do!


As I read your message, its 23:36 here in Rio, and I drank an excessive amount of sake tonight, and I am very tired, in part because of the massive disappointment over today's ruling.

But I say this to you: at some point, I started to think about a crazy legal strategy that would copy the methods of JPLS.

And I reached the conclusion that someone who was in touch with David's legal team, but who was not part of that team, should file an HC before the Supreme Court AGAINST JUSTICE MARCO AURÉLIO.

I mean, today's HC, in which MA granted injunction, was filed against a Court of Law (the Superior Court of Justice, STJ). It is also possible to file an HC against Marco Aurélio himself.

Of course, as the defendant of that HC, he wouldn't be able to act as a judge, which means that he wouldn't be rapporteur and wouldn't have a vote.

Given the principle of universal standing that applies to HCs in Brazilian law, anyone could file an HC on Sean's behalf, arguing that Sean's movement is being impeded because his return to America, ordered by two Courts of law, is being illegaly blocked.

It would be complex but possible, to show that MA's ruling, issued today, is illegal, as it contradicts the case law of STF. Someone linked to David's defense should draft the HC.

If the HC is filed during the recess, President Gilmar Mendes, who is no friend of Marco Aurélio, would decide the HC. And he could even grant an injunction to deprive MA's ruling of effects.

Alll this is a very long shot, because Mendes probably wouldn't accept the use of the HC for that purpose; but he could decide to counter-strike Marco Aurélio with the same tools he used. After all, Mendes is all for compliance with the Hague Convention.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bob D'Amico on December 17, 2009, 08:55:31 PM
Let me "intervene" here by first stating that the State Dept during the Bush Administration was less than worthless.

It is now 2009, soon to be 2010. The Obama administration became involved in this case due to the huge embarrassment (loss of face) when Republican Congressman Smith accomplished more in two weeks than Congressman Rush Holt and Senator Lautenberg did in five years. Notice I did not include Senator Robert Melendez, he probably doesn't have a clue who David and Sean Goldman are.

This all occurred because of the BSH campaign which was reported by the Today Show and Dateline NBC. You are looking right now at the very core of the BSH campaign, this website. Without it as our voice and the voices of thousands of people from around the world we would be no where.

I am not permitted to go into details but make no mistake that here in the U.S. raw partisan politics has and continues to negate the work we have all been doing to help bring Sean home.

Sunday night on CBS 60 minutes President Obama gave himself a B+ in response to the question on how he is doing as President of the United States.  As regards the Goldman case and the other 2,800 abducted American children, in my personal opinion he gets an F-.

It's time for the President of the United States to "man up," show some indignation and backbone and take a much more proactive role in directing his administration and fellow Democrats in Congress to take action to put an end to all these 2,800 human tradegies.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: margie on December 17, 2009, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51748
No, that's the point of the "stay", it is a SUSPENSION of the order to go home. What the judge could theoretically have done is "pocket" the request, as he implied he was considering, let Sean leave, then formally open the HC request later--when it would be moot.  Instead the SOB suspended the order in the face of all human decency and Brazilian judicial opinion.

OK thanks for clearing this up. But I just read on CNN that Chris Smith said today in so many words that the court could look at this tomorrow or Monday and decide if Sean could go home.

Maybe there is still a chance?

Margie

PS I just got onto this board tonight. Can't check it at work. So excuse please for not reading all the posts. Try to read most.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 08:58:42 PM
Another observation as some of us prepare to make calls, send faxes, reach out to our "leaders" (boy am I hesitant to use that term) tomorrow:

Where the hell are the other voices from the "official" realm of American Life?
Congressman Chris Smith.

And then there is.......... SOS Clinton thanking Brazil for their wonderful work........and then, and then...???? SILENCE !!

OK, Obama is on his way to Copenhagen, fine (not).  

There are 435 Reps, 100 Senators, a NJ governor, and on and on.  

Which one of them called a press conference today to decry this injustice?  Which one let it be known, as a Representative of the People of the United States, that we cannot tolerate this?  Mr. Lautenberg? Mr. Menendez? Mr. Holt?  Where are you guys?  Friday before lunch would be a great time to hear from you LOUD & CLEAR PLEASE.[/B][/I]
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: sue on December 17, 2009, 08:58:46 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51764
Let me "intervene" here by first stating that the State Dept during the Bush Administration was less than worthless.
 
It is now 2009, soon to be 2010. The Obama administration became involved in this case due to the huge embarrassment (loss of face) when Republican Congressman Smith accomplished more in two weeks than Congressman Rush Holt and Senator Lautenberg did in five years. Notice I did not include Senator Robert Melendez, he probably doesn't have a clue who David and Sean Goldman are.
 
This all occurred because of the BSH campaign which was reported by the Today Show and Dateline NBC. You are looking right now at the very core of the BSH campaign, this website. Without it as our voice and the voices of thousands of people from around the world we would be no where.
 
I am not permitted to go into details but make no mistake that here in the U.S. raw partisan politics has and continues to negate the work we have all been doing to help bring Sean home.
 
Sunday night on CBS 60 minutes President Obama gave himself a B+ in response to the question on how he is doing as President of the United States. As regards the Goldman case and the other 2,800 abducted American children, in my personal opinion he gets an F-.
 
It's time for the President of the United States to "man up," show some indignation and backbone and take a much more proactive role in directing his administration and fellow Democrats in Congress to take action to put an end to all these 2,800 human tradegies.
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: André Felipe on December 17, 2009, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51763
As I read your message, its 23:36 here in Rio, and I drank an excessive amount of sake tonight, and I am very tired, in part because of the massive disappointment over today's ruling.
 
But I say this to you: at some point, I started to think about a crazy legal strategy that would copy the methods of JPLS.
 
And I reached the conclusion that someone who was in touch with David's legal team, but who was not part of that team, should file an HC before the Supreme Court AGAINST JUSTICE MARCO AURÉLIO.
 
***

LOLL...what a idea!!
Well,  as Gilmar Mendes dislikes MA, it might work...who knows...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 09:02:21 PM
Quote from: margie;51765
OK thanks for clearing this up. But I just read on CNN that Chris Smith said today in so many words that the court could look at this tomorrow or Monday and decide if Sean could go home.

Maybe there is still a chance?

Margie

PS I just got onto this board tonight. Can't check it at work. So excuse please for not reading all the posts. Try to read most.

You can never read all the posts! They will get out ahead of you, wait and then gobble you up. Ask my wife. My bedtime has gotten 2 hrs later than ever in my life over the last 6 months.

We know as much as you know about another shot here. Maybe they have an avenue into the court to try to nullify or work around the "stay". Most informed Brazilian members here are not encouraging, I must say.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 09:02:37 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51764
Let me "intervene" here by first stating that the State Dept during the Bush Administration was less than worthless.
 
It is now 2009, soon to be 2010. The Obama administration became involved in this case due to the huge embarrassment (loss of face) when Republican Congressman Smith accomplished more in two weeks than Congressman Rush Holt and Senator Lautenberg did in five years. Notice I did not include Senator Robert Melendez, he probably doesn't have a clue who David and Sean Goldman are.
 
This all occurred because of the BSH campaign which was reported by the Today Show and Dateline NBC. You are looking right now at the very core of the BSH campaign, this website. Without it as our voice and the voices of thousands of people from around the world we would be no where.
 
I am not permitted to go into details but make no mistake that here in the U.S. raw partisan politics has and continues to negate the work we have all been doing to help bring Sean home.
 
Sunday night on CBS 60 minutes President Obama gave himself a B+ in response to the question on how he is doing as President of the United States. As regards the Goldman case and the other 2,800 abducted American children, in my personal opinion he gets an F-.
 
It's time for the President of the United States to "man up," show some indignation and backbone and take a much more proactive role in directing his administration and fellow Democrats in Congress to take action to put an end to all these 2,800 human tradegies.

 
Bob I know this is off topic but you can add Heathcare, Afganistan, the mortgage meltdown and the TARP program to that list as well.  I voted for Obama and gave money to his campaign, I don't think I'll be doing that in 2012.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Atlantic965 on December 17, 2009, 09:05:32 PM
Well said Bob. Paulo Lins E Silva is right. A clever lawyer can keep a abducted child in Brazil till the end of time if he knows how to manipulate the country's dysfunctional judiciary. It is time to have the CIA Station cheif in Brasila find out who JLPS and the Ribieros have been buying off and threaten to expose the facts. President Lula is very image concious and wants Brazil respected. JLPS had to have bought off the Supreme Court judges who ruled this was not a Hague case in 2004. A revelation that the courts are that corrupt would cause The Government to act fast to avoid international humilation.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Audax on December 17, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51772
Bob I know this is off topic but you can add Heathcare, Afganistan, the mortgage meltdown and the TARP program to that list as well.  I voted for Obama and gave money to his campaign, I don't think I'll be doing that in 2012.


I am sure there are some people reading this that will tell Obama of comments like this. Maybe he even checks in here himself from time to time. And I hope he gets the message.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 09:07:04 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51763
As I read your message, its 23:36 here in Rio, and I drank an excessive amount of sake tonight, and I am very tired, in part because of the massive disappointment over today's ruling.

But I say this to you: at some point, I started to think about a crazy legal strategy that would copy the methods of JPLS.

And I reached the conclusion that someone who was in touch with David's legal team, but who was not part of that team, should file an HC before the Supreme Court AGAINST JUSTICE MARCO AURÉLIO.

I mean, today's HC, in which MA granted injunction, was filed against a Court of Law (the Superior Court of Justice, STJ). It is also possible to file an HC against Marco Aurélio himself.

Of course, as the defendant of that HC, he wouldn't be able to act as a judge, which means that he wouldn't be rapporteur and wouldn't have a vote.

Given the principle of universal standing that applies to HCs in Brazilian law, anyone could file an HC on Sean's behalf, arguing that Sean's movement is being impeded because his return to America, ordered by two Courts of law, is being illegaly blocked.

It would be complex but possible, to show that MA's ruling, issued today, is illegal, as it contradicts the case law of STF. Someone linked to David's defense should draft the HC.

If the HC is filed during the recess, President Gilmar Mendes, who is no friend of Marco Aurélio, would decide the HC. And he could even grant an injunction to deprive MA's ruling of effects.

Alll this is a very long shot, because Mendes probably wouldn't accept the use of the HC for that purpose; but he could decide to counter-strike Marco Aurélio with the same tools he used. After all, Mendes is all for compliance with the Hague Convention.

Perfect!! In fact I suggested something similar in one of the social groups here, but with not all details as you did because I do not have the legal knowledgement for it. But, I agree that David's defense should try to use Gilmar Mendes and his animosity against Marco Aurélio.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 09:07:09 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51764
You are looking right now at the very core of the BSH campaign, this website. Without it as our voice and the voices of thousands of people from around the world we would be no where.

It's time for the President of the United States to "man up," show some indignation and backbone and take a much more proactive role in directing his administration and fellow Democrats in Congress to take action to put an end to all these 2,800 human tradegies.

Yes, yes, yes.  And for a lot more than these tragedies, but we won't get off topic.  I said earlier, even the committed liberal in me wishes Mr. Obama had some Ronald Reagan running through his veins.  "Mr. Lula, send back our kids!"
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51769
LOLL...what a idea!!
Well,  as Gilmar Mendes dislikes MA, it might work...who knows...


I'm serious. Someone should give it a shot during the recess.

An HC against Marco Aurélio, demanding Sean's immediate repatriation to the United States.

If I were Mendes, I would grant it on the spot.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Dan_Plainview on December 17, 2009, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51763
As I read your message, its 23:36 here in Rio, and I drank an excessive amount of sake tonight, and I am very tired, in part because of the massive disappointment over today's ruling.

But I say this to you: at some point, I started to think about a crazy legal strategy that would copy the methods of JPLS.

And I reached the conclusion that someone who was in touch with David's legal team, but who was not part of that team, should file an HC before the Supreme Court AGAINST JUSTICE MARCO AURÉLIO.

I mean, today's HC, in which MA granted injunction, was filed against a Court of Law (the Superior Court of Justice, STJ). It is also possible to file an HC against Marco Aurélio himself.

Of course, as the defendant of that HC, he wouldn't be able to act as a judge, which means that he wouldn't be rapporteur and wouldn't have a vote.

Given the principle of universal standing that applies to HCs in Brazilian law, anyone could file an HC on Sean's behalf, arguing that Sean's movement is being impeded because his return to America, ordered by two Courts of law, is being illegaly blocked.

It would be complex but possible, to show that MA's ruling, issued today, is illegal, as it contradicts the case law of STF. Someone linked to David's defense should draft the HC.

If the HC is filed during the recess, President Gilmar Mendes, who is no friend of Marco Aurélio, would decide the HC. And he could even grant an injunction to deprive MA's ruling of effects.

