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Offline SageDad

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More Appeals
« on: August 13, 2009, 11:18:25 PM »
A week ago my wife filed an appeal against the Supreme Court of her state claiming they violated my son's constitutional rights when they ordered him returned to the United States.  The grounds for that appeal?  Our now two year old son was not allowed to voice his own opinion during the legal proceedings.  He was not allowed to defend himself and the Convention on the Rights of the Child give children the right to have their opinions heard during any legal proceeding, and since he wasn't assigned his own lawyer and allowed a chance to have his own opinions heard the whole past 11 months of legal proceedings should be declared invalid.  That was the entire basis of her appeal.  It was all of six pages, the majority of those six was boilerplate legal terminology.

One might think that such an appeal would be immediately thrown out.  Is the court really supposed to declare the work of 3 courts and 5 judges over 11 months invalid because a 2 year old boy didn't have his own lawyer and wasn't allowed to testify?  Well, if one thinks appeals like that are thrown out they haven't litigated in Mexico.  The return order was immediately suspended until the appeal is decided.  Basically any appeal in Mexico immediately suspends the effect of almost any sentence and always suspends orders for returning children to foreign countries.  

So now we move to a new court.  The sad thing is that the arguments made by my wife and her attorney's have all been equally bad and unfounded, but that really doesn't matter.  The deck is stacked so high against an American father trying to get his child back from a Mexican mother that the she could get a drunk money to represent her in court and win.  It is only by paying a specialist in family and international law that father's like myself have any chance in Mexico at all and even then it is not a good one.  We fight in the courts for years to win a decision that cannot be appealed (assuming the abductor is ever located and served a subpoena) and then hope the order actually gets enforced.
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Offline ananddad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2009, 11:46:22 PM »
Quote from: carlos;45218
A week ago my wife filed an appeal against the Supreme Court of her state claiming they violated my son's constitutional rights when they ordered him returned to the United States. The grounds for that appeal? Our now two year old son was not allowed to voice his own opinion during the legal proceedings. He was not allowed to defend himself and the Convention on the Rights of the Child give children the right to have their opinions heard during any legal proceeding, and since he wasn't assigned his own lawyer and allowed a chance to have his own opinions heard the whole past 11 months of legal proceedings should be declared invalid. That was the entire basis of her appeal. It was all of six pages, the majority of those six was boilerplate legal terminology.
 
One might think that such an appeal would be immediately thrown out. Is the court really supposed to declare the work of 3 courts and 5 judges over 11 months invalid because a 2 year old boy didn't have his own lawyer and wasn't allowed to testify? Well, if one thinks appeals like that are thrown out they haven't litigated in Mexico. The return order was immediately suspended until the appeal is decided. Basically any appeal in Mexico immediately suspends the effect of almost any sentence and always suspends orders for returning children to foreign countries.
 
So now we move to a new court. The sad thing is that the arguments made by my wife and her attorney's have all been equally bad and unfounded, but that really doesn't matter. The deck is stacked so high against an American father trying to get his child back from a Mexican mother that the she could get a drunk money to represent her in court and win. It is only by paying a specialist in family and international law that father's like myself have any chance in Mexico at all and even then it is not a good one. We fight in the courts for years to win a decision that cannot be appealed (assuming the abductor is ever located and served a subpoena) and then hope the order actually gets enforced.

When is the appeal scheduled to be heard? Different child, different parent, different country and different circumstances....the only tragic constant is the never ending stream of appeals. And they call this 'due process'.
"In the end, everything will be okay. If it's not okay, then you have not reached the end." -- Unknown.

Offline SageDad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2009, 01:17:18 AM »
Quote from: ananddad;45219
When is the appeal scheduled to be heard? Different child, different parent, different country and different circumstances....the only tragic constant is the never ending stream of appeals. And they call this 'due process'.


There's something very wrong about a person who unilaterally grabs a child and illegally takes them out of a country complaining about a lack of due process.

The appeal is more or less in process now.  One nice thing about it being so short is that it shouldn't take long to resolve (in theory), but there's no guarranteed time frame for that.  In the appeal she claimed to not know my address, probably hoping I'd not get notified of the appeal -- really stupid since she later included the sentence of the Supreme Court judge that ordered my son explicitly returned... to my address.  There seem to be lots of games that try to file motions or issue sentences without notifying me, the Central Authority of Mexico or the US State Dept.  I am worried that there is some other appeal somewhere, with some other court that we're not aware of.  I am hoping this is resolved in two months so we have some chance of doing something afterwards yet before the court shuts down again for their month long Christmas vacation.
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Offline ananddad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2009, 04:52:37 AM »
Quote from: carlos;45220
There's something very wrong about a person who unilaterally grabs a child and illegally takes them out of a country complaining about a lack of due process.

I was referrring to the Courts by the word 'they' and not the abducting parent. My bloody English!!
 
Quote from: carlos;45220
In the appeal she claimed to not know my address, probably hoping I'd not get notified of the appeal -- really stupid since she later included the sentence of the Supreme Court judge that ordered my son explicitly returned... to my address.

Give them enough rope and ..........:D
 
Quote from: carlos;45220
..yet before the court shuts down again for their month long Christmas vacation.

Looks like Mexican Courts are like Indian Courts..they have more holidays in a calendar year than Elementary School kids.
"In the end, everything will be okay. If it's not okay, then you have not reached the end." -- Unknown.