Alll this is a very long shot, because Mendes probably wouldn't accept the use of the HC for that purpose; but he could decide to counter-strike Marco Aurélio with the same tools he used. After all, Mendes is all for compliance with the Hague Convention.

Help me understand. It could not be the AGU or representatives from Tranchesi Ortiz & Andrade, right ... but "linked to David's defense". Who then?

Are there Attorneys on the Grupo de Trabalho sobre Subtração Internacional de Menores ... or only Justices?  
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: André Felipe on December 17, 2009, 09:13:04 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51777
I'm serious. Someone should give it a shot during the recess.
 
An HC against Marco Aurélio, demanding Sean's immediate repatriation to the United States.
 
If I were Mendes, I would grant it on the spot.

Yeahh, I know, but I have to say it's so craazy, but it's just another crazyness in a crazy day with crazy decision = normal...
 
It might work, indeed, if Gilmar Mendes has the power to issue a preliminary decision against MA, in a Habeas Corpus filed against him...why not?
 
acsgomes told me that Globo Television reported David's lawyers are thinkin on a way to use Gilmar Mendes, peharps they are considerin it.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 17, 2009, 09:15:28 PM
Quote from: Dan_Plainview;51779
Help me understand. It could not be the AGU or representatives from Tranchesi Ortiz & Andrade, right ... but "linked to David's defense". Who then?

Are there Attorneys on the Grupo de Trabalho sobre Subtração Internacional de Menores ... or only Justices?  


People from the Working Group are not going to do it; they are an institutional body. AGU isn't going to do it either. And I only suggested that David's lawyers stay clear of that because, if it fails, it could complicate relations between the lawyers and Marco Aurélio, who is still rapporteur of several cases.

So, the plaintiff of the HC should be someone else, but it should no doubt be drafted in close cooperation with David's legal team. Perhaps, David's current lawyers could even recommend another law firm to act in cooperation with it, filing the HC I now proposed against MA.

Anyway, goodnight, folks.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: margie on December 17, 2009, 09:16:56 PM
I'm calling tomorrow on my lunch hour and will continue to and also to start faxing.

Margie
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: acsgomes on December 17, 2009, 09:18:35 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51780

acsgomes told me that Globo Television reported David's lawyers are thinkin on a way to use Gilmar Mendes, peharps they are considerin it.

Not exactly that. The Globo TV journalist said that David's defense could try an appeal to Gilmar Mendes during the vacations period. But it sounded most like an opinion of the journalist.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bob D'Amico on December 17, 2009, 09:22:21 PM
This is not the place to discuss "inside the Beltway" politics. Bearing in mind that people of any political party who live inside the Beltway think we're all provincials and ignorant. Nevertheless many Obama supporters are distraught that he has not exhibited the fortitude they expected to create the positive changes as promised in his visionary oratory.

This case and child abductions are not complex. Brazil harbors kidnappers and has never returned a kidnapped American child PERIOD.

Re-read Bernard Aronson's testimony on 12/2 before the Tom Lantos Human Right Commission. http://bringseanhome.org/Bernard_Aronson_testimony.pdf
 (http://bringseanhome.org/Bernard_Aronson_testimony.pdf)
I would love to be able to call the President and just say, "Barack, it's not complicated, you can really do this."
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 09:26:02 PM
Can someone please explain what the court date tomorrow is for?  And if "all is lost" until February, why do we not have a reaction from at least Congressman Smith?  I do not see Congressman Smith being very quiet about this.  I still have hope!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Luiza on December 17, 2009, 09:29:28 PM
I think it is very scary that they would even consider listening to a child of 9 that has been in the hands of his Grandmother for 5 yrs.  goodness knows what she and the rest have been filling his head with.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bob D'Amico on December 17, 2009, 09:30:43 PM
We can't explain what is happening because we do not know all the details. The best I can say is that David and Congressman Smith have not given up.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: margie on December 17, 2009, 09:30:55 PM
Quote from: mikeberry;51787
Can someone please explain what the court date tomorrow is for?  And if "all is lost" until February, why do we not have a reaction from at least Congressman Smith?  I do not see Congressman Smith being very quiet about this.  I still have hope!

I mentioned just awhile ago that Cong. Smith said on CNN.com not on video that something (in so many words) could still happen tomorrow or Monday. Maybe that is why the rest is quiet.

I'm going to hang on to some hope too.

Margie
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Caldwell on December 17, 2009, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: Bob D'Amico;51786

This case and child abductions are not complex. Brazil harbors kidnappers and has never returned a kidnapped American child PERIOD.

I would love to be able to call the President and just say, "Barack, it's not complicated, you can really do this."

And he has SO many tools at his disposal: commerce & trade, immigration, economic development, international alliances, and more. Just pick ONE, Mr. President, and have an impact.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: UD_student on December 17, 2009, 09:37:13 PM
Quote from: mikeberry;51787
Can someone please explain what the court date tomorrow is for?  And if "all is lost" until February, why do we not have a reaction from at least Congressman Smith?  I do not see Congressman Smith being very quiet about this.  I still have hope!

Chris Smith spoke to NBC and so did David today. It aired on the Nightly News segment although they stated David spoke with Dateline. (I also just posted this link in the media section):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34464665/ns/world_news-americas/

From AP article on msnbc (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34464665/ns/world_news-americas/) Rep. Chris Smith said he was deeply disappointed by the Supreme Court's ruling and called on Brazil to send the boy back to the U.S. based on international law. "We have a reciprocity agreement when it comes to abducted children," Smith said. "We all have an international obligation to work to get children back to their habitual residence."
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: UD_student;51794
Chris Smith spoke to NBC and so did David today. It aired on the Nightly News segment although they stated David spoke with Dateline. (I also just posted this link in the media section):
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34464665/ns/world_news-americas/
 
From AP article on msnbc (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34464665/ns/world_news-americas/) Rep. Chris Smith said he was deeply disappointed by the Supreme Court's ruling and called on Brazil to send the boy back to the U.S. based on international law. "We have a reciprocity agreement when it comes to abducted children," Smith said. "We all have an international obligation to work to get children back to their habitual residence."

Thanks for the update.  I just looked at CNN and this story is the most viewed as of a few minutes ago.  I hope it stays that way.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: André Felipe on December 17, 2009, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: margie;51790
I mentioned just awhile ago that Cong. Smith said on CNN.com not on video that something (in so many words) could still happen tomorrow or Monday. Maybe that is why the rest is quiet.
 
I'm going to hang on to some hope too.
 
Margie

There will be a session tomorrow, with the full Court, the last of this year, but I think it's not possible to fit another issue on tomorrow session which was not scheduled for this.
 
And I heard on the radio ("Voz do Brasil") that will be the panel, not the full Court , which will analyse the Marco Aurelio's preliminary decision, on February.
 
Tomorrow we may know more details.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Jackie in Upstate NY on December 17, 2009, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: Caldwell;51792
And he has SO many tools at his disposal: commerce & trade, immigration, economic development, international alliances, and more. Just pick ONE, Mr. President, and have an impact.
I've already been using MY tools and making sure I know where every product I purchase or consume comes from (including gasoline!) It all adds up - while we have everyones attention - HINT HINT - pay attention people and get after all our elected officials - I WILL NEVER LET UP !
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: mikeberry on December 17, 2009, 09:53:24 PM
Quote from: André Felipe;51796
There will be a session tomorrow, with the full Court, the last of this year, but I think it's not possible to fit another issue on tomorrow session which was not scheduled for this.
 
And I heard on the radio ("Voz do Brasil") that will be the panel, not the full Court , which will analyse the Marco Aurelio's preliminary decision, on February.
 
Tomorrow we may know more details.

They could hear the issue if they wanted to.  They just don't care about kidnapped and abused children.  Thanks for the info as always, Andre!  It is very much appreciated
 
Also, like someone posted earlier, I cannot beleive Sean has not googled himself!  As soon as he finds out the truth, it will be all over for Granny!  A father trumps granny.  A boy wants the love of his father more than anything!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: sue on December 17, 2009, 09:53:58 PM
This makes me sick.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Grace on December 17, 2009, 10:17:52 PM
"It is time to have the CIA Station chief in Brasilia find out who JLPS and the Ribieros have been buying off and threaten to expose the facts"
 
I like that. That there is corruption going on seems clear as water. Some exchange of favor is going on.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 10:19:40 PM
Quote from: mikeberry;51799
They could hear the issue if they wanted to. They just don't care about kidnapped and abused children. Thanks for the info as always, Andre! It is very much appreciated
 
Also, like someone posted earlier, I cannot beleive Sean has not googled himself! As soon as he finds out the truth, it will be all over for Granny! A father trumps granny. A boy wants the love of his father more than anything!

 
Completely agree. When the Lins e Silva/Ribeiros Crime Family needs a ruling, the corrupt Brazilian judiciary drops everything and issues immediate orders, sometimes even handwritten.
 
However, David Goldman and other LBPs, like Tim Weinstein, Francois Larivee and others, have had to wait months and years to even get a hearing each step of the way.
 
A complete embarrassment of a judicial system.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 10:35:27 PM
Don't have any inside knowledge of that David's legal team will try tomorrow, but we will certainly see if justice is equally available to all parties in Brazil.  If they refuse to even hear their pleas, that just about seals the deal (like it needed sealing) that this is a rigged system from the get-go.  If that isn't something we can take to the White House in speaking to "swift" justice, I don't know what is.

As Bob posted, there are a lot of Obama voters out here who are increasingly dissatisfied with his inaction on this.  Yes, responsibility rests with Brazil.  But pressure from the US can prompt action down there.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: danomyte on December 17, 2009, 10:39:53 PM
This whole thing is just disgusting. Our government has all sorts of resources to get kidnapped adult journalists freed from North Korea, but we can't get back one innocent child from Brazil.  Makes me want to XXX' puke.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: nbianch on December 17, 2009, 10:46:53 PM
I have been sick about this decision since it came down!  Why is it the dark side can appeal and get a decision within hours ? Why can't David appeal this decision and get a decision in hours?? This is criminal.  Hillary needs to step up to the plate and get Sean out of that prison!  Bill went to free those journalists.
In Brazil, it appears that money can buy just about anything.  I thought Granny already appealed for HC and was denied? How can she do it again?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: JamesJosephs on December 17, 2009, 10:46:55 PM
Quote from: danomyte;51821
This whole thing is just disgusting. Our government has all sorts of resources to get kidnapped adult journalists freed from North Korea, but we can't get back one innocent child from Brazil. Makes me want to XXX' puke.

As Bernie Aronson said, maybe if our children were kidnapped and held by teenage Somalian pirates, the current administration would take notice.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bree on December 17, 2009, 10:54:42 PM
Quote from: JamesJosephs;51829
As Bernie Aronson said, maybe if our children were kidnapped and held by teenage Somalian pirates, the current administration would take notice.

:yeahthat:
 
I was just looking for his quote. He said it perfectly, IMO.
 
ETA:
 
Then Aronson brought down the house with this: "If 2,800 American children were abducted tomorrow by Somali pirates ... the President of the United States would summon congressional leaders to the White House, convene an emergency meeting of the National Security Council, dispatch Delta forces and aircraft carriers to where the children were being held, send his United Nations ambassador to convene an emergency meeting of the Security Council, and go before the nation in prime time to report on what the U.S. government would do to secure the return of these abducted children.

"Well,'' Aronson concluded, "two thousand eight hundred American children HAVE been abducted.''

He went on to deplore the fact that left-behind parents everywhere must live in a "Kafkaesque world'' filled with ""Catch-22'' absurdities.
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Chicco on December 17, 2009, 11:17:19 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51781
People from the Working Group are not going to do it; they are an institutional body. AGU isn't going to do it either. And I only suggested that David's lawyers stay clear of that because, if it fails, it could complicate relations between the lawyers and Marco Aurélio, who is still rapporteur of several cases.
 
So, the plaintiff of the HC should be someone else, but it should no doubt be drafted in close cooperation with David's legal team. Perhaps, David's current lawyers could even recommend another law firm to act in cooperation with it, filing the HC I now proposed against MA.
Anyway, goodnight, folks.

Tunevsk,
 
I really liked your idea. In a STF in conflict as the one we have with so many ridiculous things going on alive and public every day in view of the growing animosity, it may not be such a long shot at the end...
 
Could anyone in Brazil do it? Do we need a person to do it or can the person be replaced by a NGO or an association or even someone representing BSH for instance? Does the person has to be Brazilian ?
 
I just want to understand who would need to step in to fill the role Silvana and the PP party played for JPLS case, which explain why is never JPLS filing the HC but someone in his behalf...
 
Depending on the answer and what the laywers do tomorrow we could try to find a suitable candidate.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Colie on December 17, 2009, 11:20:24 PM
This is absolute corruption!  How convenient that the Supreme Court waited until the very last minute to rule that Sean be returned home before their recess, only to quickly accomodate Grandma Silvana!  Obviously the Supreme Court wanted to impress the world with their law abiding unanimous decision.  What a disgusting plot!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Chuckles on December 17, 2009, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: Colie;51843
This is absolute corruption!  How convenient that the Supreme Court waited until the very last minute to rule that Sean be returned home before their recess, only to quickly accomodate Grandma Silvana!  Obviously the Supreme Court wanted to impress the world with their law abiding unanimous decision.  What a disgusting plot!

What?  This was the action of one Supreme Court Justice, not the entire STF.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: DaFish on December 17, 2009, 11:34:16 PM
I hate to say this, but so far they are just punking David's legal team and US representatives.   I think the days when the US can bully their way arround are gone.  This Marcus Aurelio dude must have wet dreams of finally sticking it to the "gringos".  I am still waiting for some real action drom Davids's attorney.  Anythig worth discussing.  If I were David, I would have done a hunger strike when the Olympic bid was announced.  How could this story be allowed to fade, when the opportunities were there?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 17, 2009, 11:47:35 PM
Quote from: Colie;51843
This is absolute corruption! How convenient that the Supreme Court waited until the very last minute to rule that Sean be returned home before their recess, only to quickly accomodate Grandma Silvana! Obviously the Supreme Court wanted to impress the world with their law abiding unanimous decision. What a disgusting plot!

 
You've got it wrong Colie. The Supreme Court of Brazil did not decide the case and then issue a stay against its own ruling. A lower, three judge court upheld the single judge ruling from June. The family went to a Supreme Court jurist and he issued a stay against the three judge ruling from yesterday. It is a very convoluted process I know but that is how the appellate process functions.
 
What is absurd is that fact that a Supreme Court justice of Brazil took the time to hear a habeas corpus plea from the grandmother of a minor child who has a competent living biological parent who is demanding custody. On the surface the process is perfectly legal but underneath it is immensely corrupt. Furthermore, there are no legal merits to the habeas corpus plea request. Imagine the Supreme Court of the US interjecting itself into child custody disputes here in the states, totally ridiculous. That is why you have lower courts in the first place, to resolve these issues.
 
The legal system in Brazil is so totally corrupt and stops just short of being a banana republic. It is obvious that the lower courts are trying to do the right thing and return Sean to David but the Lins e Silva family is so well connected that they even have a Supreme Court justice in their pocket. So the case isn't really being heard on the merits, because if it was Sean would have been home with David long ago. The reality here is the Brazilian family has money and are part of the Brazilian elite and they will stop at nothing to get their way. Now that's disgusting...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Chicco on December 18, 2009, 12:06:58 AM
Quote from: Sashia;51702
OHHHHH, YEAHHHH Sarny, I remember him.
So does the Times. http://bit.ly/kBkML
 
Just incase anyone wonders what "womb" Mello came from:
From The Times

August 17, 2009
 
 
Red nose revolt aims to oust 'corrupt' Senate head José Sarney

Sashia,
 
You are confusing Celso Mello indicated by Sarney, who happens to be a respected judge with very long and fundamented votes with Marco Aurelio Mello, indicated BY HIS COUSIN, Fernando Collor de Mello, impeached by the Congress after 3 years in power. They have same last name but they are not family related.
 
Marco Aurelio is from Rio, from a family of judges and since Rio has a very small high society very linked I am sure he is buddy of the L&S, Tostes and others... Being cousin of Fernando Collor is also enough to understand where he comes from but for your knowledge find below a small summary of the minister.
 
Marco Aurélio Mendes de Faria Mello (born in RJ, July 12, 1946) is one of the eleven ministers of the Supremo Tribunal Federal (http://"http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremo_Tribunal_Federal), in Brasil.
He was indicated to the Court by the president Fernando Collor de Mello (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Collor_de_Mello), his cousin, in May, 1990 to replace the retired minister Carlos Madeira (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Madeira), and he took over the position June 13th, 1990.
 
Studied at Colégio Souza Marques (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col%C3%A9gio_Souza_Marques) and Colégio Pedro II (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col%C3%A9gio_Pedro_II) (high class elite schools), both from Rio de Janeiro (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro). Graduated, in 1973, in the course of Social and Juridical Scienced by Faculdade Nacional de Direito (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faculdade_Nacional_de_Direito) from Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universidade_Federal_do_Rio_de_Janeiro), where he also acquired the credits for a master degree in Private Law, in 1982.
 
After graduation, he was an attorney for the Federação dos Agentes Autônomos do Comércio do Antigo Estado da Guanabara and Chief of the Juridical and Judicial Assistance Department of the Federal Council of Commercial Representatives.
 
Only then he started his professional career in the public sector, where he worked in the Labour Justice as a Labour Prossecutor (1st Region) and Labour Regional Court Judge. He was also Corregedor-geral of the Labour Justice and Minister of the Labour Superior Court.
 
He is currently a professor at Centro Universitário de Brasília and at Faculdade de Estudos Sociais Aplicados of Universidade de Brasília (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universidade_de_Bras%C3%ADlia). He has an intensive list of published thesis.
 
Is badly known, as the Minister of the lost vote, by the frequence of times he is just simply isolated in his voting position from the rest of the court. It is also known by his controverse votes. "I first consider what is the fair solution and only then I try to find support for it in the law" is a quote attributed to him.
 
In the years 1996 (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996) to 1997 (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997) he took over for the 1st time the presidency of the Superior Electoral Court (TSE), where he participated in the process of using information tecnology in the Brazilian elections. In April 2006 he once again became president of TSE, replacing Gilmar Mendes (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmar_Mendes).
STF acts

In July 2000 granted habeas corpus to Salvatore Alberto Cacciola (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Alberto_Cacciola), owner of the broken Marka Bank and responsible for an estimated loss of 1,5Billion of reais of public cash. With the HC Cacciola travelled to Itália (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%C3%A1lia) right after and lived as a fugitive until September 2007 when he was arrested in Mônaco (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B4naco) (In April 2005, The Federal Court of Rio condenmed Cacciola to 13 years of prison for stealing and fraudulent management). Comenting the case and the new arrest of Cacciola, Marco Aurélio de Mello said he would not hesitate to grant the habeas corpus again.
 
In another polemic decision, Marco Aurélio de Mello was the only minister to vote in favour of a habeas corpus to Suzane Louise von Richthofen (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzane_Louise_von_Richthofen), young high middle class lady who was judged and considered guilty for killing her own parents.
 
In 2007 he was responsible to grant two habeas corpus to Antônio Petrus Kalil (http://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ant%C3%B4nio_Petrus_Kalil&action=edit&redlink=1) - so called Turcão - accused of exploiting viced slot machines. Turcão was arrested by the Federal Police twice. Turcão was then arrested for the 3rd time commiting the same crime in November 29, 2007. In December 2008 he was the only minister that did not accept the accusations and vote to open a criminal investigation against his buddies involved in the so called mob of the viced slot machine corruption scheme. According to Marco Aurelion there was NO evidence to justify such investigation. Meanwhile the rest of the STF did not agree with Marco Aurelion and accepted the accusation of the Federal Prossecutor,  opening an investigation against members of the judiciary that were involved in the same scandal, which resulted in the removal of the superior court judge Paulo Medina (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Medina) of his public duties among other scandals.
 
This year he was the only Minister to vote in favour of the request of a journalism diploma to work as a journalist. The request was extinct after 40 years by all the other ministers and so once again Marco Aurélio lost his vote in June 17, 2009.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: LukieD on December 18, 2009, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51688
I respectfully disagree on this point. We live by the rule of law and must allow other nations to do the same. The SOS (the Presidents liason to the world) came out immediately and praised the Brazilian courts decision to send Sean back to David Friday. What do you want them to do that hasn't been done so far? Be specific, because as I see it they cannot interject themselves into the legal process of soverign nations, right?
 
I'm not to happy with President Obama right now but he doesn't deserve to be blamed for all the worlds wrongs...

Malalves is right:
"Lula will only care about this situation if he is subjected to pressure by the USA."
 
Well they could start by summoning the Brazilian Ambassador to the White House where they could read him the riot act about the BS going on in his country's court system and the damage it is doing to a young American child. That's probably a pretty good place to start. Many of us here at BSH have been saying for a long time that after Obama and Clinton agreed to take personal interest in this case and "discuss" it with their Brazilian counterparts that they are now on the hook for their lack of true commitment to seeing this resolved properly. I've thought all along that they were mistaken to mention the case once or twice and to assume that the Brazilians would somehow get the message that the US was serious about this case. Plenty more the SOS and President could be doing here, trust me. It's just a matter of whether or not they feel like creating a diplomatic incident over this. The question is will they stick their neck out, do their jobs, for the sake of David & Sean and the other LBPS (and their kids) whose hopes rest squarely on the outcome of this case?
 
SOS Clinton looks silly with that statement she put out because Justice Aurelio de Mello just basically laughed in her face and told her where she can stick it. And sadly that reflects poorly on the entire country of Brazil. And before anyone says that Lula can't interfere in an independent judiciary, the executive branch responsible for treaty compliance could find a way to make an executive order sending Sean home, especially now that two courts have ordered that to happen.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: JonathanR on December 18, 2009, 12:18:24 AM
i think it's going to take external pressure, threats, SOMETHING for the court's decision to ever be enforced. otherwise, this back and forth will go on until sean is grown....
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: LukieD on December 18, 2009, 12:27:01 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51714
I don't think you are being realistic here. Consider all the issues that President Obama has to deal with simultanously, heathcare, economics, terrorism etc. Furthermore, if Obama were to interject himself into this case: Fox news, Limbuagh and all the other right wingnut jobs would have a political feast with his remains. As the leader of the free world he has to stand by and let other nations follow the rule of law, even if that nation has a system rife with corruption.

So what happens when those nations you refer to DO NOT follow the rule of law? Isn't that the problem we're having? Obama can do plenty behind the scenes, that's the right way to handle it.
 
And no one can convince me that the leader of the free world can't take up an issue of a gross injustice in a foreign country.  As for the other issues he has on his plate, it's all about priorities. of course he has many issues to juggle, but many of us want to know where the rights of abducted American children fit in on his priority list. Right now it doesn't seem like it's too high on his list.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: FC_Florida on December 18, 2009, 12:47:41 AM
Quote from: JonathanR;51857
i think it's going to take external pressure, threats, SOMETHING for the court's decision to ever be enforced. otherwise, this back and forth will go on until sean is grown....


What about pressuring the Central Authority of other Hague Convention signatory countries? The members of the permanent bureau of HCCH (Hague Conference on Private Law??? The United Nations????
Maybe we should be reaching out to organizations related to Parental Alienation as well?

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=text.display&tid=1

http://www.alliance4justice.eu/pages/supporting_organisations.htm

http://acalpa.org/

http://www.sos-papai.org/en_index.html

http://www.fatherhoodinstitute.org/
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: DaveSeow on December 18, 2009, 01:06:05 AM
Marco Auriello Mello has done this the second time. He is flagrantly ignoring the fact that a child was a kidnapped and the Hague convention. It seems like it's like he's made up his mind that Sean should not be returned and will constantly approve the stays until the court awards the custody to the Bianchi's and Lins De Silva who have prevented Father from spending any significant time with his dad.

Brazil was awarded the 2016 Olympic Games.  The Olympics are the best of humanity, the best of the human spirit. However the way they have handled the Sean Goldman shows that they really do not have that spirit at all or any compassion.  The world is watching You, Brazil and judging you on whether you will do the right thing. Enough is enough! Perhaps Countries who believe in justice should sign a treaty to boycott the 2016 Olympic games if Sean is not returned to his father. God Bless you, David and Sean. Keep the Hope. Know that more people are for you than you can possibly know.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: DaveSeow on December 18, 2009, 01:10:29 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51853
You've got it wrong Colie. The Supreme Court of Brazil did not decide the case and then issue a stay against its own ruling. A lower, three judge court upheld the single judge ruling from June. The family went to a Supreme Court jurist and he issued a stay against the three judge ruling from yesterday. It is a very convoluted process I know but that is how the appellate process functions.
 
What is absurd is that fact that a Supreme Court justice of Brazil took the time to hear a habeas corpus plea from the grandmother of a minor child who has a competent living biological parent who is demanding custody. On the surface the process is perfectly legal but underneath it is immensely corrupt. Furthermore, there are no legal merits to the habeas corpus plea request. Imagine the Supreme Court of the US interjecting itself into child custody disputes here in the states, totally ridiculous. That is why you have lower courts in the first place, to resolve these issues.
 