Offline SageDad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 07:58:22 PM »
We responded to this 6 page appeal with 35 pages on why it was complete crap but earlier this week found out that yet another appeal had been filed.  The first appeal I mentioned earlier in this thread was, by and large, an inappropriate one, much like many of the ones that have been filed in Sean's case.  The correct type of appeal to file against a final State Supreme Court decision is an Amparo Directo and she filed an Amparo Indirecto.  These different types are filed w/ different courts for different types of cases.  In general the Indirecto is used for everything except appealing a final ruling against a high court decision.  We hoped that it was by mistake and had good reason to think it was.  Oftentimes it seems her lawyers have a team of monkeys on typewriters handing in anything that is halfway coherent, but they did file an amparo directo on the last day they were allowed to do so.  We haven't seen it but know it's some 50 pages long.  Although the arguments of her lawyers are nonsense it is actually oftentimes harder to argue against nonsense than logic.  Logical errors are easy to point out but when the whole thing is poorly founded, convoluted nonsense it requires much more effort to untangle it... and so we begin again.  For those that are counting that makes four amparos heard for a total of 6 trials so far (counting the family and State Supreme Court)... and the potential for many more.
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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Offline sue

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 11:10:34 PM »
I would like to know what the hell happened to the six week rule for the Hague?  It seems none of the Countries abide by any of it.  I'm sorry Carlos, when will you be answering this new appeal?  And you are right about fighting the nonsense, it's much harder.

Offline ananddad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 11:48:59 PM »
Carlos, you expecting this nonsense anyway, weren't you? Get to work and start preparing your response. Good luck. We all know you (and truth) will prevail in the end. At the end of it all, in addition to having your son back, you would have the satisfaction of having thrashed her credibility in two separate jurisdictions.
"In the end, everything will be okay. If it's not okay, then you have not reached the end." -- Unknown.

Offline sue

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 10:16:50 AM »
This waiting and not being able to see your child is torture.  It's all so very simple, send the children home and fight for custody there.  To run away with a child to another country is sheer torture for the LBP.  I can't even imagine the pain.

Offline sue

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 12:41:02 PM »
Quote from: carlos;45893
We responded to this 6 page appeal with 35 pages on why it was complete crap but earlier this week found out that yet another appeal had been filed. The first appeal I mentioned earlier in this thread was, by and large, an inappropriate one, much like many of the ones that have been filed in Sean's case. The correct type of appeal to file against a final State Supreme Court decision is an Amparo Directo and she filed an Amparo Indirecto. These different types are filed w/ different courts for different types of cases. In general the Indirecto is used for everything except appealing a final ruling against a high court decision. We hoped that it was by mistake and had good reason to think it was. Oftentimes it seems her lawyers have a team of monkeys on typewriters handing in anything that is halfway coherent, but they did file an amparo directo on the last day they were allowed to do so. We haven't seen it but know it's some 50 pages long. Although the arguments of her lawyers are nonsense it is actually oftentimes harder to argue against nonsense than logic. Logical errors are easy to point out but when the whole thing is poorly founded, convoluted nonsense it requires much more effort to untangle it... and so we begin again. For those that are counting that makes four amparos heard for a total of 6 trials so far (counting the family and State Supreme Court)... and the potential for many more.
Have you seen the amparo directo yet? Anything new with your case?

Offline SageDad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 03:13:36 PM »
Quote from: gail;46378
Have you seen the amparo directo yet? Anything new with your case?


My lawyer is making the five hour drive to be officially notified of it now so I should hear what their arguments are later on tonight.  We were not in a hurry to get officially served notice of the amparo directo because we were waiting for the decision of another father's Hague case that my lawyer currently has before the Supreme Court of Mexico to be published so that we could cite that (favorable) decision in our response.  Once we are legally notified of the amparo we only have 5 working days to respond to it.
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Offline sue

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 06:41:50 PM »
So you now have that favorable decision for your response?  That's good, hopefully it won't be too long of a wait.  I can't believe your attorney drives 5 hours!  Unbelievable.


Offline Bree

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 02:52:53 PM »
Carlos - I have to admit, when I just opened up the poster I got a little choked up.  Sage is just an absolutely beautiful little boy.  I just want to give him a big hug.  As I know you do too.  
 
I will continue to pray that your nightmare is over soon.  Maybe your wife will find her heart and realize that what she is doing to you, and more importantly what she is doing to Sage, is beyond wrong.  
 
Do you have a Facebook page?  Just curious.  I usually add them to my list of causes.
"Every parent who has a child and they tuck him in at night, or her in at night, and they wish the best and only the best and they will always protect the child and do whatever they can, but most of the time they don't have to prove it. I'm in the proving grounds, to myself and to my child.  I have to get him home and I will do whatever I have to. I'll never stop to save him."  --David Goldman

Offline tweinstein

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 03:38:36 PM »
Quote from: carlos;46453
 I'm surprised they've listed Sage as "Endangered Missing" rather than as a "Hague Case".
I think this wording gets a better response from the general public who likely have no idea what a Hague case is.

Offline SageDad

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Re: More Appeals
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 05:47:35 PM »
Quote from: tweinstein;46461
I think this wording gets a better response from the general public who likely have no idea what a Hague case is.


Yes, I agree that it better conveys the seriousness of the situation, but they do have a separate category of missing persons cases called "Hague Case".  I just went back and looked again to see what category Devon's daughter is in and she's in the "Family Abduction" category where Sage also is.  I'm not sure where I saw "Endangered Missing" previously for Sage there.  I don't see it now.

Edit:


Now I know where I saw Endangered Missing.  It says it across the pdf copy of the poster that they sent me.
“What you seek is seeking you.”
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