The legal system in Brazil is so totally corrupt and stops just short of being a banana republic. It is obvious that the lower courts are trying to do the right thing and return Sean to David but the Lins e Silva family is so well connected that they even have a Supreme Court justice in their pocket. So the case isn't really being heard on the merits, because if it was Sean would have been home with David long ago. The reality here is the Brazilian family has money and are part of the Brazilian elite and they will stop at nothing to get their way. Now that's disgusting...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: DaveSeow on December 18, 2009, 01:14:59 AM
Quote from: DaveSeow;51865


You know, The Olympic council should review the vote of the 2016 games and revoke it until the Sean is returned. If not, countries should sign a treaty boycotting the games. I know I am naive, but I am so upset right now.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 01:50:11 AM
Quote from: LukieD;51856
SOS Clinton looks silly with that statement she put out because Justice Aurelio de Mello just basically laughed in her face and told her where she can stick it. And sadly that reflects poorly on the entire country of Brazil. And before anyone says that Lula can't interfere in an independent judiciary, the executive branch responsible for treaty compliance could find a way to make an executive order sending Sean home, especially now that two courts have ordered that to happen.

Luke, I'm not saying that the president or SOS can't do more, sure they can. What I'm saying is that the diplomatic process is not as black and white as we would like. It's clear that the legal process in Brazil is corrupt and that corruption is at the core of the case. However, the POTUS can't intercede into every international child custody case. That is what the lower court system is for to resolve those custody disputes. Clearly, David has the most cut and dry case imaginable but that clarity does not automatically preempt due process. Marco Aurelio is in the tank for the Brazilian family, that is so obvious. Aurelio's stay actions are the sole reason Sean is not home with David. Let's face it, without Aurelio the Brazilian family's custody claim is sunk. The challenge here is to expose the corruption which is preventing David's and Sean reunion, but how do you do that through the diplomatic process?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: JonathanR on December 18, 2009, 01:55:50 AM
our higher ups have done a lot of talking, and they do mean well. but it's not enough. if someone's not committed to breaking a sweat then they don't belong in this business (for lack of a better word) of international law enforcement. and yes, the president is obligated to do so. as of now, chris smith is the only  one who's stepped up to the plate.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 02:05:22 AM
Quote from: LukieD;51859
So what happens when those nations you refer to DO NOT follow the rule of law? Isn't that the problem we're having? Obama can do plenty behind the scenes, that's the right way to handle it.
 
And no one can convince me that the leader of the free world can't take up an issue of a gross injustice in a foreign country. As for the other issues he has on his plate, it's all about priorities. of course he has many issues to juggle, but many of us want to know where the rights of abducted American children fit in on his priority list. Right now it doesn't seem like it's too high on his list.

Luke the problem is that they are following the rule of law.  Agreed, the Brazilian family should be returning Sean to David on Friday, but they don't have any intention of returning Sean ever.  Marco Aurelio is going to do every thing he can to ensure that Sean does not come home, that is clear.  His BS press release couldn't have been more vague from a legal perspective.  Aurelio did not site a single legal merit to justify his stay order.  Let face reality here, first the stay order in June, now this stay and Tostes is preparing an appeal of the three judge ruling.  The Brazilian family is going to challenge every legal ruling no matter if the appeal has any legal merit or not.  Their goal here is to get Sean in a court to express his wishes so that the judiciary can justify keeping him in Brazil under Article 12 & 13 of the Hague Convention.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: whartn on December 18, 2009, 02:44:51 AM
Pres Obama must boycott the olympics and request other nations like Canada,UK,Australia,et al to do likewise.He must do something including breaking relations w/ Brasil.I supported Pres Obama,but I will never vote for him again.He has no balls to let Lula hide behind separation of powers.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 02:53:34 AM
Quote from: whartn;51870
Pres Obama must boycott the olympics and request other nations like Canada,UK,Australia,et al to do likewise.He must do something including breaking relations w/ Brasil.I supported Pres Obama,but I will never vote for him again.He has no balls to let Lula hide behind separation of powers.

 
Correct me if I'm wrong but your assuming that Obama will be president in 2016, isn't that bit of a stretch?  Furthermore, do you really think that Canada the UK and Australia will boycott the Olympic games over a single Hague Convention custody dispute on behalf of the US?  Let's get real...
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Tunevsk on December 18, 2009, 03:20:13 AM
Quote from: Chicco;51842
Tunevsk,
 
I really liked your idea. In a STF in conflict as the one we have with so many ridiculous things going on alive and public every day in view of the growing animosity, it may not be such a long shot at the end...
 
Could anyone in Brazil do it? Do we need a person to do it or can the person be replaced by a NGO or an association or even someone representing BSH for instance? Does the person has to be Brazilian ?
 
I just want to understand who would need to step in to fill the role Silvana and the PP party played for JPLS case, which explain why is never JPLS filing the HC but someone in his behalf...
 
Depending on the answer and what the laywers do tomorrow we could try to find a suitable candidate.


Habeas corpus is a fundamental constitutional guarantee. Fundamental constitutional rights and guarantees are granted to "Brazilians and Foreigners resident in Brazil" (Federal Constitution, art. 5). Whenever someone not resident in Brazil attempts to file an Habeas Corpus, or a Mandado de Segurança (The Italian Republic, for instance, filed a Mandado de Segurança recently as part of a bundle of cases that were jointly decided in a high profile extratidion battle), then serious doubts arise over the admissibility of the use of the writ. So, it would be best, for the avoidance of such questions, if the plaintiff were a Brazilian citizen, or a foreigner lawfully residing in Brazil.
Title: MARCO AURÉLIO's Habeas Corpus 101.985
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 18, 2009, 06:30:35 AM
Full text: http://www.conjur.com.br/dl/liminar-sean-fique-brasil-ouvido.pdf

PART I:

*******************************
HABEAS CORPUS 101.985 RIO DE JANEIRO
RELATOR
:
MIN. MARCO AURÉLIO
PACTE.(S)
:
S R G
IMPTE.(S)
:
SILVANA BIANCHI CARNEIRO RIBEIRO E OUTRO(A/S)
COATOR(A/S)(ES)
:
SUPERIOR TRIBUNAL DE JUSTIÇA
DECISÃO
CRIANÇA – INTEGRIDADE FÍSICA, PSÍQUICA E MORAL – PERMANÊNCIA OU NÃO NO BRASIL – MANIFESTAÇÃO PRÓPRIA CONTROVERTIDA – PRONUNCIAMENTO JUDICIAL – ENTREGA IMEDIATA NO CONSULADO AMERICANO – POSSIBILIDADE DE REFORMA – HABEAS CORPUS – RELEVÂNCIA DEMONSTRADA - LIMINAR DEFERIDA.
1. A Assessoria, em 15 de dezembro de 2009, prestou as seguintes informações:
Este habeas corpus, com requerimento de liminar, foi impetrado por Silvana Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro em favor do menor S.R.G. A impetrante, avó materna do paciente, informa ser ele filho da brasileira Bruna Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro Lins e Silva com o cidadão norte-americano David Goldman, tendo nascido, em 25 de maio de 2000, no Estado de Nova Jersey, Estados Unidos da América, com registro no Consulado Brasileiro em Nova York e na 1ª Circunscrição do Registro Civil de Pessoas Naturais na Ilha do Governador, Rio de Janeiro, adquirindo, com isso, a nacionalidade brasileira.
Em 2004, Bruna viajou ao Brasil trazendo consigo a criança, com autorização do pai. Aqui,
resolvendo dissolver o vínculo conjugal, ajuizou ação de divórcio. Em meados de 2005, contraiu núpcias com João Paulo Lins e Silva. No dia 21 de agosto de 2008, veio a falecer, depois de dar à luz a C., filha de João Paulo.
Com fundamento em relação de paternidade socioafetiva, em 28 de agosto de 2008, João Paulo Lins e Silva requereu ao Juízo de Direito da 2ª Vara de Família da Comarca do Rio de Janeiro a guarda do menor, o que lhe foi deferido.
Em 26 de setembro de 2008, a União Federal, depois de acionada pela Autoridade Central Administrativa Federal – ACAF, órgão encarregado de fazer observar a Convenção de Haia no Brasil, pleiteou, perante a 16ª Vara da Seção Judiciária do Rio de Janeiro/RJ, a busca, apreensão e restituição do paciente.
Estando em curso duas ações distintas, ambas tratando da guarda do mesmo menor, suscitou-se conflito de competência no Superior Tribunal de Justiça. A Corte declarou competente o Juízo Federal, para onde foram remetidos os autos do processo em tramitação na 2ª Vara de Família da Comarca do Rio de Janeiro/RJ.
O processo de busca, apreensão e restituição do paciente teve regular andamento. Realizou-se perícia visando a estabelecer as condições psicológicas do menor e os impactos decorrentes da eventual transferência de domicílio para os Estados Unidos da América. As partes foram ouvidas e houve gravação de entrevista com o menor. No laudo, ficou consignado, em diversas passagens, que a criança, ao ser indagada sobre a permanência no Brasil ou a mudança para os Estados Unidos da América, teria respondido “tanto faz”, ou seja, pouco lhe importava viver aqui ou lá.
Alegando-se jamais ter sido dita a referida expressão e apontando-se a existência de discrepância e a parcialidade das peritas, impugnaram-se os laudos e requereu-se a oitiva do paciente, para dele colher a opinião a respeito da ida a outro País e, desse modo, sanar a dúvida. O Juízo Federal rejeitou a pretensão, afirmando a confiança na excelência do trabalho desenvolvido pelas técnicas nomeadas.
Contra o mencionado ato foi interposto agravo de instrumento, com pedido de concessão de efeito suspensivo ao recurso. No Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região, o Juiz não acolheu o pleito relacionado ao implemento de efeito suspensivo ao agravo, mas afirmou que a decisão de primeira instância poderia, alfim, ser submetida a amplo controle em segundo grau de jurisdição, estando descaracterizado o risco de grave lesão e de difícil reparação.
Antes do julgamento final do recurso, o Juiz Federal, após a manifestação do Ministério Público Federal, ao proferir sentença favorável ao pai biológico, David Goldman, determinou o “retorno imediato do menor (...) aos Estados Unidos da América”, fixando a data de 3 de junho de 2009 para a apresentação da criança perante o Consulado Americano no Rio de Janeiro, com expedição de mandado de busca e apreensão caso a entrega espontânea não ocorresse.
Contra o referido ato foi formalizado habeas corpus no Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região. Buscou-se a declaração de nulidade da sentença, por não ter sido colhido o depoimento do menor. O pedido foi liminarmente indeferido.
A defesa interpôs agravo regimental, objetivando a sequência do processo. A Quinta Turma daquele Tribunal manteve a decisão.
A seguir, houve a protocolação de recurso ordinário em habeas corpus no Superior Tribunal de Justiça ― de nº 141.593 ― e formalização de habeas corpus no Supremo, autuado sob o nº 99.945/RJ. O Ministro Gilmar Mendes, no período de férias forenses, negou seguimento à impetração, por entender inadequado o habeas ao intento perseguido pela impetrante. Ressaltou que, “ausente hipótese de ilegalidade ou abuso de poder, eventual inconformismo com a sentença (...) deverá ser debatido nas vias ordinárias e pelos meios e recursos previstos na lei processual civil” (folha 325 a 330). Presente essa decisão, a Ministra Nancy Andrighi, relatora do mencionado recurso, em tramitação no Superior Tribunal, julgou prejudicada a pretensão lá deduzida (folha 306).
Segundo alega a impetrante, apesar da interposição do recurso cabível contra a sentença, é efetivo o risco de se remeter o paciente aos Estados Unidos da América em decorrência do julgamento da apelação, a ser realizado amanhã, 16 de dezembro de 2009, pela Quinta Turma do Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região. Reitera, então, a tese da ilegalidade perpetrada pelo Juiz Federal, que indeferiu a colheita do depoimento do menor, considerado o disposto no artigo 13 da Convenção de Haia, no artigo 12 da Convenção sobre os Direitos da Criança e no inciso II do artigo 16 do Estatuto da Criança e do Adolescente. Diz estar em jogo o direito de ir e vir do paciente, razão pela qual se apresenta admissível a impetração, sendo indispensável a providência cautelar ante o fato de a decisão proferida pelo Presidente do Supremo ter sido objeto de agravo regimental, ainda pendente de apreciação.
Pede a concessão de liminar, no sentido de afastar, até o julgamento final desta impetração, o cumprimento da determinação judicial relacionada à entrega do menor (folha 33). No mérito, pleiteia o reconhecimento da ilicitude do citado ato, levando em
conta o fato de não ter sido colhido o depoimento da criança.
Registro que o Agravo Regimental interposto no Habeas Corpus nº 99.945-0/RJ foi encaminhado à residência, com minuta de relatório.
No dia imediato, a Assessoria informou mais uma vez:
Petição/STF nº 142.918/2009
A impetrante requer a juntada da cópia do acórdão proferido pelo Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região na apelação interposta contra a sentença prolatada pelo Juízo da Décima Sexta Vara Federal da Circunscrição Judiciária do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. O Tribunal proveu parcialmente o recurso, mas determinou a entrega do menor ao pai biológico, em 48 horas, sem qualquer transição e em oposição ao que estabelecido no laudo pericial da União e ao contemplado na sentença.
Reitera o pedido de concessão de liminar, por ser agora iminente o risco de dano irreparável ao direito de ir e vir do menor.
O habeas acima mencionado encontra-se na residência, para apreciação do pedido cautelar.
2. A criança, cujo direito de ir e vir, de opinião e expressão, assegurados pela Constituição Federal, pelo Estatuto da Criança e do Adolescente – Lei nº 8.069/90 (ECA) – e pela Convenção sobre os Aspectos Civis do Sequestro Internacional de Crianças, promulgada pelo Decreto nº 3.413, de 14 de abril de 2000, nascida em 25 de maio de 2000, caminha para completar dez anos e revela vida alcançada por desígnios insondáveis. Com autorização paterna, veio com a mãe, Bruna Bianchi Carneiro Ribeiro Lins, para o Brasil aos quatro anos de idade. Os pais separaram-se, ficando o genitor americano nos Estados Unidos. A mãe, brasileira com família neste País, casou-se com João Paulo Lins e Silva e engravidou. No dia 21 de agosto de 2008, depois de mais de quatro anos residindo com o paciente no Brasil, faleceu em decorrência de complicações no parto. A filha, irmã consanguínea materna do paciente, sobreviveu.
Ao lado disso, ocorreu toda sorte de descompassos em relação à guarda, discutindo-se até mesmo a competência judicial para defini-la. Em 11 de fevereiro de 2009, o Ministro Luis Felipe Salomão, no Conflito de
Competência nº 100.345, do Superior Tribunal de Justiça, deferiu liminar para suspender os processos em curso, designando o Juízo Federal da 16ª Vara da Seção Judiciária do Estado do Rio de Janeiro para, em caráter provisório, resolver as questões urgentes. Fixada a da Justiça Federal, deu-se a prolação de sentença em 1º de junho de 2009. Determinou-se a volta da criança aos Estados Unidos da América, para estar no convívio do pai biológico, dispondo-se, inclusive, sobre o período de transição a ser implementado após o deslocamento e a entrega, sob pena de busca e apreensão, até 3 de junho de 2009, às 14h, no Consulado do país de destino na cidade do Rio de Janeiro.
Title: MARCO AURÉLIO's Habeas Corpus 101.985
Post by: BrazilianFriend on December 18, 2009, 06:33:29 AM
Full text: http://www.conjur.com.br/dl/liminar-...sil-ouvido.pdf (http://www.conjur.com.br/dl/liminar-sean-fique-brasil-ouvido.pdf)

 
PART Ii:

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O quadro motivou o ajuizamento da Arguição de Descumprimento de Preceito Fundamental nº 172, da qual fui relator. Nela, deferi a liminar nos seguintes termos:
ARGUIÇÃO DE DESCUMPRIMENTO DE PRECEITO LEGISLATIVO, E 3.413/2000, DA PRESIDÊNCIA DA REPÚBLICA – CONSTITUIÇÃO FEDERAL – TUTELA ANTECIPADA – RETORNO IMEDIATO AOS ESTADOS UNIDOS DA AMÉRICA - AFASTAMENTO.
1. O Partido Progressista – PP formalizou esta arguição de descumprimento de preceito fundamental considerada sentença proferida pelo Juízo da 16ª Vara Federal da Seção Judiciária do Rio de Janeiro no Processo nº 2009.51.01.018422-0, que tem, como autora, a União e, como réu, João Paulo Bagueira Leal Lins e Silva. Fê-lo ante a conclusão sobre o retorno do menor Sean Richard Goldman aos Estados Unidos, implicando a sentença a ordem de busca e apreensão caso, presente a tutela antecipada, o menor não venha a ser apresentado ao Consulado Americano na cidade do Rio de Janeiro, no dia de amanhã, até às 14h.
Consta da inicial:
a) capítulo referente à prevenção considerado o Agravo de Instrumento nº 728.785-8/RJ;
b) exposição da controvérsia em face da Convenção de Haia, do texto constitucional e da situação envolvendo o menor Sean;
c) a viabilidade da arguição de descumprimento de preceito fundamental presente a tutela antecipada;
d) a ocorrência de transgressão à Constituição Federal mediante o ato formalizado pelo Juízo;
e) ser fundamento da República a dignidade da pessoa humana.
Discorre-se sobre o quadro, apontando-se haver prevalecido o interesse político, nas relações internacionais, em vez das garantias constitucionais. Com isso, em plano secundário vieram a ficar, segundo as razões expendidas, a independência nacional e a prevalência dos direitos humanos, mitigando-se o interesse do próprio menor.
Articula-se com o disposto no artigo 3º, cabeça e inciso IV, artigo 4º, cabeça e incisos I e II, artigo 5º, cabeça e incisos X, XI, XV, XLI, XLVII a LI, LIV e LV e § 1º, do Diploma Maior, asseverando-se que, a preponderar a decisão proferida, ficará prejudicado o menor diante da privação da convivência com a irmã e os avós maternos. Alude-se ao direito social à proteção à infância previsto no artigo 6º, cabeça, da Carta da República, evocando-se, mais, o artigo 227 nela contido. Menciona-se lição do saudoso Professor Celso de Albuquerque Mello sobre a obrigação de o Estado proteger os nacionais, buscando-se demonstrar a lesão específica, a lesão concreta, a direitos fundamentais do menor decorrente de ato do poder público.
A peça veicula enfoque considerado o alcance da Constituição Federal, salientando-se a circunstância de, quando da entrevista com sociólogos, o menor haver afirmado preferir morar neste País. Pretende-se revelar a percepção da criança, hoje com nove anos, e a permanência no Brasil por quase cinco anos. Cita-se como precedente o Habeas Corpus nº 31.449-DF, no qual foi designado redator para o acórdão o Ministro Teori Albino Zavascki, deixando-se ressaltado o dever de resguardar os interesses da criança, isso presente a interpretação sistemática da Convenção de Haia e da Lei Fundamental. No mesmo sentido é feita referência ao desprovimento do Recurso Especial nº 900.262/RJ, relatora Ministra Nancy Andrighi, registrando a ementa, em cautelar a envolver o próprio menor Sean, o fato de a Convenção de Haia possuir o viés do interesse prevalente do menor no que voltada a proteger crianças quanto a condutas ilícitas. Aborda-se a necessidade de ponderarem-se princípios – o da cooperação internacional e os relativos aos direitos fundamentais –, vindo-se a interpretar a Convenção de Haia em conformidade com o texto constitucional.
Sob o ângulo da liminar, após se dizer da relevância do pedido e do risco de manter-se com plena eficácia o quadro, aponta-se o caráter irreversível do alcance da tutela antecipada, com prejuízo para a formação psicossocial do menor. Afirma-se a existência de quadro assemelhado ao
sequestro que a Convenção de Haia busca impedir. O pleito de concessão de medida acauteladora visa a sustar a eficácia da sentença prolatada bem como de qualquer ato ou pronunciamento judicial a implicar a observação da Convenção de Haia e a contrariedade à vontade e aos interesses do menor, reconhecendo-se, alfim, a prevalência do direito fundamental deste de ver respeitada a vontade de permanecer no Brasil.
A petição inicial veio subscrita pelo Presidente do Diretório Nacional do Partido Progressista — PP, Senador Francisco Dornelles, e pelo profissional da advocacia Herman Barbosa. O processo deu entrada no Gabinete no dia de hoje, às 18h08 (folha 175). À folha 176, formalizei a seguinte decisão:
1. Segue em fita magnética a fundamentação deste ato.
2. A sentença proferida revela ordem de apresentação de criança, ao Consulado Americano na cidade do Rio de Janeiro, para encaminhamento aos Estados Unidos da América, com a maior brevidade possível, no dia de amanhã – quarta-feira, 3 de junho de 2009, até às 14 horas.
3. Aciono, ante a exiguidade de tempo, o artigo 5º, § 1º, da Lei 9882/99 e suspendo a eficácia da sentença proferida, no processo 2009.51.01.018422-0 do Juízo da 16ª Vara Federal do Rio de Janeiro.
4. Providenciem as comunicações cabíveis.
Brasília, Gabinete do Supremo, 2 de junho de 2009 – 20h30.
2. Dispõe a Constituição Federal ser dever da família, da sociedade e do Estado assegurar à criança e ao adolescente, com absoluta prioridade, o direito à vida, à saúde, à alimentação, à educação, ao lazer, à profissionalização, à cultura, à dignidade, ao respeito, à liberdade e à convivência familiar e comunitária, além de colocá-los a salvo de toda forma de negligência, discriminação, exploração, violência, crueldade e opressão – artigo 227.
Sob o aspecto da dignidade do menor, a Segunda Turma do Tribunal concedeu, em 30 de junho de 1992, ordem no Habeas Corpus nº 69.303-2/MG — no qual fui designado redator para o acórdão, publicado no Diário da Justiça de 20 de novembro de 1992 —, assentando que, em idade viabilizadora de compreensão suficiente dos conturbados caminhos da vida, assiste ao menor o direito de ser ouvido e de ter as opiniões levadas em conta quanto à permanência neste ou
naquele lugar, neste ou naquele meio familiar, e, por consequência, de continuar na companhia deste ou daquele ascendente, se inexistirem motivos morais que afastem a razoabilidade da definição. Consignou-se configurar constrangimento ilegal a determinação de, peremptoriamente, como se coisa fosse, voltar o menor a determinada localidade, objetivando a permanência sob a guarda de um dos pais. Constou da ementa que o direito à guarda não se sobrepõe ao dever do próprio titular de preservar a formação do menor que a letra do artigo 227 da Constituição Federal tem como alvo prioritário. Então, a ordem foi concedida para emprestar à manifestação de vontade dos menores envolvidos efeito maior, sobrepujando a definição da guarda, que sempre possui color relativo e, por isso mesmo, passível de ser modificada tão logo as circunstâncias reinantes reclamem.
Pois bem, o fato de cuidar-se de criança de nove anos que mora no Brasil – trazida pela genitora, falecida após parto — há praticamente cinco anos, a completarem-se em 16 do corrente mês, a qual revelou o desejo de ficar com a família materna, indica a relevância da articulação, estando o risco de manter-se o quadro decisório, presente a tutela antecipada para a entrega do menor, até às 14h de amanhã, no Consulado Americano na cidade do Rio de Janeiro, não na irreversibilidade de encaminhamento imediato aos Estados Unidos da América, mas nas repercussões psicossociais que as idas e vindas podem ocasionar. De qualquer forma, o poder de cautela ínsito ao Judiciário, além de visar ao afastamento de lesão a direito fundamental, tem como base garantir campo propício à concretude de eventual pronunciamento do Supremo favorável ao pedido formulado.
Se, de um lado, veio o Juízo a formalizar tutela antecipada com a imediatidade vista, fazendo-o para observação após 48 horas do julgamento da ação de busca e apreensão, de outro, com maior fundamento, impõe-se, no âmbito do Supremo, providência que viabilize a manutenção do menor no seio da família onde se encontra há praticamente cinco anos para, no exame final desta arguição de descumprimento de preceito fundamental, dizer-se da procedência, ou não, do que asseverado quanto à impossibilidade de potencializar-se o que previsto na Convenção de Haia, de 25 de outubro de 1980, aprovada mediante o Decreto Legislativo nº 79/99 e promulgada pelo Decreto da Presidência da República nº 3.413, de 14 de abril de 2000. Vale notar que o objetivo maior do entendimento entre os países não é outro senão preservar o interesse do menor presente a respectiva formação. Contando a discussão sobre a guarda com cinco anos e com pronunciamentos favoráveis, inclusive do Superior Tribunal de Justiça, à permanência do menor no Brasil, não haverá prejuízo algum se prevalecer a manifestação da criança de continuar com a família brasileira, o que, aliás, autoriza, ante a própria Convenção de Haia, conclusão no sentido de afastar-se
o retorno à origem – artigo 13, letra “b”, parte final -, tudo isso visando ao crivo da mais alta Corte do País no tocante ao alegado conflito entre o ato formalizado pelo Juízo e os ditames constitucionais.
3. Sem adentrar, por ora, o acerto ou o desacerto da longa e cuidadosa sentença proferida pelo Juízo – de 82 laudas – considerados preceitos fundamentais da Constituição Federal e até mesmo o enquadramento do caso nas exceções contempladas na referida Convenção de Haia, defiro a liminar pleiteada. Suspendo, submetendo este ato ao Plenário, a eficácia da aludida sentença.
4. Deem conhecimento desta decisão aos envolvidos no Processo nº 2009.51.01.018422-0, da 16ª Vara Federal do Rio de Janeiro. Colham, após possíveis manifestações dos interessados, o parecer do Procurador-Geral da República.
5. Imprimam preferência ao trânsito desta arguição, visando, em prazo razoável, ao julgamento final do Plenário.
6. Publiquem.
Brasília, Gabinete do Supremo, 2 de junho de 2009, às 20h30.
Ao submeter a decisão ao Plenário, pronunciei-me pela inadequação da medida, sendo acompanhado pelos integrantes da Corte. A essa altura, já havia providência do Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região mantendo o menor no Brasil até o julgamento do recurso cabível contra a sentença ― a apelação ―, o qual, conforme consta do relato elaborado pela Assessoria, foi desprovido. Na oportunidade, ficou afastado o período de transição previsto em sentença e determinada a entrega da criança. Novamente, consignou-se a busca e apreensão, com acionamento da Polícia Federal, da Rodoviária Federal e da Militar do Estado do Rio de Janeiro, caso o menor não seja apresentado espontaneamente ao Consulado americano existente na cidade maravilhosa. Assinou-se prazo em horas ― 48. A situação mostra-se emergencial, a ditar, em face da relevância do que articulado e do risco a saltar aos olhos, a concessão de liminar.
Sob o ângulo da adequação da via eleita, reporto-me ao que assentado no julgamento do Habeas Corpus nº 69.303-2/MG:
HABEAS-CORPUS – A CRIANÇA E O ADOLESCENTE – PERTINÊNCIA. À família, à sociedade e ao Estado, a Carta de 1988 impõe o dever de assegurar, com prioridade, à criança e ao adolescente, o direito à vida, à saúde, à alimentação, à educação, ao lazer, à profissionalização, à cultura, à dignidade, ao respeito, à liberdade e à convivência familiar e comunitária, e de colocá-los a salvo de toda forma de negligência, discriminação, exploração, violência, crueldade e opressão – artigo 227. As paixões condenáveis dos genitores, decorrentes do término litigioso da sociedade conjugal, não podem envolver os filhos menores, com prejuízo dos valores que lhes são assegurados constitucionalmente. Em idade viabilizadora de razoável compreensão dos conturbados caminhos da vida, assiste-lhes o direito de serem ouvidos e de terem as opiniões consideradas quanto à permanência nesta ou naquela localidade, neste ou naquele meio familiar, alfim e, por conseqüência, de permanecerem na companhia deste ou daquele ascendente, uma vez inexistam motivos morais que afastem a razoabilidade da definição. Configura constrangimento ilegal a determinação no sentido de, peremptoriamente, como se coisas fossem, voltarem a determinada localidade, objetivando a permanência sob a guarda de um dos pais. O direito a esta não se sobrepõe ao dever que o próprio titular tem de preservar a formação do menor, que a letra do artigo 227 da Constituição Federal tem como alvo prioritário. Concede-se a ordem para emprestar à manifestação de vontade dos menores – de permanecerem na residência dos avós maternos e na companhia destes e da própria mãe – eficácia maior, sobrepujando a definição da guarda que sempre tem color relativo e, por isso mesmo, possível de ser modificada tão logo as circunstâncias reinantes reclamem. (Segunda Turma – redator para o acórdão, Ministro Marco Aurélio, publicado no Diário da Justiça de 20 de novembro de 1992).
Pende de exame na Primeira Turma, em razão de agravos regimentais interpostos, o Habeas Corpus nº 99.945/RJ, formalizado contra ato do Superior Tribunal de Justiça em idêntica medida – de nº 141.593/RJ –, que veio a ser declarada prejudicada ante manifestação da Presidência do Supremo, nas últimas férias de julho, assentando a impropriedade do pedido. Mais: o acórdão proferido por força da apelação está sujeito a recurso.
A esses dados soma-se a problemática de a espécie envolver criança que, em momento algum, foi ouvida, diretamente, por órgão investido do ofício judicante, apesar da insistência da defesa em alcançar esse objetivo. Faz-se em jogo uma vida em plena formação. Fazem-se em jogo o direito de ir e vir, o direito de opinião e expressão bem como a dignidade humana, assegurados, repito, pela Constituição Federal, pela Lei nº 8.069/90 – Estatuto da
Criança e do Adolescente -, e pela própria Convenção referida no que voltada à proteção da criança e do adolescente, glosando, de modo peremptório, é certo, sequestro internacional de crianças, o que não se verificou, conforme se depreende do quadro retratado neste processo, no caso, ainda pendente de decisão definitiva.
Está em jogo o crivo do Supremo, porquanto ainda não ocorreu o exame de habeas corpus por meio do qual se busca garantir o direito de a própria criança, de início em idade suficiente para fazê-lo, pronunciar-se quanto ao retorno aos Estados Unidos, passados mais de cinco anos de convivência com a família brasileira, ou à permanência no Brasil considerado o ambiente de formação. Nesse aspecto, vale frisar que até mesmo a Convenção que serviu de base ao pedido julgado pela Justiça Federal prevê a manifestação da criança e a recusa à entrega quando essa deixar de ser compatível com os princípios fundamentais do Estado requerido ligados à proteção dos direitos humanos e das liberdades fundamentais – artigos 13 e 20.
A toda evidência, cumpre marchar, em prol do paciente, sem açodamento, aguardando-se o julgamento do Habeas Corpus nº 99.945/RJ, ainda em curso nesta Corte e anterior a este.
3. Defiro a liminar para manter, por ora, a situação fática de permanência do menor no País. Afasto, assim, a eficácia do acórdão proferido pelo Tribunal Regional Federal da 2ª Região na Apelação Cível nº 2008.51.01.018422-0, do qual resulta a ordem peremptória de entrega do paciente ao Consulado americano na cidade do Rio de Janeiro em 48 horas.
4. Apensem este processo ao do Habeas Corpus nº 99.945/RJ.
5. Colham o parecer da Procuradoria Geral da República.
6. Publiquem.
Brasília – residência –, 17 de dezembro de 2009, às 8h15.
Ministro MARCO AURÉLIO
Relator
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: jl2saint on December 18, 2009, 06:43:21 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51869
Luke the problem is that they are following the rule of law. Agreed, the Brazilian family should be returning Sean to David on Friday, but they don't have any intention of returning Sean ever. Marco Aurelio is going to do every thing he can to ensure that Sean does not come home, that is clear. His BS press release couldn't have been more vague from a legal perspective. Aurelio did not site a single legal merit to justify his stay order. Let face reality here, first the stay order in June, now this stay and Tostes is preparing an appeal of the three judge ruling. The Brazilian family is going to challenge every legal ruling no matter if the appeal has any legal merit or not. Their goal here is to get Sean in a court to express his wishes so that the judiciary can justify keeping him in Brazil under Article 12 & 13 of the Hague Convention.

I agree Chop but have one question............

How on God's green earth can the words of a 9 year old boy who court documents show has been abused mentally carry ANY weight w/ a judge? I am not a judge and not anywhere close to a legal expert and I can see that's just plain stupid..........

I guess it comes back to money and corruption. And I agree that Sean will never come home if we leave it up to the Brazilian judiciary. That system is too broken for us to negotiate. We are going to need our government to step in.........somehow...... ....and demand Seans return........:mad2:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: jl2saint on December 18, 2009, 06:53:23 AM
Quote from: LukieD;51856
Malalves is right:
"Lula will only care about this situation if he is subjected to pressure by the USA."
 
Well they could start by summoning the Brazilian Ambassador to the White House where they could read him the riot act about the BS going on in his country's court system and the damage it is doing to a young American child. That's probably a pretty good place to start. Many of us here at BSH have been saying for a long time that after Obama and Clinton agreed to take personal interest in this case and "discuss" it with their Brazilian counterparts that they are now on the hook for their lack of true commitment to seeing this resolved properly. I've thought all along that they were mistaken to mention the case once or twice and to assume that the Brazilians would somehow get the message that the US was serious about this case. Plenty more the SOS and President could be doing here, trust me. It's just a matter of whether or not they feel like creating a diplomatic incident over this. The question is will they stick their neck out, do their jobs, for the sake of David & Sean and the other LBPS (and their kids) whose hopes rest squarely on the outcome of this case?
 
SOS Clinton looks silly with that statement she put out because Justice Aurelio de Mello just basically laughed in her face and told her where she can stick it. And sadly that reflects poorly on the entire country of Brazil. And before anyone says that Lula can't interfere in an independent judiciary, the executive branch responsible for treaty compliance could find a way to make an executive order sending Sean home, especially now that two courts have ordered that to happen.

Agreed Lukie..............

I keep coming back to a few things that I heard a long time ago:

1) Brazil views the U S as a paper tiger.
2) Sean will never come home via the Brazilian judiciary.

It WILL TAKE action by our government to pressure Brazil to return Sean. And while "some" of the judiciary has gone by the rule of law there are too many loopholes, "friends" who are judges, and stall tactics allowed for us to negotiate that system..............

I'm convinced now more than ever............:mad2:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: tstravis on December 18, 2009, 09:25:58 AM
Quote

The legal system in Brazil is so totally corrupt and stops just short of being a banana republic.

stops just short????
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: sue on December 18, 2009, 10:01:32 AM
Is there a hearing today?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Jessica on December 18, 2009, 10:05:57 AM
Just saw an update on The Today show. They are trying to get a hearing today and hopefully reunite next week.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: sue on December 18, 2009, 10:14:17 AM
This has got to be an embarrassment for Brazil.  I sure hope they do the right thing today and send Sean home with David.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: LukieD on December 18, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51869
Luke the problem is that they are following the rule of law. Agreed, the Brazilian family should be returning Sean to David on Friday, but they don't have any intention of returning Sean ever. Marco Aurelio is going to do every thing he can to ensure that Sean does not come home, that is clear. His BS press release couldn't have been more vague from a legal perspective. Aurelio did not site a single legal merit to justify his stay order. Let face reality here, first the stay order in June, now this stay and Tostes is preparing an appeal of the three judge ruling. The Brazilian family is going to challenge every legal ruling no matter if the appeal has any legal merit or not. Their goal here is to get Sean in a court to express his wishes so that the judiciary can justify keeping him in Brazil under Article 12 & 13 of the Hague Convention.

I don't disagree with your points chopchop. But what i will say is that the ONLY way, in my opinion, to get this case resolved "swiftly," is EXACTLY what Senator Lautenberg proposed this morning, namely trade sanctions. Hurting them in the wallet is the only way to force compliance, just ask Chris Smith about it, and that man knows what he's talking about. Look at Smith's bill on human trafficking --a huge success by any measure, and the reason is simple: countries which ignore the rule of law pay a financial price. Otherwise, profits trump human rights any day of the week. We've seen this movie before!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bree on December 18, 2009, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51871
Correct me if I'm wrong but your assuming that Obama will be president in 2016, isn't that bit of a stretch? Furthermore, do you really think that Canada the UK and Australia will boycott the Olympic games over a single Hague Convention custody dispute on behalf of the US? Let's get real...

Chop - no disrespect, but this is not a custody dispute; it is a child abduction case. Also, there are far more than "a single" case. There are more than 50 other US cases in Brazil alone. IMHO, Canada should join forces with the US on this. If you feel otherwise, perhaps you should seek comment from Francois Larivee (Canadia). There are cases from Australia too with children being held hostage in Brazil. So, yes, I can see where Canada and Australia could potentially join with the US in this.
 
ETA: I took the following from a post by TWeinstein:
http://www.bringseanhome.org/forum/showpost.php?p=51882&postcount=24
 
Here are some stats:
  • Myself (Tim Weinstein) - 3 1/2 years without ruling
  • Kelvin Birotte - 3 1/2 years without ruling
  • Ariel Ayubo - 5 1/2 years without ruling
  • Marty Pate - 5 1/2 years (negative ruling). Ran out of money to appeal.
  • Francois Larivee- 5 1/2 years. 2 appeals wins. Child still in Brazil
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: whartn on December 18, 2009, 10:50:54 AM
The only way to win in Brazil is for Pres Obama to tell Lula in strong terms--stop the BS.While we wait to hear from the court today Lula could make it happen.I see a Pres of a great country being coned by a ignorant opportunist.
Bush did nothing.The situation was different--no public awareness.I am no fan of Bush and never voted for him,but he took care of a bully in Iraq.This Pres has done nothing about an ignorant bully in SA.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 10:56:18 AM
Quote from: LukieD;51975
I don't disagree with your points chopchop. But what i will say is that the ONLY way, in my opinion, to get this case resolved "swiftly," is EXACTLY what Senator Lautenberg proposed this morning, namely trade sanctions. Hurting them in the wallet is the only way to force compliance, just ask Chris Smith about it, and that man knows what he's talking about. Look at Smith's bill on human trafficking --a huge success by any measure, and the reason is simple: countries which ignore the rule of law pay a financial price. Otherwise, profits trump human rights any day of the week. We've seen this movie before!

Luke I agree with you and I do not support the Brazilian family in any way. Clearly what they are doing is using their money, power and influence to thumb their noses at the HC treaty agreement and abuse the Brazilian rule of law. However, I just don't believe that our Congress or President can come together to save this child. Hell, the democrats hold the house & senate and the presidency and they still can't get anything acomplished, heathcare anyone? Bob even intimated that partisan politics is the central force preventing progress with Davids case here at home. Clearly the Brazilian judical system is corrupt and what I find amazing is that no one is calling them out on it...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: greg4sean on December 18, 2009, 11:02:23 AM
We still have lots of Guest showing up on BSH and I say welcome. As you will find here we have lots of discussions about International Child Abductions, sometimes heated. Please read David’s story and check out Other Abduction Cases link on the main page of the Forum and then please write and call your Congressman or Congresswoman today and every day and push them to pass. H.R. 3240. To any fellow Texan guests here today remember our history and think of how Stephen Austin and Sam Houston would handle this and push our Congressional delegation to work and pass H.R. 3240!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: BEJ_Mom on December 18, 2009, 11:02:31 AM
OK, I am new, but I have been through my own US custody battles.
 
What I can't understand is what does this latest stay have to do with custody? The custodial parent in Brazil didn't even file this & isn't living with the child! I understand they want Sean to be heard in Brazil. Why can't they turn him over to David as the judges ordered. He can be with him 24 hours a day until they get ready to make a decision on if Sean can be heard. (not that David should stay in Brazil all that time, but...) Why should the abductors keep him to abuse him further? Couldn't David, or a judge appoint a guardian until a decision is made? (& not that this matters as the case shouldn't even be a Brazilian custody case. Custody should be heard in US!)
 
If Sean wants to speak why can't he speak in the US? I thought the idea of Sean needing to have a voice was already discussed & denied a few times. Don't they need to present new information to proceed? If the child has an opinion, why wouldn't it be his 4 year old opinion? (not saying this is a good idea, but...) The opinion Sean had at the time of abduction & not after 5 years of abuse?
 
I wish David & his family peace & joy.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 11:04:45 AM
Quote from: Bree;51978
Chop - no disrespect, but this is not a custody dispute; it is a child abduction case. Also, there are far more than "a single" case. There are more than 50 other US cases in Brazil alone. IMHO, Canada should join forces with the US on this. If you feel otherwise, perhaps you should seek comment from Francois Larivee (Canadia). There are cases from Australia too with children being held hostage in Brazil. So, yes, I can see where Canada and Australia could potentially join with the US in this.
 
ETA: I took the following from a post by TWeinstein:
http://www.bringseanhome.org/forum/showpost.php?p=51882&postcount=24
 
 
 

Here are some stats:
  • Myself (Tim Weinstein) - 3 1/2 years without ruling
  • Kelvin Birotte - 3 1/2 years without ruling
  • Ariel Ayubo - 5 1/2 years without ruling
  • Marty Pate - 5 1/2 years (negative ruling). Ran out of money to appeal.
  • Francois Larivee- 5 1/2 years. 2 appeals wins. Child still in Brazil

Bree you are making my case. Look I'm not playing devils advocate against David or BSH or any LBP. I am simply pointing out that our government and other governments do not seem to have the political will to impose any serious conseqences on the offending country. Clearly the fact that this case and others have gone on so long proves my point. I agree that there are many other cases that are as bad or worse than David's and the fact that virtually none of them are in the media is proof that our government and other governments just don't care enough to do much about it. Let's be real here if BSH, NBC and congressmen Smith hadn't taken up David's cause he wouldn't even be in the news here in the US.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bree on December 18, 2009, 11:15:00 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51992
Bree you are making my case. Look I'm not playing devils advocate against David or BSH or any LBP. I am simply pointing out that our government and other governments do not seem to have the political will to impose any serious conseqences to the offending country. Clearly the fact that this case and others have gone on so long proves my point. I agree that there are many other cases that are as bad or worse than David's and the fact that virtually none of them are in the media is proof that our government and other governments just don't care enough to do much about it. Let's be real here if BSH, NBC and congressmen Smith hadn't taken up David's cause he wouldn't even be in the news here in the US.

The US and other governments may not have taken a stand in the past, but today is a new day and NOW is the time that they come together to do so. The fact that this case and so many others have gone on so long is because no one has taken this matter seriously, not even the DOS whose job it is to do so.
 
I am being real here. If it weren't for BSH, NBC and Congressman Smith (my hero at this point), you are correct, this wouldn't be in the media. But, the fact is, it is NOW in the media so let's take it from here and FINALLY do what is right. Let's force the hands of our representatives, and those from the other countries who have LBPs, to do the right thing once and for all. Afterall, they are there to represent the wishes/needs/desires of the people, and that includes Sean Goldman and all the other abducted children.
 
And, Hillary, I'm not talking about a press release to play "patty-cake" with Brazil. STAND UP AND BE HEARD! Take some action and make it happen! Enough of the nicety-nicety. :mad2:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: LukieD on December 18, 2009, 11:17:51 AM
Quote from: chopchop;51986
Luke I agree with you and I do not support the Brazilian family in any way. Clearly what they are doing is using their money, power and influence to thumb their noses at the HC treaty agreement and abuse the Brazilian rule of law. However, I just don't believe that our Congress or President can come together to save this child. Hell, the democrats hold the house & senate and the presidency and they still can't get anything acomplished, heathcare anyone? Bob even intimated that partisan politics is the central force preventing progress with Davids case here at home. Clearly the Brazilian judical system is corrupt and what I find amazing is that no one is calling them out on it...

It would be better if the outrage about this case from inside Brazil, not only the US. I think we can all agree on that. As much as I love all the great Brazilians with common sense and decency who have spoken out and are outraged over this case, I do not expect a similar grass-roots movement in Brazil to send Sean home. The general public seems resigned to their fate at the hands of a woefully inadequate and corrupt judicial system. In the US, we take to the streets when we're angry, I can only hope that we will see that in Brazil but I must admit I am not optimistic.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: UD_student on December 18, 2009, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: BEJ_Mom;51991
What I can't understand is what does this latest stay have to do with custody? NOTHING, it is a delay tactic until the dark side can file an appeal through other channels in the Brazilian court system. The custodial parent in Brazil didn't even file this & isn't living with the child! I understand they want Sean to be heard in Brazil. Sean has been heard by three court appointed psychologists who all agreed Sean is suffering from parental alienation and is further harmed each day he is apart from his father. Why can't they turn him over to David as the judges ordered. He can be with him 24 hours a day until they get ready to make a decision on if Sean can be heard. (not that David should stay in Brazil all that time, but...) They appealed (and got a stay) against Judge Pinto's second ruling (June 16) that Sean would be with his father for 6/7 days. [See Media and Documents link for full text of rulings June 1 and June 16] Why should the abductors keep him to abuse him further? Couldn't David, or a judge appoint a guardian until a decision is made? (& not that this matters as the case shouldn't even be a Brazilian custody case. Custody should be heard in US!) As this is a Hague Convention case it does not have anything yet to do with custody, it simply is deciding where the child's country of habitation is to return the child there for the court system in that country to determine custody. The Left Behind Parent (http://bringseanhome.org/wordpress/?page_id=62) is a section of the blog that includes important aspects to consider with international child abduction including The Hague Convention Brazilian Style (http://bringseanhome.org/wordpress/?page_id=69). Timothy Weinstein (TWeinstein), who wrote many of those articles, is a left behind parent whose children have been illegally retained in Brazil since Summer 2006.
 
If Sean wants to speak why can't he speak in the US? I thought the idea of Sean needing to have a voice was already discussed & denied a few times. YES! Don't they need to present new information to proceed? The Brazilian court system doesn't require that in a Habeus Corpus appeal to the best of my information [Roger, Tunevsk, and Andre Felipe are experts in that area]. If the child has an opinion, why wouldn't it be his 4 year old opinion? (not saying this is a good idea, but...) The opinion Sean had at the time of abduction & not after 5 years of abuse? Well, that is what the psychologists decided who examined Sean and we have raised multiple times that clearly Sean had an opinion when he was abducted and it was ignored.
 

Welcome to the BSH forums!!

I hope this information helps explain some things!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: LDJVR on December 18, 2009, 11:30:43 AM
Quote from: LukieD;52001
It would be better if the outrage about this case from inside Brazil, not only the US. I think we can all agree on that. As much as I love all the great Brazilians with common sense and decency who have spoken out and are outraged over this case, I do not expect a similar grass-roots movement in Brazil to send Sean home. The general public seems resigned to their fate at the hands of a woefully inadequate and corrupt judicial system. In the US, we take to the streets when we're angry, I can only hope that we will see that in Brazil but I must admit I am not optimistic.

 
Exactly!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 11:42:12 AM
Quote from: LukieD;52001
It would be better if the outrage about this case from inside Brazil, not only the US. I think we can all agree on that. As much as I love all the great Brazilians with common sense and decency who have spoken out and are outraged over this case, I do not expect a similar grass-roots movement in Brazil to send Sean home. The general public seems resigned to their fate at the hands of a woefully inadequate and corrupt judicial system. In the US, we take to the streets when we're angry, I can only hope that we will see that in Brazil but I must admit I am not optimistic.

Luke what you say about the Brazilian people is true. Once they know the truth they are overwhelmingly in support of returning Sean home. However, we are dealing with the same corrupt judiciary that they are and that is the only reason this case is at the absurd place it stands today. The Hague convention assumes and has to assume that the cosignators will act in good faith. When that good faith turns into self interest (Marco Auelio) then you have what David and all the other LBP have, which is a total breakdown of the intended outcome of the Hague.
 
What I am trying to hammer home to everyone is the reality that our expectations don't mean a thing to these shameless individuals who's sole efforts are to subvert the entire essence of what the Hague Convention stands for, returning the child to his/her state of habitual residence to prevent parental alienation. I think that we here in the states are so used to anyone having a fair shot in a court of law that we are dumbfounded and shocked when we have to deal with a nation where the law is really not intended to serve the common good.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 18, 2009, 11:55:49 AM
I recall reading an article (by a Brazilian law professor) that said rich Brazilians don't obey the law because it is basically beneath them to do so. It sounded like the law is considered to be for the "little people" - for wealthy Brazilians to obey the law would signify that you don't have status or connections. We saw a very real manifestation of that mindset yesterday with MA's ruling and not for the first time either. It also explains their condescension towards David.
 
What I found more surprising is it suggested something to the effect that a poor Brazilian would say that anyone rich who chose to obey the law is a fool, i.e. they have other options. So it seems like even the less advantaged have bought into this notion of privilege and different standards for the upper class, which is sad.
 
This prof. is highly critical of many aspects of the Brazilian judicial system.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 12:03:26 PM
Quote from: Lexi;52013
I recall reading an article (by a Brazilian law professor) that said rich Brazilians don't obey the law because it is basically beneath them to do so. It sounded like the law is considered to be for the "little people" - for wealthy Brazilians to obey the law would signify that you don't have status or connections. We saw a very real manifestation of that mindset yesterday with MA's ruling and not for the first time either. It also explains their condescension towards David.
 
What I found more surprising is it suggested something to the effect that a poor Brazilian would say that anyone rich who chose to obey the law is a fool, i.e. they have other options. So it seems like even the less advantaged have bought into this notion of privilege and different standards for the upper class, which is sad.
 
This prof. is highly critical of many aspects of the Brazilian judicial system.

I like how Mark Twain put it in "The Mysterious Stranger".  "The rich don't care for anybody but themselves; it's only the poor that have feeling for the poor, and help them".  Sad but so damn true...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Kerry on December 18, 2009, 12:10:01 PM
So far we have had nothing but "cheap talk" from our government officials - bar Congressman Chris Smith who is the only person to put his heartfelt words into action.
We can forget about Obama or Hillary or anyone else in government - they would only step up to the plate and do what is right, effectively, if they were directly impacted.

Talk is cheap and ineffective.


In America if someone does not meet expectations they are hit in the pocket......eg: Tiger Woods and his sponsors that are parting company.

I feel our next concerted campaign should be hitting American companies that import items from Brazil, and there are thousands of them, big and small.
(just google this and you will be shocked at the amount of imports we get from Brazil).

We should let these companies know that we are not happy with them trading with a country that "cow tows" to kidnappers of American children, and actually protects them with a corrupt judiciary.

Yes, maybe one has nothing to do with the other, (you might say), but if we let them know our objections, the reason for our objections, and  actually boycott their products, they will think twice.

Once Brazil has been hit hard in her pockets, (and I mean hard), you will get an entirely different attitude from Lula et al.

We have had this discussion before on this board, and I know there were objections put forth about boycotting Brazilian imports, but nothing else has worked effectively so far.

David is still without Sean, other LBP are still without their respective kids,  and it seems these kidnappers will do everything they can with the blessing of the judiciary in their pocket, to keep father and son apart.


To do the same over and over as we have been doing, and get no definitive results, I think it time for a new avenue of assault.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 12:18:08 PM
Even with the eyes of the entire world upon them, the Brazilian family continues to act as if they have a legitimate legal claim to prevent Sean from reuniting with his BIOLOGICAL FATHER, completely and utterly ridiculous. The notion, even the assertion, that Brazilian family law could in anyway codify this unbelievable concept is beyond comprehension, yet they continue.
 
To me this is very telling and the prospects do not bode well for this case. I don't think we should kid ourselves about this fact. The family has home court advantage and they intend to hold on to the ball and run out the clock under the protection of a corrupt Brazilian supreme court justice and Article 12 & 13 of the Hague convention treaty.

I really don't think that imposing sanctions or any other penalties will persuade a different outcome because in the real world money is everything...
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Chicco on December 18, 2009, 12:23:52 PM
Not sure if this was already posted but G1 is confirming David will appeal to STF next week hoping to reverse yesterday decision. I can´t translate now but link is below:
 
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Rio/0,,MUL1419999-5606,00-ADVOGADOS+DE+PAI+BIOLOGICO+DE+SEAN+VAO+RECORRER+DA+DECISAO+DO+STF.html
 
Let´s cross our fingers again. Who knows we strike them with the same weapon they used to hold justice from being done. rgds,
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: M.Capestro on December 18, 2009, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: Chicco;52029
Not sure if this was already posted but G1 is confirming David will appeal to STF next week hoping to reverse yesterday decision. I can´t translate now but link is below:
 
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Rio/0,,MUL1419999-5606,00-ADVOGADOS+DE+PAI+BIOLOGICO+DE+SEAN+VAO+RECORRER+DA+DECISAO+DO+STF.html
 
Let´s cross our fingers again. Who knows we strike them with the same weapon they used to hold justice from being done. rgds,

 
Google Translation posted in news thread: http://bringseanhome.org/forum/showpost.php?p=52039&postcount=50
Title: Re: 30 more minutes!
Post by: Wendy on December 18, 2009, 12:56:45 PM
Quote from: Tunevsk;51763
As I read your message, its 23:36 here in Rio, and I drank an excessive amount of sake tonight, and I am very tired, in part because of the massive disappointment over today's ruling.
 
But I say this to you: at some point, I started to think about a crazy legal strategy that would copy the methods of JPLS.
 
And I reached the conclusion that someone who was in touch with David's legal team, but who was not part of that team, should file an HC before the Supreme Court AGAINST JUSTICE MARCO AURÉLIO.
 
I mean, today's HC, in which MA granted injunction, was filed against a Court of Law (the Superior Court of Justice, STJ). It is also possible to file an HC against Marco Aurélio himself.
 
Of course, as the defendant of that HC, he wouldn't be able to act as a judge, which means that he wouldn't be rapporteur and wouldn't have a vote.
 
Given the principle of universal standing that applies to HCs in Brazilian law, anyone could file an HC on Sean's behalf, arguing that Sean's movement is being impeded because his return to America, ordered by two Courts of law, is being illegaly blocked.
 
It would be complex but possible, to show that MA's ruling, issued today, is illegal, as it contradicts the case law of STF. Someone linked to David's defense should draft the HC.
 
If the HC is filed during the recess, President Gilmar Mendes, who is no friend of Marco Aurélio, would decide the HC. And he could even grant an injunction to deprive MA's ruling of effects.
 
Alll this is a very long shot, because Mendes probably wouldn't accept the use of the HC for that purpose; but he could decide to counter-strike Marco Aurélio with the same tools he used. After all, Mendes is all for compliance with the Hague Convention.

This seems like a fantastic idea (from my totally untrained legally speaking mind!)...is this really plausible???
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 18, 2009, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: chopchop;52017
I like how Mark Twain put it in "The Mysterious Stranger". "The rich don't care for anybody but themselves; it's only the poor that have feeling for the poor, and help them". Sad but so damn true...

Yes for the most part, unfortunately.
 
Quote from: lbl;52019
I have the same problem with tmy ex and her family.... If you have money you don't care about the law in Brazil ... YOU MAKE IT!

That about sums it up. Good luck in your situation.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Mark989 on December 18, 2009, 01:08:35 PM
I recall reading an article (by a Brazilian law professor) that said rich Brazilians don't obey the law because it is basically beneath them to do so. It sounded like the law is considered to be for the "little people" - for wealthy Brazilians to obey the law would signify that you don't have status or connections. We saw a very real manifestation of that mindset yesterday with MA's ruling and not for the first time either. It also explains their condescension towards David.

What I found more surprising is it suggested something to the effect that a poor Brazilian would say that anyone rich who chose to obey the law is a fool, i.e. they have other options. So it seems like even the less advantaged have bought into this notion of privilege and different standards for the upper class, which is sad.



Actually it is common knowledge in Brazil and represented on prime time TV that to follow rules regardless of who makes them is stupid, for suckers. Seriously. In fact there is a common expression to highlight Brazilians attitudes about rules "jeito brasileiro"....the Brazilian way. They are proud of it.
Which explains why in a country with 10 times fewer vehicles they have 9 times as many deaths on the roadway as compared to the USA. Rules are for suckers. You must remember that the roads are not policed they only have rules to keep them safe and this is their response. I have yet to meet a Brazilian that does not think the USA is more dangerous when it comes to crime (per capita).
I have had 2 lawyers 10 minutes into the meeting when I was trying to get custody of my son offer to have the mother murdered. The lawyers had just met me, did not know me from Adam, had no fear.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: jl2saint on December 18, 2009, 01:18:03 PM
Quote from: chopchop;52027
Even with the eyes of the entire world upon them, the Brazilian family continues to act as if they have a legitimate legal claim to prevent Sean from reuniting with his BIOLOGICAL FATHER, completely and utterly ridiculous. The notion, even the assertion, that Brazilian family law could in anyway codify this unbelievable concept is beyond comprehension, yet they continue.
 
To me this is very telling and the prospects do not bode well for this case. I don't think we should kid ourselves about this fact. The family has home court advantage and they intend to hold on to the ball and run out the clock under the protection of a corrupt Brazilian supreme court justice and Article 12 & 13 of the Hague convention treaty.

I really don't think that imposing sanctions or any other penalties will persuade a different outcome because in the real world money is everything...

I agree with everything you said except 4 the above.............

Our President, or our goverment, needs to make Brazil comply thru diplomacy ( never happen ), sanctions, or back room threats................

Until that happens, I have ZERO optimism.........:mad2:
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Wendy on December 18, 2009, 01:18:43 PM
Quote from: chopchop;51986
However, I just don't believe that our Congress or President can come together to save this child. Hell, the democrats hold the house & senate and the presidency and they still can't get anything acomplished, heathcare anyone? Bob even intimated that partisan politics is the central force preventing progress with Davids case here at home. Clearly the Brazilian judical system is corrupt and what I find amazing is that no one is calling them out on it...

ChopChop...just becuse this is the way things have always been done, doesn't mean that it is the way they should CONTINUE being done.  Your president can step in and take a stand, the SOS can step up to the plate and follow-through with the support she promised months ago and yet they are getting ready to enjoy the holidays with their children and families and do nothing while David, Tim and others suffer without THEIR children.  It's time to change the way things HAVE always been done!!  Enough is enough!!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Lexi on December 18, 2009, 01:20:44 PM
Quote from: Mark989;52068
I recall reading an article (by a Brazilian law professor) .....
 
Actually it is common knowledge in Brazil and represented on prime time TV that to follow rules regardless of who makes them is stupid, for suckers. Seriously. In fact their is a common expression to highlight Brazilians attitudes about rules "jeito brasileiro"....the Brazilian way. They are proud of it.
Which explains why in a country with 10 times fewer vehicles they have 9 times as many deaths on the roadway as compared to the USA. Rules are for suckers. You must remember that the roads are not policed they only have rules to keep them safe and this is their response. I have yet to meet a Brazilian that does not think the USA is more dangerous than theirs.
 
I have had 2 lawyers 10 minutes into the meeting when I was trying to get custody of my son offer to have the mother murdered. The lawyers had just met me, did not know me from Adam, had no fear.

Good grief, that takes attorney misconduct to a whole other level. Tell me something, if someone is the victim of a major crime there, do they have any chance of getting justice or is the system too overburdened, underfunded and/or corrupt?
 
Were you able to get custody of your son or are you still fighting for that?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Bree on December 18, 2009, 01:25:01 PM
Quote from: jl2saint;52073
I agree with everything you said except 4 the above.............
 
Our President, or our goverment, needs to make Brazil comply thru diplomacy ( never happen ), sanctions, or back room threats................
 
Until that happens, I have ZERO optimism.........:mad2:

I just heard Obama on CNN talking about the climate meeting in Copenhagen. He said, "THE TIME FOR TALK IS OVER!" I do think that works well for David's case as well. We need less talk and A LOT more action from him and SOS Clinton.
 
ETA:  I saw during an interview that David said he plans to see Sean while he is in Brazil and he has a bag of presents for him (makes me want to cry).  Silvana (witch) said that she had no problem with David seeing Sean.  Soooo....if she is going to be so cooperative, I wonder if she will allow David to take Sean from the "compound"?  Doubtful, I know, but wishful thinking.  They need father-son time without all the eyes and ears at the compound; although, David does need a witness, IMHO.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: Mark989;52068
I have had 2 lawyers 10 minutes into the meeting when I was trying to get custody of my son offer to have the mother murdered. The lawyers had just met me, did not know me from Adam, had no fear.

Mark that is frightening but this is the reality of Brazil. I also think that is why there is such a "cause and effect" disconnect for the people viewing this case here in the states. We are simply dumbfounded by the judicial corruption to a degree that we cannot comprehend that it is real.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Wendy on December 18, 2009, 01:26:45 PM
Quote from: Mark989;52068
I have had 2 lawyers 10 minutes into the meeting when I was trying to get custody of my son offer to have the mother murdered. The lawyers had just met me, did not know me from Adam, had no fear.

Yikes!! That's terrifying! However, based on what's happening in David's case, even had you agreed, you still likely woudn't get your son back...the maid would get custody before you would! I know it seems absurd and crass to make such a statement but I'm not really joking...it seems anyone in Brazil can keep another persons child and it's just fine to do so!  :burn::mad2::mad2::mad2::burn:
 
Did you get your son back?
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Grace on December 18, 2009, 01:27:32 PM
Mark989: "I recall reading an article (by a Brazilian law professor) that said rich Brazilians don't obey the law because it is basically beneath them to do so. It sounded like the law is considered to be for the "little people" - for wealthy Brazilians to obey the law would signify that you don't have status or connections. We saw a very real manifestation of that mindset yesterday with MA's ruling and not for the first time either. It also explains their condescension towards David.
 
What I found more surprising is it suggested something to the effect that a poor Brazilian would say that anyone rich who chose to obey the law is a fool, i.e. they have other options. So it seems like even the less advantaged have bought into this notion of privilege and different standards for the upper class, which is sad."
 
I couldn't agree more..I spent many years in that society...very sad. MAny sociological and historical reasons for it.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Wendy on December 18, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
K...THIS is just sickening!!!
 
"Thursday's ruling, written by Justice Marco Aurelio Mello, found that "at stake is a fully formed life. At stake is the right to come and go, the right of opinion, expression and human dignity"
 
WHAT THE HELL!?!?!  I'm sorry but OMG WHAT?!?!? This guy is a complete and utter MORON!!  Damn right it's at stake...it HAS BEEN FOR FIVE PLUS YEARS!! Where the hell was this guy when Sean was kidnapped...he wasn't crying THEN for Seans rights and human dignity!!! What a saddistic mental moronic &%($*%&($W*%& !! OMG This guy just SO pisses me off!!
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: Jeanne M Hannah on December 18, 2009, 01:29:51 PM
Quote from: Grace;51203
Bring Sean Home just twittered that the decision is going to be announced in 30 minutes (from Globo).


Disgusting "poisoning of the well" on my Blog today.

See Comments 3 and 4 here http://tinyurl.com/y8jhrfr

Jeanne M. Hannah
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: chopchop on December 18, 2009, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Mark989;52068
I have had 2 lawyers 10 minutes into the meeting when I was trying to get custody of my son offer to have the mother murdered. The lawyers had just met me, did not know me from Adam, had no fear.

 
Mark that is frightening but this is the reality of Brazil.  I also think that is why there is such a "cause and effect" disconnect for the people viewing this case here in the states. We are simply dumbfounded by the judicial corruption to a degree that we cannot comprehend that it is real.
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: lovellboys on December 18, 2009, 01:33:03 PM
Quote from: chopchop;52087
Mark that is frightening but this is the reality of Brazil. I also think that is why there is such a "cause and effect" disconnect for the people viewing this case here in the states. We are simply dumbfounded by the judicial corruption to a degree that we cannot comprehend that it is real.

Makes me wish I was rich so I could make a few offers of my own.  Not that I ever would mind you :D
Title: Re: Justice Denied - Again (former title "30 more Minutes")
Post by: momof3inPA on December 18, 2009, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: lovellboys;52088
Makes me wish I was rich so I could make a few offers of my own. Not that I ever would mind you :D

How much of a bribe do you think it would take to get MA to change his mind???!!
 
Just asking.....    :D